But I hope, my lords, that we shall act upon very different principles; that we shall examine the most distant consequences of our resolutions, and consider ourselves, not as the agents of the crown to levy taxes, but as the guardians of the people to promote the publick happiness; that we shall always remember that happiness can be produced only by virtue; and that since this bill can tend only to the increase of debauchery, we shall, without the formality of a commitment, unanimously reject it with indignation and abhorrence.

Lord CARTERET spoke to the following effect:—My lords, the bill now before us has been examined with the utmost acuteness, and opposed with all the arts of eloquence and argumentation; nor has any topick been forgotten that could speciously be employed against it. It has been represented by some as contrary to policy, and by others as opposite to religion; its consequences have been displayed with all the confidence of prediction, and the motives upon which it has been formed, declared to be such as I hope every man abhors who projected or defends it.

It has been asserted, that this bill owes its existence only to the necessity of raising taxes for the support of unnecessary troops, to be employed in useless and dangerous expeditions; and that those who defend it have no regard to the happiness or virtue of the people, nor any other design than to raise supplies, and gratify the ministry.

In pursuance of this scheme of argument, the consequences of this bill have been very artfully deduced, and very copiously explained; and it has been asserted that by passing it, we shall show ourselves the patrons of vice, the defenders of debauchery, and the promoters of drunkenness.

It has been declared, that in consequence of this law, by which the use of distilled liquors is intended to be restrained, the retailers of them will be multiplied, and multiplied without end; till the corruption, which is already too extensive, is become general, and the nation is transformed into a herd of drunkards.

With regard to the uses to which the money which shall arise from this tax is to be applied, though it has been more than once mentioned in this debate, I shall pass it over, as without any connexion with the question before us. To confound different topicks may be useful to those whose design is to impose upon the inattention or weakness of their opponents, as they may be enabled by it to alter sometimes the state of the controversy, and to hide their fallacies in perplexity and confusion; but always to be avoided by those who endeavour to discover and to establish truth, who dispute not to confound but to convince, and who intend not to disturb the publick deliberations, but assist them.

I shall, therefore, my lords, only endeavour to show that the consequence, of which some lords express, and I believe with sincerity, such dreadful apprehensions, is not in reality to be feared from this bill; that it will probably promote the purpose for which it is declared to be calculated, and that it will by no means produce that havock in the human species which seems to be suspected, or diffuse that corruption through the people which has been confidently foretold.

The present state of this vice, my lords, has been fully explained, as well by those who oppose the bill as by those who defend it. The use of distilled liquors is now prohibited by a penal law, but the execution of this law, as of all others of the same kind, necessarily supposes a regular information of the breach of it to be laid before the magistrate. The people consider this law, however just or necessary, as an act of the most tyrannical cruelty, which ought to be opposed with the utmost steadiness and vigour, as an insupportable hardship from which they ought at any rate to set themselves free.

They have determined, therefore, not to be governed by this law, and have, consequently, endeavoured to hinder its execution; and so vigorous have been their efforts, that they have at last prevailed. At first they only opposed it by their perseverance and obstinacy, they resolved to persist in the practice of retailing liquors without regard to the penalties which they might incur by it; and, therefore, as one was put to prison, his place was immediately supplied by another; and so frequent were the informations and so fruitless the penalties, that the chief magistrate of the metropolis lamented publickly in the other house, the unpleasing necessity to which he was subjected by that law, of fining and imprisoning without end, and without hopes of procuring the reformation that was intended. Thus they proceeded for some time, and appeared to hope that the magistrates would after a while connive at a practice, which they should find no degree of severity sufficient to suppress; that they would sink under the fatigue of punishing to no purpose, that they would by degrees relax their vigilance, and leave the people in quiet possession of that felicity which they appeared to rate at so high a price.

At length, my lords, instead of wearying the magistrates, they grew weary themselves, and determined no longer to bear persecution for their enjoyments, but to resist that law which they could not evade, and to which they would not submit. They, therefore, determined to mark out all those who by their informations promoted its execution, as publick enemies, as wretches who, for the sake of a reward, carried on a trade of perjury and persecution, and who harassed their innocent neighbours only for carrying on a lawful employment for supplying the wants of the poor, relieving the weariness of the labourer, administering solace to the dejected, and cordials to the sick.

The word was, therefore, given that no informer should be spared; and when an offender was summoned by the civil officers, crowds watched at the door of the magistrate to rescue the prisoner, and to discover and seize the witness upon whose testimony he was convicted; and unfortunate was the wretch who, with the imputation of this crime upon him, fell into their hands; it is well remembered by every man who at that time was conversant in this city, with what outcries of vengeance an informer was pursued in the publick streets, and in the open day; with what exclamations of triumph he was seized, and with what rage of cruelty he was tormented.

One instance of their fury I very particularly remember: as a man was passing along the streets, the alarm was given that he was an informer against the retailers of spirituous liquors, the populace were immediately gathered as in a time of common danger, and united in the pursuit as of a beast of prey, which it was criminal not to destroy; the man discovered, either by consciousness or intelligence, his danger, and fled for his life with the utmost precipitation; but no housekeeper durst afford him shelter, the cry increased upon him on all hands, and the populace rolled on after him with a torrent not to be resisted; and he was upon the point of being overtaken, and like some others destroyed, when one of the greatest persons in the nation, hearing the tumult, and inquiring the reason, opened his doors to the distressed fugitive, and sheltered him from a cruel death.

Soon afterwards there was a stop put to all information; no man dared afterwards, for the sake of a reward, expose himself to the fury of the people, and the use of these destructive liquors was no longer obstructed. How much the practice of this kind of debauchery prevailed, after this short restraint, and how much the consumption of these destructive liquors has increased, the noble lord who spoke last has very accurately informed us, nor can any argument be offered for the present bill more strong than that which his computations have already furnished.

For if it appears, my lords, and it cannot be doubted after such authentick testimonies, that seven millions of gallons of spirits are every year consumed in this kingdom, and that of these far the greatest quantity is wasted in the most flagitious and destructive debauchery; it is surely at length necessary to consider by what means this consumption, which cannot be stopped, may be lessened, and this vice obstructed, which cannot be reformed.

By opening a sufficient number of licensed shops, the number of unlicensed retailers will be necessarily lessened, and by raising the price of the liquor, the quantity which the poor drink must, with equal certainty, be diminished; and as it cannot be imagined that the number of those who will pay annually for licenses, can be equal to that of the petty traders, who now dispose of spirits in cellars and in the streets; it is reasonable to believe that since there will be fewer sellers, less will be sold.

Some lords have, indeed, declared their suspicion, that the number of licensed shops will be such as will endanger the health of the people, and the peace of the commonwealth; and one has so far indulged his imagination, as to declare that he expects fifteen hundred shops to be set open for the sale of spirits, in a short time after the publication of this law.

If it be answered, that no spirits can be sold but by those who keep a house of publick entertainment by a license from the justices of the peace, the opponents of the bill have a reply ready, that the justices will take all opportunities to promote the increase of the revenue, and will always grant a license when it is demanded, without regard to the mischiefs that may arise from the increase of the retreats of idleness and receptacles of vice; and that, therefore, to allow justices to grant licenses for the retail of any commodity upon which a tax is laid, is to permit the sale of it without limits.

But, my lords, this argument will vanish, when it is considered that those justices to whom the law commits the superintendency of publick-houses, are superintended themselves by men who derive their authority from a higher power, and whose censures are more formidable than judicial penalties. The conduct of the justices, my lords, as of every other person, lies open to the observation of the reverend clergy, by whose counsels it is to be regulated, and by whose admonitions it ought to be reformed; admonitions which cannot be supposed to be without force from men to whom the great province of preaching virtue and truth is committed, and whose profession is so much reverenced, that reputation and infamy are generally in their power.

