This bill, therefore, my lords, is, as it has been termed, only an experiment; an experiment, my lords, of a very daring kind, which none would hazard but empirical politicians. It is an experiment to discover how far the vices of the populace may be made useful to the government, what taxes may be raised upon poison, and how much the court may be enriched by the destruction of the subjects.

The tendency of this bill is so evident, that those who appeared as its advocates have rather endeavoured to defeat their opponents by charging their proposals with absurdity, than by extenuating the ill consequence of their own scheme.

Their principal charge is, that those who oppose the bill recommend a total prohibition of all spirits. This assertion gives them an opportunity of abandoning their own cause, to expatiate upon the innocent uses of spirits, of their efficacy in medicine, and their convenience in domestick business, and to advance a multitude of positions which they know will not be denied, but which may be at once made useless to them, by assuring them, that no man desires to destroy the distillery for the pleasure of destroying it, or intends any thing more than some provisions which may hinder distilled spirits from being drunk by common people upon common occasions.

Having thus obviated the only answer that has hitherto been made to the strong arguments which have been offered against the bill, I must declare, that I have heard nothing else that deserves an answer, or that can possibly make any impression in favour of the bill; a bill, my lords, teeming with sedition and idleness, diseases and robberies; a bill that will enfeeble the body, corrupt the mind, and turn the cities of this populous kingdom into prisons for villains, or hospitals for cripples; and which I think it, therefore, our duty to reject.

Lord LONSDALE next spoke to the effect following:—My lords, the bill, on which we are now finally to determine, is of such a tendency, that it cannot be made a law, without an open and avowed disregard of all the rules which it has been hitherto thought the general interest of human nature to preserve inviolable. It is opposite at once to the precepts of the wise, and the practice of the good, to the original principles of virtue and the established maxims of policy.

I shall, however, only consider it with relation to policy, because the other considerations will naturally coincide; for policy is only the connexion of prudence with goodness, and directs only what virtue each particular occurrence requires to be immediately practised.

The first principle of policy, my lords, teaches us, that the power and greatness of a state arises from the number of its people; uninhabited dominions are an empty show, and serve only to encumber the nation to which they belong; they are a kind of pompous ornaments, which must be thrown away in time of danger, and equally unfit for resistance and retreat.

In the present war, my lords, if the number of our people were equal to that of the two nations against which we are engaged, the narrowness of our dominions would give us a resistless superiority; as we have fewer posts to defend, we might send more forces to attack our enemies, who must be weak in every part, because they must be dispersed to a very great extent. The torrent of war, as a flood of water, is only violent while it is confined, but loses its force as it is more diffused.

In consequence of this maxim, my lords, it is proposed, that because we are at war against two mighty powers, we shall endeavour to destroy by spirits at home, those who cannot fall by the sword of the enemy, and that we endeavour to hinder the production of another generation; for it is well known, my lords, and has in this debate been universally allowed, that the present practice of drinking spirits will not only destroy the present race, but debilitate the next.

This surely, my lords, is a time at which we ought very studiously to watch over the preservation of those lives which we are not compelled to expose, and endeavour to retrieve the losses of war by encouraging industry, temperance, and sobriety.

Another principle of government which the wisdom of our progenitors established, was to suppress vice with the utmost diligence; for as vice must always produce misery to those whom it infects, and danger to those who are considered as its enemies, it is contrary to the end of government; and the government which encourages vice is necessarily labouring for its own destruction; for the good will not support it, because they are not benefited by it, and the wicked will betray it, because they are wicked.

How little then, my lords, do our sagacious politicians understand their own interest by promoting drunkenness and luxury, of which the natural train of consequences are idleness, necessity, wickedness, desperation, sedition, and anarchy! How little do they understand what it is that gives stability to the fabrick of our constitution, if they imagine it can long stand, when it is not supported by virtue.

In consequence of these maxims, another may be advanced, that all trades which tend to impair either the health or virtue of the people, should be interdicted; for since the strength of the community consists in the number and happiness of the people, no trade deserves to be cultivated which does not contribute to the one or the other; for the end of trade, as of all other human attempts, is the attainment of happiness.

If any trade that conduces not to the happiness of the community by increasing either the number or the virtue of the people, be industriously cultivated, the legislature ought to suppress it; if any manufacture that administers temptations to wickedness be flourishing and extensive, it has already been too long indulged; and the government can atone for its remissness only by rigorous inhibition, severe prosecutions, and vigilant inquiries.