Should the justices, my lords, abuse their authority, either for the increase of the revenue, or any other purpose, what could they expect but to be marked out on the next day of publick worship for reproach and derision? What could they hope but that their crimes should be displayed in the most odious view to their neighbours, their children, and their dependants; and that all those from whom nature or interest teaches them to desire friendship, reverence, or esteem, will be taught to consider them as the slaves of power and the agents of villany, as the propagators of debauchery, and the enemies of mankind?

There is, therefore, my lords, reason to hope that the bill may be useful, because it will be hindered from being detrimental; and as there is an absolute necessity of doing something, and no better method can at present be proposed, I think this ought not to be rejected. We have found by experience that the publick is not to be reformed at once, and that the progress from corruption to reformation must be gradual; and as this bill enforces some degrees of amendment, it is at least more eligible than the present law, which is wholly without effect, because no man will dare to put it in execution.

Every man must be convinced, by his own experience, of the difficulty with-which long habits are surmounted. I myself suffer some indulgence which yet I cannot prevail upon myself to forbear; this indulgence is the use of too much snuff, to which it is well known that many persons of rank are not less addicted; and, therefore, I do not wonder that the law is ineffectual, which is to encounter with the habits and appetites of the whole mass of the common people.

For this reason, my lords, I cannot approve what has been recommended in this debate, any new law that may put the enjoyment of this liquor yet farther from them, by facilitating prosecutions, or enforcing penalties, as I am convinced that the natural force of the people is superiour to the law, and that their natural force will be exerted for the defence of their darling spirits, and the whole nation be shaken with universal sedition.

It has been objected by the noble lord, that the tax now proposed is such as never was raised in any government, because, though luxury may confessedly be taxed, vice ought to be constantly suppressed; and this, in his lordship's opinion, is a tax upon vice.

His lordship's distinction between luxury and vice, between the use of things unlawful, and the excess of things lawful, is undoubtedly just, but by no means applicable on this occasion; nor, indeed, has the noble lord, with all his art, been able to apply it; for he was obliged to change the terms in his argument; and, instead of calling this tax, a tax upon strong liquors, to stigmatize it with the odious appellation of a tax upon drunkenness.

To call any thing what it really is not, and then to censure it, is very easy; too easy, my lords, to be done with success. To confute the argument it is only necessary to observe, that this tax is not a tax upon drunkenness, but a tax laid upon strong liquors for the prevention of drunkenness; and, by consequence, such as falls within the compass of his own definition.

That it is not a tax upon luxury cannot be inferred from the indigence of those whom it is intended to reform; for luxury is, my lords, ad modum possidentis, of different kinds, in proportion to different conditions of life, and one man may very decently enjoy those delicacies or pleasures to which it would be foolish and criminal in another to aspire. Whoever spends upon superfluities what he must want for the necessities of life, is luxurious; and excess, therefore, of distilled spirits may be termed, with the utmost propriety, the luxury of the poor.

This, my lords, appeared to be the opinion of the noble lord who spoke so copiously on this question at the beginning of the debate; of this opinion was the reverend prelate when he observed, that necessity itself was become luxurious, and of this opinion must every man be who advises such a duty to be laid upon these liquors as may at once debar the poor from the use of them; for such a proposal evidently supposes them unnecessary, and all enjoyment of things not necessary is a degree of luxury.

To tax this luxury, which is, perhaps, the most pernicious of all others, is now proposed; but it is proposed to tax it only to suppress it, to suppress it by such slow degrees as may be borne by the people; and I hope a law so salutary will not be opposed only because it may afford the government a present supply.

The duke of NEWCASTLE then rose up, and spoke to the following effect:—My lords, I am of opinion that this debate would have been much shorter, had not the noble lords who have spoken in it suffered themselves to be led away, either by their own zeal, or the zeal of their opponents, from the true state of the question, to which I shall take the liberty of recalling their attention, that this important controversy may have at length an end.

The point, the only point that is, in my opinion, now to be considered, is this: the people of this nation have for some time practised a most pernicious and hateful kind of debauchery; against which several laws have been already made, which experience has shown to be so far without effect, that the disorder has every year increased among them; [while the duke was speaking, the bishop of ORFORD said, without intention to be overheard, "Yes, that is the true state of the case," upon which the duke stopped, and asked whether his lordship had any objection to make, who answered that he had no design of interrupting him; and he, therefore, proceeded.] A new law, therefore, is proposed, less severe, indeed, than the former, but which it is hoped will be for that reason more efficacious; this law having passed through the other house, is now, in the common course of our procedure, to be considered by us in a committee.

We are now, my lords, therefore, to resolve, whether a bill for the reformation of this flagrant vice deserves any farther deliberation, whether we shall join with the other house in their endeavours to restore the ancient sobriety and virtue of the British people, or, by an open disapprobation of their attempt, discourage them from prosecuting their design, and debar them from using the opportunities that succeeding years may afford, and the new lights which experience may supply for improving this essay, however imperfect, to a salutary and unexceptionable law.

The prelates whose laudable zeal for the promotion of virtue has prompted them to distinguish themselves on this occasion by an uncommon warmth of opposition, ought, as they appear fully sensible of the calamities which intemperance brings upon mankind, to consider likewise the consequences of refusing to examine, in a committee, a bill professedly drawn up to restrain intemperance. They ought to remember, that by rejecting this bill without a particular examination of the several clauses which it contains, and without those particular objections which such examinations necessarily produce, we shall discover a contempt of the wisdom or virtue of the other house, which may incline them in their turn to obstruct the measures of the government, or at least to neglect that evil, however great, for the redress of which they have no reason to expect our concurrence.

Those whose particular province it is to inspect the lives of the people, to recal them from vice, and strengthen them in virtue, should certainly reflect on this occasion, that the safest method ought to be chosen; and, therefore, that this bill ought to be promoted; because, not to affirm too much, it is possible that it may produce some degree of reformation; and the worst that can be feared is, that, like the present law, it will be ineffectual; for the corruption and licentiousness of the people are already such, that nothing can increase them.

The bishop of SARUM then spoke to the following purpose:—My lords, I am so far from being convinced by the arguments of the noble duke, that the bill now before us ought to be committed without farther opposition, that, in my opinion, nothing can be more unworthy of the honour of this house, or more unsuitable to the character which those who sit on this bench ought to desire, than to agree to any vote which may have the most distant appearance of approbation.

That a bill drawn up for the reformation of manners, for the restraint of a predominant and destructive vice, for the promotion of virtue, and the enforcement of religion, ought, at least, to be calmly and particularly considered; that the laudable endeavours of the commons ought not to be discouraged by a precipitate and contemptuous rejection of the measures which they have formed for the attainment of a purpose so important, is, indeed, a specious and plausible method of persuasion; but, my lords, it can affect only those who come to deliberate upon this bill without having read it.

A very slight and cursory perusal of the bill, my lords, will dissipate all the mists which eloquence can raise; it will show that the law now proposed can neither be useful nor ineffectual, but that it must operate very powerfully, though in a manner by no means agreeable to its title.

To prevent the excessive use of any thing, by allowing it to be sold without restraint, is an expedient which the wisdom of no former age ever discovered; it is, indeed, a fallacy too gross to be admitted, even by the most inconsiderate negligence, or the most contemptuous stupidity; nor am I at all inclined to believe, that the commons will impute the rejection of this bill to our disregard of virtue, or think that we have defeated any endeavours for the suppression of wickedness.

It has been affirmed, that though by the bill the sale is permitted, it is permitted only because it cannot be hindered; and that the price is raised so high, that, though the lawful venders may be multiplied, the number of the purchasers must be diminished. But even this argument, like all others that have yet been advanced, is confuted by the bill itself, from which the tax now proposed appears to be such as, when subdivided by the small measures in which retailers sell these liquors, will scarcely be perceived, and which, though it may enrich the government, will not impoverish the people, except by destroying their health, and enervating their limbs.