That the trade of distilling, my lords, had advanced so fast among us, that our manufacturers of poison are arrived at the utmost degree of skill in their profession, and that the draughts which they prepare are greedily swallowed by those who rarely look beyond the present moment, or inquire what price must be paid for the present gratification; that the people have been so long accustomed to daily stupefaction, that they are become mutinous, if they are restrained from it; and that the law which was intended to suppress their luxury cannot, without tumults and bloodshed, be put in execution, are, in my opinion, very affecting considerations, but they can surely be of no use for the defence of this bill.

The more extensive the trade of distilling, the more must swallow the poison which it affords; the more palatable the liquor is made, the more dangerous is the temptation; and the more corrupt the people are become, the more urgent is the necessity of extirpating those that have corrupted them.

I am not, my lords, less convinced of the importance of trade, than those lords who have spoken in the most pathetick language for the continuance of the manufacture; but my regard for trade naturally determines me to vote against a bill by which idleness, the pest of commerce, must be encouraged, and those hands, by which our trade is to be carried on, must be first enfeebled, and soon afterwards destroyed.

Nor is this kind of debauchery, my lords, less destructive to the interest of those whose riches consist in lands, than of those who are engaged in commerce; for it undoubtedly hinders the consumption of almost every thing that land can produce; of that corn which should be made into bread, and brewed into more wholesome drink; of that flesh which is fed for the market, and even of that wool which should be worked into cloth. It has been often mentioned ludicrously, but with too much truth, that strong liquors are to the meaner people, meat, drink, and clothes; that they depend upon them alone for sustenance and warmth, and that they desire to forget their wants in drunkenness rather than supply them. If we, therefore, examine this question with regard to trade, we shall find, that the money which is spent in drunkenness for the advantage only of one distiller, would support, if otherwise expended, a great number of labourers, husbandmen, and traders; since one man employed at the still may supply with the means of debauchery such numbers as could not be furnished with innocent victuals and warm clothes, but by the industry of many hands, and the concurrence of many trades.

Numbers, my lords, are necessary to success in commerce as in war; if the manufacturers be few, labour will be dear, and the value of the commodity must always be proportioned to the price of labour.

These, my lords, are the arguments by which I have hitherto been incited to oppose this bill, which I have not found that any of its defenders can elude or repel; for they content themselves with a cowardly concession to the multitude, allow them to proceed in wickedness, confess they have found themselves unable to oppose their sovereign pleasure, or to withhold them from pursuing their own inclinations; and, therefore, have sagaciously contrived a scheme, by which they hope to gain some advantage from the vices which they cannot reform.

But who, my lords, can, without horrour and indignation, hear those who are entrusted with the care of the publick, contriving to take advantage of the ruin of their country?

Let others, my lords, vote as their consciences will direct them, I shall likewise follow the dictates of my heart, and shall avoid any concurrence with a scheme, which, though it may for a time benefit the government, must destroy the strength and virtue of the people, and at once impair our trade and depopulate our country.

Lord CARTERET then rose up, and spoke in substance as follows:—My lords, the warmth with which this debate has been hitherto carried on, and with which the progress of this bill has been opposed, is, in my opinion, to be imputed to strong prejudices, formed when the question was first proposed; by which the noble lords have been incited to warm declamations and violent invectives; who, having once heated their minds with suspicions, have not been able to consider the propositions before them with calmness and impartiality; but have pursued their first notions, and have employed their eloquence in displaying the absurdity of positions never advanced, and the mischief of consequences which will never be produced.

It is first to be considered, my lords, that this bill is intended, not to promote, but to hinder, the consumption of spirituous liquors; it is, therefore, by no means necessary to expatiate upon that which is presupposed in the bill, the pernicious quality of spirits, the detestable nature of drunkenness, the wickedness or miseries which are produced by it. Almost all that has been urged by the noble lords who have spoken with the greatest warmth against the bill, may reasonably be conceived to have been advanced for it by those who projected it; of whom it may be justly imagined, that they were fully convinced how much spirits were abused by the common people, and how much that abuse contributed to the wickedness which at present prevails amongst us, since they thought it necessary to prevent them by a new law.

But, my lords, when they saw that the abuse of distilled liquors was in a very high degree detrimental to the publick, they saw, likewise, that the trade of distilling was of great use; that it employed great numbers of our people, and consumed a great part of the produce of our lands; and that, therefore, it could not be suppressed, without injuring the publick, by reducing many families to sudden poverty, and by depriving the farmers of a market for a great part of their corn. In the plains of the western part of this island, the grain that is chiefly cultivated is barley, and that barley is chiefly consumed by the distillers; nor, if they should be at once suppressed, could the husbandman readily sell the produce of his labour and his grounds, or the landlord receive rent for his estate; since it would then produce nothing, or what is in effect the same, nothing that could be sold.

It is, indeed, possible, my lords, that the Dutch might buy it; but then it must be considered, that we must pay them money for the favour, since we allow a premium upon exportation, and that we shall buy it back again in spirits, and, consequently, pay them for manufacturing our own product. For it is not to be imagined, that any law will immediately reclaim the dispositions, or reform the appetites of the people. They are well known to have drank spirits before they were made in our country, and to indulge themselves at present in many kinds of luxury which are yet loaded with a very high tax. It is not, therefore, probable, that upon the imposition of a high duty they will immediately desist from drinking spirits; they will, indeed, as now, drink those which can be most easily procured; and if, by a high tax suddenly imposed, foreign spirits be made cheaper than our own, foreign spirits will only be used, our distillery will be destroyed, and our people will yet not be reformed.

That heavy taxes will not deter the people from any favourite enjoyment, has been already shown by the unsuccessfulness of the last attempt to restrain them from the use of spirits, and may be every day discovered from the use of tobacco, which is universally taken by the common people, though a very high duty is laid upon it, and though a king thought it so pernicious that he employed his pen against it. The commons, therefore, prudently forbore to use violent measures, which might disgust the people, but which they had no reason to believe sufficient to reform them, and thought it more expedient to proceed by more gentle methods, which might operate by imperceptible degrees, and which might be made more forcible and compulsive, if they should be found ineffectual.

Another evil will by this method, likewise, be avoided, which is the certain consequence of high duties; this tax will produce no clandestine frauds nor rebellious defiance of the legislature; the distillers will not be tempted to evade this impost by perjuries, too often practised where the profit of them is great, nor smugglers to assemble in numerous troops with arms in their hands, and carry imported liquors through the country by force, in opposition to the officers of the customs, and the laws of the nation. That this, likewise, is practised upon other occasions to escape heavy taxes, all the weekly papers inform us; nor are there many months in which some of the king's officers are not maimed or murdered doing of their duty.

All these evils, my lords, and a thousand others, will be avoided by an easy tax; in favour of which I cannot but wonder, that it should be necessary to plead so long, since every nation, which has any pretension to civility or a regular government, will agree, that heavy imposts are not to be wantonly inflicted, and that severity is never to be practised till lenity has failed.

It, therefore, appears to me, my lords, that justice, reason, and experience, unite in favour of this bill; and that nothing is to be feared from it, but that it will not be sufficiently coercive, nor restrain the abuse of spirits so much as is hoped by those that have stood up in its vindication. That it can encourage drunkenness, or increase the consumption of distilled liquors, is surely impossible; for they are now drunk without restraint; and therefore no restraint will be taken away: and since their price must be increased by a double duty, it may reasonably be conceived, that those who now spend all that they can gain by their labour in drunkenness, must be content with less than before, because they will have no more to spend; and what has hitherto enabled them to riot in debauchery will no longer be sufficient for the same purposes; the same excess will require more money, and more money cannot be had.

I do not affirm, my lords, that the success of this bill is demonstrably certain; nor can I deny that many arguments have been alleged against it which cannot easily be confuted; all that I can venture to assert is, that in my opinion, the reasons for the bill preponderate, not that those against it, are without weight.

Of this, at least, we are certain, that the bill can produce no ill consequences; and that if the experience of the ensuing year shall show it to be ineffectual, it may be amended in the next session by new provisions, which we shall be then more able to adjust for the benefit of the publick.

All laws, especially those which regard complicated and intricate affairs, have been perfected by degrees; experience has discovered those deficiencies which sagacity could not foresee, and the progress of human wisdom has been always slow. To charge any scheme with imperfection, is only to allege that it is the production of men, of beings finite in their capacity, and liable to errour; nor do I see what can be recommended to such beings, more than what the government is now endeavouring to practise, that nothing should be done precipitately, and that experience should always be trusted rather than conjecture.

Lord LONSDALE next spoke to the effect following:—My lords, the arguments of the noble lord have by no means influenced me to alter my opinion; nor do I now rise up to pronounce a recantation of any of my former assertions, but to explain one of them, which the noble lord has been pleased to controvert.

He observes, in opposition to my argument, that the distillery contributes to the consumption of the produce of our grounds, and, by consequence, to the advantage of those who possess them; but I, my lords, am inclined to believe that it produces a contrary effect, and that it hinders the consumption, even of that grain which is employed in it.