The tax, my lords, even supposing it paid without any method of evasion, is so low, that in a quarter of a pint, the quantity which the lower people usually demand at once, it does not amount to any denomination of money; and so small an addition will be easily overbalanced by the sale of a larger quantity than formerly; for it cannot be doubted but the practice which prevailed in opposition to the law, will grow yet more predominant by its encouragement; and that, therefore, the advantage of a large and quick sale, will lessen the price more than so slight a tax can possibly increase it.

The noble duke has endeavoured to reduce us to difficulties, by urging, that since the corruption of the people cannot be greater, we ought willingly to agree to any law, of which the title declares that it is intended to produce a reformation, because the worst that can be feared is, that it may be without effect.

But, my lords, such is the enormous absurdity of this bill, that no plea can be offered for it with the least appearance of reason; and the greatest abilities, when they are exerted in its defence, are able only to show, by fruitless efforts, that it cannot be vindicated. If the state of the nation be really such as has been supposed, if the most detestable and odious vice has overspread the kingdom to its utmost limits, if the people are universally abandoned to drunkenness, sloth, and villany, what can be more absurd than to trifle with doubtful experiments, and to make laws which must be suspected of inefficacy? In the diseases of the state, as in those of the body, the force of the remedy ought to be proportioned to the strength and danger of the disease; and surely no political malady can be more formidable than the prevalence of wickedness, nor can any time require more firmness, vigilance, and activity, in the legislative power.

That the law, therefore, may be without effect, is, in the present state of corruption, if it has been truly represented, a sufficient reason for rejecting it, without allowing it to be committed; because there is now no time for indulgence, or for delays; a nation universally corrupt, must be speedily reformed, or speedily ruined. Those habits which have been confessed to be already too powerful for the laws now in being, may in a short time be absolutely irresistible; and that licentiousness which intimidates the officers of justice, may in another year insult the legislature.

But, my lords, I am yet willing to hope that the noble duke's account of the wickedness of the people, was rather a rhetorical exaggeration, uttered in the ardour of dispute, than a strict assertion of facts; and am of opinion that, though vice has, indeed, of late spread its contagion with great rapidity, there are yet great numbers uninfected, and cannot believe that our condition is such as that nothing can make it more miserable.

In many parts of the country, my lords, these liquors have not yet been much used, nor is it likely that those who have never sold them, when the law allowed them, will begin an unnecessary trade, when it will expose them to penalties. But a new law in favour of spirits will produce a general inclination, and a kind of emulation will incite every one to take a license for the retail of this new liquor; and so every part of the kingdom will be equally debauched, and no place will be without a vender of statutable poison. The luxury of the vulgar, for luxury, in my opinion, it may very properly be called, will still increase, and vices and diseases will increase with it.

There is at least one part of the nation yet untainted, a part which deserves the utmost care of the legislature, and which must be endangered by a law like this before us. The children, my lords, to whom the affairs of the present generation must be transferred, and by whom the nation must be continued, are surely no ignoble part of the publick. They are yet innocent, and it is our province to take care that they may in time be virtuous; we ought, therefore, to remove from before them those examples that may infect, and those temptations that may corrupt them. We ought to reform their parents, lest they should imitate them; and to destroy those provocatives to vice, by which the present generation has been intoxicated, lest they should with equal force operate upon the next.

There is, therefore, no occasion, my lords, for any farther deliberation upon this bill; which, if the nation be yet in any part untainted, will infect it; and if it be universally corrupted, will have no tendency to amend it; and which we ought, for these reasons to reject, that our abhorrence of vice may be publickly known, and that no part of the calamities which wickedness must produce, may be imputed to us.

Lord DELAWARE then spoke to the following effect:—My lords, as I am entirely of opinion that a more accurate examination of this bill will evince its usefulness and propriety to many of the lords who are now most ardent in opposing it, I cannot but think it necessary to consider it in a committee.

It is to be remembered, my lords, that this bill is intended for two purposes of very great importance to the publick; it is designed that the liberties of mankind shall be secured by the same provisions by which the vices of our own people are to be reclaimed, and supplies for carrying on the war shall be raised by a reformation of the manners of the people.

This, my lords, is surely a great and generous design; this is a complication of publick benefits, worthy the most exalted virtue, and the most refined policy; and though a bill in which views so distant are to be reconciled, should appear not to be absolutely perfect, it must yet be allowed to deserve regard; nor ought we to reject, without very cautious deliberation, any probable method of reforming the nation, or any easy way of raising supplies.

The encroachment of usurpation without, and the prevalence of vice within, is a conjunction of circumstances very dangerous; and to remove both by the same means, is an undertaking that surely cannot deserve either censure or contempt: if it succeeds, it may demand the loudest acclamations; and if it fails, must be at least approved.

The use, my lords, of spirituous liquors, though in the excess now so frequently to be observed, undoubtedly detrimental to multitudes, is not, in a proper degree, either criminal or unwholesome; and, therefore, ought not to be prohibited by a tax so heavy as has been proposed by a noble lord, who, if he pursues his reasoning, must propose to tax in the same proportion every other liquor that can administer to vice.

It is, however, certain, that too much is wasted in riot and debauchery; and that, therefore, some addition to the price of this liquor ought to be made, that, though the use of it may be continued, the excess may be restrained.

What will be the effects of this bill, and whether either of these benefits are to be expected from it, can be known only by an impartial examination; and therefore it ought to be discussed with that accuracy which is peculiar to a committee.

Lord LONSDALE here got up again, and spoke to this purpose:—My lords, that a bill which shall restrain the excess of drinking distilled liquors without hindering their moderate use, will deserve the applause of every lover of his country, I cannot deny; but that any such bill can be contrived, may very justly be doubted; for in proportion to their price they will always be used, and nothing can hinder excess but a high tax, such as I have already proposed.

The bill now before us, my lords, will, indeed, by no means obstruct the moderate use, because it will give an unbounded license to the most luxurious excess; if, therefore, nothing more be intended in the committee, than to consider how far this bill will promote the reformation of the people, it is surely not necessary to engage in any farther inquiries.

It has appeared already, to those who do not obstinately shut their eyes, that there is in it no provision for the prevention of that abuse of spirits which universally prevails. It has appeared, that the cheapness of licenses will not hinder the present retailers from carrying on an illegal trade; that information will not now be more safe or more frequent than before, and that the duty, if not in part evaded, may yet be probably abated from the present profits of the sale.

It has appeared, my lords, that no effect can be produced by this bill but the promotion of debauchery, the increase of drunkenness, the subversion of order, and the decay of industry; the miseries of disease, and the rage of want.

But that this bill will not produce, at least for some time, a large addition to the publick revenues, has not yet been proved; and while it is allowed that it will raise money, I do not wonder to hear it steadily defended, because nothing more is expected from it. But as I have not yet conversed enough with statesmen to persuade myself that the government ought to be supported by means contrary to the end for which government is instituted, I am still convinced that this bill ought to be rejected with contempt, because it will lessen the wealth of the nation without any equivalent advantage, and will at once impoverish the people, and corrupt them.

Lord ISLAY then spoke to this effect:—My lords, I cannot but be of opinion that this debate has been carried on with a vehemence by no means necessary, and that the question has been perplexed by a mistaken zeal, that the effects of this bill have been exaggerated, perhaps, on both sides, and that the opinions which have been formed with relation to it, are not really so opposite as they appear.

Those who oppose the bill, think the duty upon spirits not so high as to hinder that debauchery which so much prevails among us; and those that vindicate it, declare that more violent restraints will not be borne. Both parties have reason, and the vindicators of the bill have, likewise, experience on their side.

But, my lords, though severe restraints suddenly opposed to the habits and inclinations of the people, operating in their full force, may be broken through by restless struggles and obstinate resistance, yet a diminution of those gratifications will be borne which cannot wholly be taken away, and the same laws, introduced by proper degrees, will be patiently obeyed; this, therefore, may be very properly considered as the first tax necessary to be laid, which, though it may produce no great effects in itself, may at least make way for a second that shall be more sensibly felt, till at length these fatal spirits shall be raised to a price at which few will be able, and none willing, to purchase one pleasure of drunkenness.

But it is not impossible that even this tax, with the other provisions in the bill, may produce the reformation which is unanimously desired; and as violence should never be used till gentle methods have been tried, this bill ought, in my opinion, to be passed, and, therefore, to be referred to a committee without farther debate; for it will be thought, both by our allies and our enemies, that a great part of this assembly is very indifferent about the success of the war, if we delay the supplies, by disputing in what manner they shall be raised.

[The question being then put, whether the bill shall be committed, it was carried in the affirmative. And the lords DELAWARE and HERVEY being appointed tellers, the numbers were, Contents 59, Proxies 23—82. Not contents 38, Proxies 16—54.

It was remarked on this occasion, that there being ten prelates in the house, they all divided against the question; upon which the earl of CHESTERFIELD seeing them come towards him, said, he doubted if he had not mistaken the side, not having had the honour of their company for many years.

Two days after, the same bill was considered by the house of lords in a committee to which all of them were summoned, and occasioned another very important and curious debate.]

FEBRUARY 23, 1742-3.

The title of the bill on spirituous liquors being read, was postponed: then the preamble was read, importing, "that whereas great difficulties and inconveniencies had attended the putting the act 9 Geo. II. in execution, and the same had not been found effectual to answer the purposes intended," the commons being desirous to raise the necessary supplies in the easiest manner, do grant the rates on spirituous liquors, hereafter mentioned, and repeal the present rates.

Lord HERVEY spoke to the effect following:—My lords, notwithstanding the specious arguments which were used to influence the house to permit this bill to escape the censure it deserved, and be admitted to a farther examination in a committee, I am still confident that nothing can justly be offered in its defence; and am not afraid to declare my opinion, that it is not approved even by those who vindicate it; of whom I cannot but believe, from long experience of their judgment and their knowledge, that they consider it only as an easy manner of raising money, as an expedient rather necessary than eligible, and such as only the exigencies of the government could have prevailed upon them to propose; for nothing is more evident, than that it cannot answer the purposes of the former bill.

This, however harsh it may appear, and however inconsistent with that delicacy with which the debates of this august assembly have generally been carried on, must surely be pardoned on this occasion, if for no other reason, at least for this, that it is not easy to forbear it, it is impossible wholly to suppress it in the mind; and to forbear to speak what cannot but be thought, is no part of the duty of a publick counsellor.

The conduct of those whose station subjects them to the resentment of the ministry, or who may be reasonably imagined to expect favours from them, has, throughout all our deliberations on this bill, been such as evidently discovers their only care to be the imposition of a new tax, and the establishment of a new fund. They do not seem to urge seriously any other argument than the necessity of raising money, or to oppose the objections that have been offered, for any other reason, than because they have a tendency to obstruct the supplies.

No other argument can, indeed, be urged in vindication of a bill which every principle of policy or justice must incite us to condemn; a bill by which the sense of morality and religion will be extinguished, and the restraints, of law made ineffectual; by which the labourer and manufacturer will be at once debilitated and corrupted, and by which the roads will be filled with thieves, and the streets with beggars.

It appears, my lords, from the papers on the table, that seven millions of gallons are every year distilled; and experience shows us, that the quality of the liquor is such, that a quarter of a pint is sufficient to intoxicate the brain. Upon this computation, my lords, it is reasonable to believe, that a twentieth part of the labouring hands of this nation are detained from their proper occupations by this kind of drunkenness; and, consequently, that a twentieth part of the trade is every year lost, or, perhaps, a twentieth part of our people every year hurried to the grave, or disabled from contributing to the publick good.

These, my lords, are no doubtful facts, or conjectural calculations, they are confirmed by the most incontestable evidence, and established by all the demonstration of arithmetick; and therefore your lordships are in no danger of errour from either ignorance or uncertainty, but must determine, if you approve this bill, in opposition to all the powers of conviction, and must set aside testimony and reason at the same time.

These facts, my lords, are so plain, that the warmest advocates for the bill have tacitly acknowledged them, by proposing that, if it be found ineffectual, it shall be amended in the next session. What effect this proposal may have upon others, I know not; but for my part, I shall never think it allowable to sport with the prosperity of the publick, or to try experiments by which, if they fail, the lives of thousands must be destroyed.

Such a scheme, my lords, very ill becomes those to whom their ancestors have transmitted the illustrious character of guardians of the people; for surely such cruelty was never practised by the utmost wantonness of tyranny, or the most savage rage of invasion. No man ever before conceived the design of scattering poison for a certain period of time among the people, only to try what havock it would make.

What will be the effects of unrestrained and licensed debauchery may be known, without the guilt of so dreadful an experiment, only by observing the present conduct of the people, even while they are hindered from the full enjoyment of their pleasures, by the terrours of a penal law. Whoever shall be so far touched with the interest of the publick, as to extend his inquiries to the lowest classes of the people, will find some diseased, and others vitiated; he will find some imprisoned by their creditors, and others starving their children; and if he traces all these calamities and crimes to their original cause, will find them all to proceed from the love of distilled liquors.

I know, my lords, that in answer to all these expostulations, and a thousand more, it will be urged by the ministers and their friends, that there is no other method to be found of raising the supplies, and that the demands of the government must be satisfied at whatever rate, and by whatever means.

Though I am very far from approving this assertion, I do not wonder at its prevalence among those who are enriched by every tax, and whose only claim to the preferments which they enjoy arises from their readiness to concur in every scheme for increasing the burdens of the publick; and, therefore, shall never expect their approbation of any proposal, by which a new tax may be retarded. Yet I cannot but declare that, in my opinion, we ought to suspend our proceedings, that the commons may discover what danger their negligence, precipitation, or blind compliance, has brought upon the nation; and that the people may, by so signal a proof of our disapprobation, be alarmed against any attempt of the same kind under any future administration.

This, my lords, will be considered, not only by posterity, but by all the wise and honest men of the present time, as a proof of our regard for virtue, and our attention to the publick welfare. This conduct will be secretly approved, even by those who may think themselves obliged to oppose it in publick; and, as it will be moderate and decent, may probably preserve the nation without irritating the other house.

I therefore move, my lords, that instead of proceeding in the superfluous forms of a committee, we should resume the house, and endeavour to obtain farther information.

After a short silence, lord CHOLMONDELEY spoke to this effect:—My lords, the observations which, though sufficiently explained and enforced in the late debate, the noble lord has been pleased to repeat on this occasion, are in themselves, indeed, sufficiently pertinent, and have been urged by his lordship with uncommon spirit and elegance; but he ought to have reflected, that general declamations are improper in a committee, where the particular clauses of the bill are to be separately considered.

I propose, therefore, that instead of wasting that time, of which the exigencies of the publick now require an uncommon frugality, in useless rhetorick, and untimely vehemence, we should proceed to examine in order the distinct paragraphs of this bill, by which it may more easily appear, whether it ought to be rejected or approved.

It cannot, indeed, be proposed, that any of the clauses shall be amended in this committee; for the claims of the commons, and the obstinacy with which they have always adhered to them, on whatever they are founded, is well known. I am old enough to remember the animosities which have arisen between the two houses, from attempts to adjust this part of their pretensions; animosities which at this time may be not only dangerous to ourselves, but fatal to a great part of mankind, and which it ought, therefore, to be our utmost care not to excite.

Lord AYLESFORD:—My lords, though the consideration of the distinct paragraphs of the bill be, as the noble lord has very justly observed, the proper business of the committee; yet since, as he has likewise observed, the present state of our affairs requires unusual expedition, I think we may very properly spare ourselves the trouble of considering paragraphs which we cannot amend; and which are in themselves so clear and so obvious, that they may be understood in their full extent upon a cursory perusal.