We may reasonably suppose, my lords, that they who now drink distilled liquors, would, if they were debarred from them, endeavour to obtain from ale and beer the same renovation of their vigour, and relaxation of their cares; and that, therefore, more ale would be brewed, as there would be more purchasers: if, therefore, the same quantity of malt, which is sufficient, when distilled, to produce intoxication, would, when brewed into ale, have the same effect, the consumption would still be the same, whether ale or spirits were in use; but it is certain, that the fourth part of the malt which is necessary to furnish ale for a debauch, will, when exalted in the still, be sufficient to satisfy the most greedy drunkard; and it is, therefore, evident, that he who drinks ale, consumes more barley by three parts in four than he who indulges, the use of spirits, supposing them both equally criminal in the excess of their enjoyments.

The noble lord has taken occasion to mention tobacco as an instance of the obstinacy with which the people persevere in a practice to which they are addicted. Of the obstinacy of the people, my lords, I am sufficiently convinced; but hope that it will never be able to overpower the legislature, who ought to enforce their laws, and invigorate their efforts in proportion to the atrociousness of the corruption which they are endeavouring to extirpate: nor do I think so meanly of government, as to believe it unable to repress drunkenness or luxury, or in danger of being subverted in a contest about spirits or tobacco.

Tobacco, indeed, has not properly been produced as an instance; for I never heard, that however it may be disapproved by particular men, of whatever rank or abilities, it was prohibited by law; nor should I think any such prohibition necessary or reasonable; for tobacco, my lords, is not poison, like distilled spirits, nor is the use of it so much injurious to health, as offensive to delicacy.

The poisonous and destructive quality of these liquors is confessed by the noble lord, a confession with which I find it very difficult to reconcile his solicitude for the distillery; for when it is once granted, that spirits corrupt the mind, weaken the limbs, impair virtue, and shorten life, any arguments in favour of those who manufacture them come too late, since no advantage can be equivalent to the loss of honesty and life. When the noble lord has urged that the distillery employs great numbers of hands, and, therefore, ought to be encouraged, may it not, upon his own concession, be replied, that those numbers are employed in murder, and that their trade ought, like that of other murderers, to be stopped? When he urges that much of our grain is consumed in the still, may we not answer, and answer irresistibly, that it is consumed by being turned into poison, instead of bread? And can a stronger argument be imagined for the suppression of this detestable business, than that it employs multitudes, and that it is gainful and extensive?

Nor can I discover, my lords, how the care of preserving the distillery is consistent with the ends which the preamble in this bill declares to be proposed, or which the advocates for it appear to desire. If the consumption of distilled spirits is to be hindered, how is the distillery to remain uninjured? If the trade of distilling is not to be impaired, what shall hinder the consumption of spirits? So far as this bill operates, the distillers must be impoverished by it; and if they may properly and justly suffer a small diminution of their profit for a small advantage to the publick, why will not a greater benefit be equivalent to a greater diminution?

Nothing, my lords, is more apparent, than that the real design of this bill, however its defenders may endeavour to conceal it in the mist of sophistry, is to lay only such a tax as may increase the revenue; and that they have no desire of suppressing that vice which may be made useful to their private purpose, nor feel any regret to fill the exchequer by the slaughter of the people.

Lord AYLESFORD then rose up, and spoke to the following purpose:—My lords, the noble lord who spoke last in defence of this new scheme, appears to have imbibed very strong prejudices in favour of the distillery, from which he finds it practicable to draw large sums for the support of the measures which have been already formed, and which he, therefore, considers as the most important and beneficial trade of the British nation.

It is not improbable, my lords, that in a short time all the provisions which have been made by the wisdom of our ancestors for the support of the woollen manufacture, will be transferred for the encouragement of the distillery, which appears to be at present the reigning favourite; for it is evident, that both manufactures cannot subsist together, and that either must be continued by the ruin of the other.

Of these rivals, which is doomed to fall we may conjecture from the encomium just now bestowed upon the prudence of the commons, by whom the darling distillery has been so tenderly treated; yet that the trade, in which the bounty of nature has enabled us to excel all other nations of the world, may not be suffered to perish in silence, I will take this opportunity to declare, that this boasted prudence can, in my opinion, produce no other effects than poverty and ruin, private calamities, and general wickedness; that by encouraging drunkenness at the expense of trade, it will stop all the currents by which the gold of foreign nations has flowed upon us, and expose us to conquest and to slavery.

[Thus ended this memorable debate. The question being put, was determined in favour of the bill by 57 against 38.]

END