But, my lords, though I think it not proper to follow our usual method of considering the paragraphs distinctly, which can only drive the bill forward towards the third reading, as it has already been forced into the committee; yet I think it not necessary to irritate the other house, alarm our allies, or encourage our enemies, by rejecting that bill by which it is intended that the supplies shall be raised. There is an easy and moderate method, by which the same end may be attained without any disturbance of the publick, any impediment of the schemes of the government, or any just offence to the commons.

Instead of passing or rejecting this bill, of which the first is absolutely criminal, and the second perhaps improper, let us only delay it, by which we shall give the commons time to reflect upon it, to reexamine it, and discover, what they, perhaps, have not hitherto suspected, its destructive tendency. Nor can it be doubted, but the observations which will arise from the necessity of inquiring into the reasons of our conduct, will soon induce them to form another bill, not liable to the same objections; I, therefore, second the noble lord's motion to resume the house.

Lord ISLAY:—My lords, if we consider the pretensions of the commons, and the stubbornness with which they have hitherto adhered to them, we shall easily find the impropriety of the noble lord's motion, and foresee the inefficacy of the methods which he so warmly recommends.

The alarm which he supposes us to give the commons by postponing the bill before us, the observations which they will make upon our conduct, the new informations which they will receive, and the new bill which they will send, are merely imaginary. They will not consider themselves as concerned in the delay or expedition of our procedure, but will suppose us to act upon our own reasons, which it is not necessary for them to examine, and will by no means send another bill for supplies, till they are informed that this is rejected.

Thus, my lords, we shall only retard the supplies, without altering, or being able to alter, the method of raising them; and at last pass that bill, without examination, which we now neglect to examine, lest we should pass it; or, perhaps, irritate the commons by the novelty of our conduct, which, if they should resolve to consider it, they will probably consider only to censure.

Lord AYLESPORD:—My lords, I am no stranger to the claims of the commons to the sole and independent right of forming money bills, nor to the heat with which that claim has been asserted, or the firmness with which it has always been maintained in late senates. Nor am I ignorant, that by contesting this claim, we have sometimes excited disputes, which nothing but a prorogation of the senate could appease.

I know, my lords, and allow, that by acting in any unusual manner with regard to bills of this kind, we may excite the resentment of the commons, and that some interruption of the publick business may, for want of candour and moderation, possibly ensue.

But, my lords, I cannot think the possibility of an ill consequence an argument sufficient to show the unreasonableness of my proposal; for the inconveniencies that may arise from postponing the bill, are only possible, but the calamities that we shall bring upon our country by passing it are certain.

But we are likewise to consider, my lords, that these events, of which it can only be said that they may happen, may also not happen. When I reflect that the house of commons is an assembly of reasonable beings, that it is filled by the representatives of the British people, by men who will share the calamities of the publick, and whose interest it is, equally with ours, to prevent the destruction of our commerce, the decay of our manufactures, the corruption of the present age, and the ruin of posterity, I cannot but hope that they will apply themselves to a candid review of the bill which they have sent, and without heat, jealousy, or disputes, explain it as they may do by another, which will be no deviation from the rules which they have established for themselves, and by which they may secure the happiness of their country without receding from their own pretensions.

The duke of BEDFORD:—My lords, the proposal made by the noble lord appears to me so prudent and equitable, so moderate and so seasonable, and, in my opinion, suggests so easy a method of reconciling the pretensions of the commons with the necessity of amending the bill, that I cannot but think it worthy of the unanimous approbation of your lordships.

I am very far from conceiving the commons to be an assembly of men deaf to reason, or imagining them so void of all regard for the happiness of the publick, as that they will sacrifice it to an obstinate adherence to claims which they cannot but know to be in themselves disputable, and of which they must at least allow that they are only so far just as they contribute to the great end of government, the general good.

But lest they should, by any perverse and unseasonable obstinacy, attend more to the preservation of their own power than to the promotion of the happiness of their constituents, a method is now proposed, by which the errours of this bill may be corrected, without any concession of either house. The commons may easily be informed of the dangers which are justly dreaded from this bill; and may, therefore, prepare another, by which a tax of the same kind may be laid, without a general license of drunkenness; or if a method of laying a duty upon these liquors, which may at once hinder their excessive use, and increase the revenue of the government, cannot be discovered, they may raise the supplies for the year by some other scheme.

Lord CARTERET:—My lords, as the expedient proposed by these noble lords, however it may be recommended, as being at once moderate and efficacious, has, in reality, no other tendency than to procure an absolute rejection of this bill, it is proper to consider the consequences which may be reasonably expected from the measures which they have hitherto proposed.

In order to the effectual restraint of the common people from the use of these pernicious liquors, they assert the necessity of imposing a very large duty to be paid by the distiller, which might, indeed, produce, in some degree, the effect which they expect from it, but would produce it by giving rise to innumerable frauds and inconveniencies.

The immediate consequence of a heavy duty would be the ruin of our distillery, which is now a very extensive and profitable trade, in which great multitudes are employed, who must instantly, upon the cessation of it, sink into poverty. Our stills, my lords, not only supply our natives with liquors, which they used formerly to purchase from foreign countries, and therefore increase, or at least preserve the wealth of our country; but they likewise furnish large quantities for exportation to Guernsey, Jersey, and other places. But no sooner will the duty proposed to be laid upon this liquor take place, than all this trade will be at an end, and those who now follow it will be reduced to support themselves by other employments; and those countries in which our spirits are now drank will be soon supplied from other nations with liquors at once cheaper and more pleasant.

It may be proposed, as an expedient for the preservation of our foreign trade, that the duty shall be repaid upon exportation; but the event of this provision, my lords, will be, that great quantities will be sent to sea for the sake of obtaining a repayment of the duty, which, instead of being sold to foreigners, will be privately landed again upon our own coasts.

Thus, my lords, will the duty be collected, and afterwards repaid; and the government will suffer the odium of imposing a severe tax, and incur the expense of employing a great number of officers, without any advantage to the publick. Spirits will, in many parts of the kingdom, be very little dearer than at present, and drunkenness and debauchery will still prevail.

That these arts, and a thousand others, will be practised by the people to obtain this infatuating liquor, cannot be doubted. It cannot be imagined that they will forbear frauds, who have had recourse to violence, or that those will not endeavour to elude the government, who have already defied it.

Every rigorous law will be either secretly evaded, or openly violated; every severe restraint will be shaken off, either by artifice or vice; nor can this vice, however dangerous or prevalent, be corrected but by slow degrees, by straitening the reins of government imperceptibly, and by superadding a second slight restraint, after the nation has been for some time habituated to the first.

That the government proceeds by these easy and gentle methods of reformation, ought not to be imputed to negligence, but necessity; for so far has the government been from any connivance at this vice, that an armed force was necessary to support the laws which were made to restrain it, and secure the chief persons of the state from the insults of the populace, whom they had only provoked by denying them this pernicious liquor.

Since, therefore, my lords, all opposition to this predominant inclination has appeared without effect, since the government evidently wants power to conquer the united and incessant struggles for the liberty of drunkenness, what remains but that this vice should produce some advantage to the publick, in return for the innumerable evils which arise from it, and that the government should snatch the first opportunity of taxing that vice which cannot be reformed?

This duty arises, indeed, from a concurrence of different causes, of just designs in the government, and of bad inclinations in the people. The tax is just, and well meant; but it can be made sufficient to support the expenses to which it is appropriated, only by the resolution of the populace to continue, in some degree, their usual luxury.

I am far, my lords, from thinking this method of raising money eligible for its own sake, or justifiable by any other plea than that of necessity. If it were possible at once to extinguish the thirst of spirits, no man who had any regard for virtue, or for happiness, would propose to augment the revenue by a tax upon them.

But, my lords, rigour has been already tried, and found to be vain; it has been found equally fruitless to forbid the people to use spirits, as to forbid a man in a dropsy to drink. The force of appetite long indulged, and by indulgence made superiour to the control of reason, is not to be overcome at once; it cannot be subdued by a single effort, but may be weakened; new habits of a more innocent kind may in time be superinduced, and one desire may counterbalance another.

We must endeavour, my lords, by just degrees, to withdraw their affections from this pernicious enjoyment, by making the attainment of it every year somewhat more difficult: but we must not quicken their wishes, and exasperate their resentment, by depriving them at once of their whole felicity. By this method, my lords, I doubt not but we shall obtain what we have hitherto endeavoured with so little success; and I believe that though, in open defiance of a severe law, spirits are now sold in every street of this city, a gentle restraint will, in a short time, divert the minds of the people to other entertainments, and the vice of drinking spirits will be forgotten among us.

Lord HERVEY then rose up again, and spoke to the effect following:—My lords, though I have always considered this bill as at once wicked and absurd, I imagined till now that the projectors of it would have been able to have argued, at least, speciously, though not solidly, in defence of it; nor did I imagine it to have been wholly indefensible, till I discovered how little the extensive knowledge, the long experience, and the penetrating foresight of the noble lord who spoke last, enabled him to produce in vindication of it.

His lordship's argument is reducible to this single assertion, that the drinking distilled liquors cannot be prevented; and from thence he drew this inference, that since it is a point of wisdom to turn misfortunes to advantage, we ought to contrive methods by which the debauchery of the people may enrich the government.

Though we should suppose the assertion true in any sense below that of absolute physical impossibility, the inference is by no means just; since it is the duty of governours to struggle against vice, and promote virtue with incessant assiduity, notwithstanding the difficulties that may for a time hinder the wisest and most rigorous measures from success. That governour who desists from his endeavours of reformation, because they have been once baffled, in reality abandons his station and deserts his charge, nor deserves any other character than that of laziness, negligence, or cowardice.

The preservation of virtue where it subsists, and the recovery of it where it is lost, are the only valuable purposes of government. Laws which do not promote these ends are useless, and those that obviate them are pernicious. The government that takes advantage of wicked inclinations, by accident predominant in the people, and, for any temporary convenience, instead of leading them back to virtue, plunges them deeper into vice, is no longer a sacred institution, because it is no longer a benefit to society. It is from that time a system of wickedness, in which bad ends are promoted by bad means, and one crime operates in subordination to another.

But, my lords, it is not necessary to show the unreasonableness of the inference, because the assertion from which it is deduced cannot be proved. That the excessive use of distilled liquors cannot be prevented, is a very daring paradox, not only contrary to the experience of all past times, but of the present; for the law which is now to be repealed, did in a great degree produce the effects desired from it, till the execution of it was suspended, not by the inability of the magistrates, or obstinacy of the people, but by the artifice of ministers, who promoted the sale of spirits secretly, for the same reason which incites our present more daring politicians to establish the use of them by a law.

The defects of this law, for that it was defective cannot be denied, were in the manner of levying the duty; for had half the duty that was demanded from the unlicensed retailers, been required from the distiller, there had been no need of informations; nor had we been stunned with the dismal accounts of the rage and cruelty of the people, or the violent deaths of those who endeavoured to grow rich by commencing prosecutions. The duty had been regularly paid, the liquors had been made too dear for common use, and the name of spirits had been in a short time forgotten amongst us.

From this defect, my lords, arose all the difficulties and inconveniencies that have impeded the execution of the law, and prevented the effects that were expected from it, and by one amendment they might be all removed.

But instead of endeavouring to improve the efficacy of the remedy which was before proposed for this universal malady, we are now told, that it was too forcible to take effect, and that it only failed by the vigour of its operation. We are informed, that the work of reformation ought not to be despatched with too much expedition, that mankind cannot possibly be made virtuous at once, and that they must be drawn off from their habits by just degrees, without the violence of a sudden change.

What degrees the noble lord proposes to recommend, or what advantage he expects from allowing the people a longer time to confirm their habits, I am not able to discover. He appears to me rather to propose an experiment than a law, and rather to intend the improvement of policy, than the safety of the people.

This experiment is, indeed, of a very daring kind, in which not only the money but the lives of the people are hazarded: their money has, indeed, in all ages been subject to the caprices of statesmen, but their lives ought to be exempt from such dangerous practices, because, when once lost, they can never be recovered. By this bill, however, it is contrived to lay poison in the way of the people, poison which we know will be eagerly devoured by a fourth part of the nation, and will prove fatal to a great number of those that taste it; nor of this project is any defence made, but, that since the people love to swallow poison, it may be of advantage to the government to sell it.

It might not be improper, my lords, to publish to the people, by a formal proclamation, the benevolent intentions of their governours; and inform them, that licensed murderers are to be appointed, at whose shops they may infallibly be destroyed, without any danger of legal censures, provided they take care to use the poison prescribed by the government, and increase, by their death, the publick revenue.

That money only is desired from this bill, is not only obvious from the first perusal of it, but confessed even by those who defend it; but not one has continued to assert, that it will produce a reformation of manners, or recommended it otherwise than as an experiment.

For this reason, my lords, I still think my motion for postponing the bill very reasonable, nor do I make any scruple to confess that I propose, by postponing, only a more gentle and inoffensive method of dropping it, that some other way of raising the supplies may be attempted, or that the duty may be raised to three shillings a gallon; the lowest tax that can be laid with a design of reformation.

This method, my lords, or any other by which another bill may be procured, should be pursued; for whatever schemes the commons may substitute, the nation can suffer nothing by the change, they cannot raise money in any other manner, but with less injury to the publick; since the greatest calamity which wrong measures can possibly produce, is the propagation of wickedness, and the establishment of debauchery.

Lord BATH then spoke, in substance as follows:—My lords, that this bill is, with great propriety, called an experiment, I am ready to allow, but do not think the justness of that expression any forcible argument against it; because I know not any law that can be proposed for the same end, without equally deserving the same appellation.

All the schemes of government, my lords, have been perfected by slow degrees, and the defects of every regulation supplied by the wisdom of successive generations. No man has yet been found, whose discernment, however penetrating, has enabled him to discover all the consequences of a new law, nor to perceive all the fallacies that it includes, or all the inconveniencies that it may produce; the first essay of a new regulation is, therefore, only an experiment made, in some degree, at random, and to be rectified by subsequent observations; in making which, the most prudent conduct is only to take care that it may produce no ill consequences of great importance, before there may be an opportunity of reviewing it.

This maxim, my lords, is, in my opinion, strictly regarded in the present attempt, which in itself is an affair of very great perplexity. The health and virtue of the people are to be regarded on one part, and the continuance of a very gainful and extensive manufacture on the other; a manufacture by which only, or chiefly, the produce of our own nation is employed; and on which, therefore, the value of lands must very much depend.

Manufactures of this kind, my lords, ought never to be violently or suddenly suppressed. If they are pernicious to the nation in general, they are, at least, useful to a very great part, and to some, who have no other employment, necessary; and in the design of putting a stop to any detrimental trade, care is always to be taken that the inconvenience exceed not the benefit, and time be allowed for those that are engaged in it to withdraw to some other business, and for the commodities that are consumed by it, to be introduced at some other market, or directed to some other use.

These cautions are in this bill very judiciously observed. The trade, which all allow to administer supplies to debauchery, and fuel to diseases, will, by the provisions in this bill, sink away by degrees, and the health and virtue of the people will be preserved or restored without murmurs or commotions.

We must consider, likewise, my lords, the necessity of raising supplies, and the success with which they have hitherto been raised upon the scheme which is now under your consideration.

In examining the necessity of procuring supplies, I shall not expatiate upon the present danger of the liberties of all this part of the world; upon the distress of the house of Austria, the necessity of preserving the balance of power, or the apparent designs of the ancient and incessant disturbers of mankind, topicks which have been on former occasions sufficiently explained.

It is now only necessary to observe, that the state of our affairs requires expedition, and that a happy peace can only be expected from a successful war, and that war can only be made successful by vigour and despatch.

If by liberal grants of money, and ready concurrence in all necessary measures, we enable his majesty to raise a powerful army, there is no reason to doubt that a single campaign may procure peace, that it may establish the liberties of Europe, and raise our allies, who were so lately distressed, to their former greatness.

These supplies, my lords, which are so evidently necessary, may, by the method now proposed, be easily, speedily, and cheaply raised. Upon the security which this act will afford, large sums are already offered to the government at the low interest of three for a hundred, by those who, if the conditions of the loan are changed, will, perhaps, demand four in a few days, or raise money by a combination to the rate of five or six for a hundred; of which I would not remark how much it will embarrass the publick measures, or how much it will encourage our enemies to an obstinate resistance.

Such, my lords, are the inconveniencies to be feared from rejecting this bill, or from postponing it; by which is plainly intended only a more gentle and tender manner of rejecting it, by hinting to the commons your disapprobation of it, and the necessity of sending up another, which you cannot do without hazarding the peace of the nation and the fate of the war.

The commons, who are not obliged to inquire what reception their bills find here, may perhaps not immediately prepare another, but suffer time to elapse, till necessity shall oblige us to comply with those measures which we cannot approve.

They may, likewise, by a kind of senatorial craft, elude all our precautions, and make the rejection of the bill ineffectual, as was once done, when a bill for a tax upon leather was rejected: the commons, determining not to be directed in the methods of raising money, sent up the same bill with only a small alteration of the title, to lay a duty upon tanned hides, which the lords were, for want of time, obliged to pass.

But, my lords, should the other house discover in this single instance, any uncommon degree of flexibility and complaisance, should they patiently endure the rejection of the bill, admit the validity of the reasons upon which your lordships have proceeded, and willingly engage in drawing up a new scheme for raising supplies; even upon this supposition, which is more favourable than can reasonably be formed, the business of the year will be very much perplexed, and the new bill hurried into a law without sufficient caution or deliberation.

The session is now, my lords, so far advanced, that many of the commons have retired into the country, whose advice and assistance may be necessary in the projection of a new money bill, so that the new bill must be formed in a short time, and by a thin house; and, indeed, the multiplicity of considerations necessary to another bill of this kind, is such, that I cannot think it prudent to advise or undertake it.

The committee on ways and means must strike out another scheme for a considerable impost, which, in the present state of the nation, is in itself no easy task. This scheme must be so adjusted as to be consistent with all the other taxes, which will require long consultations and accurate inquiries. It must then struggle, perhaps, through an obstinate and artful opposition, before it can pass through the forms of the other house; and, when it comes before your lordships, may be again opposed with no less zeal than the bill before us, and perhaps, likewise, with equal reason.

All these dangers and difficulties will be avoided by trying, for a single year, the experiment which is now proposed; and which, if that should fail, may be better adjusted in the time of leisure, which the beginning of the next session will undoubtedly afford; before which time I am afraid no amendment can possibly be made.

It has been proposed, indeed, by the noble lord, that three shillings should be laid upon every gallon of distilled liquors, which would undoubtedly lessen the consumption, but would at the same time destroy the trade; a trade from which large profits may be in time gained; since our distillers have now acquired such skill, that the most delicate palate cannot distinguish their liquors from those which foreigners import.

If the duty be raised to the height proposed, it must be allowed to be repaid for all that shall be exported; otherwise foreign nations will deprive us of this part of our trade; and it has been already shown, that by mock exportations the duty may be frequently evaded.

Thus, my lords, there will be difficulties on either hand; if a duty so high be paid, the manufacturer will be ruined; if it be evaded, the consumption will be lessened.

One inconvenience will easily be discovered to be the necessary consequence of any considerable advance of the price. We may be certain that an act of the senate will not moderate the passions, or alter the appetites of the people; and that they will not be less desirous of their usual gratifications, because they are denied them. The poor may, indeed, yield to necessity, unless they find themselves able to resist the law, or to evade it; but those who can afford to please their taste, or exalt their spirits at a greater expense, will still riot as before, but with this difference, that their excesses will produce no advantage to the publick.

If an additional duty of three shillings be laid upon every gallon of distilled liquors, the product of our own distillery will be dearer than those liquors which are imported from foreign parts; and, therefore, it cannot but be expected that the money which now circulates amongst us, will in a short time be clandestinely carried into other countries.

Such, my lords, will be the effect of those taxes which are so strongly recommended; and, therefore, they ought not to be imposed till all other methods of proceeding have been found ineffectual.

It is possible, indeed, that the regulation specified in this bill may not produce any beneficial effect, and that the present practice of debauchery may still continue among the people; but it is likewise possible that this tax may, by increasing the price, augment the revenue at the same time that it lessens the consumption.

This proposal has, by some lords, been treated as a paradox; but they certainly suspected it of falsehood, only for want of patience to form the calculations necessary in such disquisitions. The tax of the last year amounted to one hundred and seventy thousand pounds; this tax is now doubled, so that the same quantity will produce three hundred and forty thousand; but if one third less should be consumed, the present tax will amount to no more than two hundred and twenty thousand pounds; and when fifty thousand licenses are added, the revenue will gain an hundred thousand pounds, though one third part of the consumption should be hindered.

But, my lords, supposing no part of the consumption hindered, I cannot think that bill should be rejected, which, in a time of danger like the present, shall add to the publick revenue an annual income of more than two hundred thousand pounds, without lessening any manufacture, without burdening any useful or virtuous part of the nation, and without giving the least occasion to any murmurs among the people.

It is to be remembered, my lords, that whatever corruption shall prevail amongst us, it cannot be imputed to this bill, which did not make, but find the nation vitiated, and only turned their vices to publick advantage; so that if it produces any diminution of the sale of spirits, it is indisputably to be applauded as promoting virtue. If the sale of spirits still continues the same, it will deserve some degree of commendation, as it will, at least, not contribute to the increase of vice, and as it will augment the revenue without injuring the people; for how, my lords, can we be censured for only suffering the nation to continue in its former state?

Lord TALBOT then spoke in substance as follows:—My lords, if we consider the tendency of the argument used by the noble lord, the only argument on which he appears to lay any stress, it will prove, if it proves any thing, what cannot be admitted by your lordships, without bidding farewell to independency, and acknowledging that you are only the substitutes of a higher power.

It appears by the tenor of his reasoning, that he considers this house as only obliged, in questions relating to supplies, to ratify the determinations of the other; to submit implicitly to their dictates, and receive their sovereign commands, without daring either to refuse compliance, or delay it.

If we conjoin the reasoning of the noble lord who spoke last, with that of one who spoke before in favour of the bill, we shall be able to discover the full extent of our power on these occasions; the first was pleased to inform us, that though we were at liberty to examine the paragraphs of this bill, we had no right, at least no power to amend them; because in money bills, the commons left us no other choice than that of passing or rejecting them.

This, my lords, might have been thought a sufficient contraction of those privileges which your ancestors transmitted to you, and the commons needed to have desired no farther concessions from this assembly, since this was a publick confession of a subordinate state, and admitted either that part of our ancient rights had been given up, or that we were at present too much depressed to dare to assert them.

We might, however, still comfort ourselves with the peaceful and uncontested possession of the alternative; we might still believe that what we could not approve we might reject, without irritating the formidable commons. But now, my lords, a new doctrine has been vented among us; we are told not only that we must not amend a money bill, but that it will be to no purpose to reject it; for that the other house will send it again without altering any thing but the title, and force it upon us, when there is no time for any other expedient.

If this, my lords, should be done, I know not how the bill might, at its second appearance, be received by other lords; for my part, I should vote immediately for rejecting it, without any alleviating or mollifying expedients. I should reject it, my lords, even on the last day of the session, without any regard to the pretended necessity of raising supplies, and without suffering myself to be terrified into compliance by the danger of the house of Austria; for though I think the balance of power on the continent necessary to be preserved at the hazard of a fleet or an army, I cannot think it of equal importance to us with the equipoise of our own government; nor can I conceive it my duty to enslave myself to secure the freedom of another.

The danger, therefore, of disgusting the commons, at this or any other juncture, shall never influence me to a tame resignation of the privileges of our own house; nor shall I willingly allow any force to arguments which are intended only to operate upon our fear; and, therefore, unless there shall appear some better plea in favour of this bill, I shall think it my duty to oppose it.

The other plea is the difficulty, or, in the style of the noble lord who spoke last, the impossibility of raising supplies by any other method. That it is not easy to raise supplies by any new tax, in a nation where almost all the necessaries of life are loaded with imposts, must be readily allowed; but that it is impossible, the folly of the people, which is at least equal to their poverty, will not suffer me to grant.

One other expedient, at least, has been already discovered by the wonderful sagacity of our new ministers; an expedient which they cannot, indeed, claim the honour of inventing, but which appears so conformable to the rest of their conduct, and so agreeable to their principles, that I doubt not but they will very often practise it, if the continuance of their power be long enough to admit of a full display of their abilities.

Amidst their tenderness for our manufactures, and their regard for commerce, they have established a lottery for eight hundred thousand pounds, by which they not only take advantage of an inclination too predominant, an inclination to grow rich rather by a lucky hazard, than successful industry; but give up the people a prey to stockjobbers, usurers, and brokers of tickets, who will plunder them without mercy, by the encouragement of those by whom it might be hoped that they would be protected from plunderers.

All lotteries, my lords, are games, which are not more honest or more useful for being legal; and the objection which has been made to all other games, and which has never yet been answered, will be found equally valid when applied to them. They engross that attention which might be employed in improving or extending our manufactures; they swallow that money which might circulate in useful trade; they give the idle and the diligent an equal prospect of riches; and by conferring unexpected wealth upon those who never deserved it, and know not how to use it, they promote extravagance and luxury, insolence and dissoluteness.

But these consequences, my lords, and a thousand others equally important, equally formidable, may be objected without effect, against any scheme by which money will be raised; money! the only end at which our ministers have aimed for almost half a century; money! by which only they have preserved the favour of the court, and the obedience of the senate; money! which has supplied the place of wisdom at one time, and of courage at another.

To gain money, my lords, they have injured trade by establishing a lottery; and they are now about to sacrifice the health and virtue of the people, to the preservation of a trade by which money may be furnished to the government. This, my lords, is their only design, however they may act, or whatever they may profess; if they endeavour to protect either the trade or lives of people, it is only because they expect a continuance of taxes from them; and when more desperate measures are necessary for the same purposes, they ruin their trade by one project, and destroy their lives by another.

Lord LONSDALE next spoke, to this effect:—My lords, it is not without the utmost grief and indignation, that I find this house considered by some who have spoken in vindication of this bill, as obliged to comply with any proposals sent up by the commons for raising money, however destructive to the publick, or however contrary to the dictates of our conscience, or convictions of our reason.

What is this, my lords, but once more to vote ourselves useless? What but to be the first that shall destroy the constitution of the government, and give up that liberty which our ancestors established?

That this is really the design of any of the noble lords, who have spoken in vindication of the bill, and have asserted the necessity of passing it, without any attempts to amend it, I am very far from affirming; but certainly, my lords, this, and this only, is the consequence of their positions, with whatever intention they may have advanced them; for how, my lords, can we call ourselves independent, if we are to receive the commands of the other house? or with what propriety can we assume the title of legislators, if we are to pass a bill like this without examination?

The bill now before us, my lords, is of the utmost importance to the happiness of that nation whose welfare we have hitherto been imagined to superintend. In this bill are involved not only the trade and riches, but the lives and morals of the British people; nor can we suffer it to pass unexamined, without betraying the nation to wickedness and destruction.

Should we, on this occasion, suffer ourselves to be degraded from legislators to messengers from the commons to the throne; should we be content only to transmit the laws which we ought to amend, and resign ourselves up implicitly to the wisdom of those whom we have formerly considered as our inferiours, I know not for what purpose we sit here. It would be my counsel that we should no longer attempt to preserve the appearance of power, when we have lost the substance, or submit to share the drudgery of government, without partaking of the authority.

The time of such desperation is, indeed, not yet arrived; but every act of servile compliance will bring it nearer; and, therefore, my lords, for the sake of ourselves, as well as of the people, I join the noble lord's motion for resuming the house, that farther information may be obtained both by ourselves, by the commons, and by the nation.

The duke of NEWCASTLE then rose, and spoke to the effect following:—My lords, I believe no lord in this assembly is more zealous for the advantage of the publick than myself, or more desirous to preserve the lives, or amend the morals of the people; but I cannot think that this character can justly imply any dislike of the bill now before us.

If I should admit what the noble lord has asserted, that the lives and morals of the people are affected by this bill, I cannot yet see that his inference is just, or that our compliance with the motion is, therefore, necessary.

That under the present regulation, the miseries of the nation are every day increased; that corruption spreads every day wider, and debauchery makes greater havock, is confessed on all sides; and, therefore, I can discover no reason for continuing the laws in their present state, nor can think that we ought to decline any experiment by which that disorder, which cannot be increased, may possibly be lessened.

It is confessed by the noble lords, who declare their approbation of the motion for postponing the consideration of this bill, that they intend nothing less than a gentle and tacit manner of dropping it, by showing the commons that though to avoid offence they do not absolutely reject it, yet they cannot approve it, and will not pass it; and that, therefore, the necessity of raising supplies, requires that another bill should be formed, not liable to the same objections.

The consequence of this procedure, my lords, can only be, that either the commons will form another bill for raising money, or that they will send up this again with a new title, and such slight alterations as not the happiness of the nation, but the forms of the senate demand.

If, in return for our endeavours to reform a bill, of which they think themselves the only constitutional judges, they should send it again with only another title; what, my lords, shall we procure by the delay, but a new occasion of murmurs and discontent, a new confirmation of the power of the commons, and an establishment of senatorial chicanery, at once pernicious to the publick, and ignominious to ourselves.

That the commons, in sending back a bill that has been rejected in this house, with only a change in the title, act contrary to the end of senatorial consultations, though consistently with their external forms, cannot be denied: but as each house is without any dependence on the other, such deviations from the principles of our constitution, however injurious to our authority, or however detrimental to the nation, cannot be punished, nor otherwise prevented, than by caution and prudence.

If, therefore, the commons, as they have formerly done, should return the bill without alteration, we shall only have impaired our own authority, and shaken the foundations of our government by a fruitless opposition. Nor shall we gain any advantage, though they should comply with our expectations, and employ the little time that remains in contriving a new tax; for corruption must then proceed without opposition, the people must grow every day more vitious, and debauchery will, in a short time, grow too general to be suppressed.

With regard to the bill before us, the only question that is necessary or proper, is, whether it will promote or hinder the consumption of distilled liquors? for as to the effects of those liquors, those that vindicate, and that oppose this bill, are of the same opinion; and all will readily allow, that if the law now proposed shall be found to increase the consumption which it was intended to diminish, it ought immediately to be repealed, as destructive to the people, and contrary to the end for which it was designed; but if the additional duties shall produce any degree of restraint, if they shall hinder the consumption even of a very small part, I think it must be allowed that the provisions are just and useful; since it has already appeared, that this vice is too deeply rooted to be torn up at once; and that, therefore, it is to be pruned away by imperceptible diminution.