But it is not requisite to multiply arguments in a question which may not only be decided without long examination, but in which we may determine our conclusions by the experience of our ancestors. Scarcely any right or wrong measures are without a precedent, and, amongst others, this expedient has been tried by the wisdom of former times; a law was once made for limiting the wages of tailors, and that it is totally ineffectual we are all convinced. Experience is a very safe guide in political inquiries, and often discovers what the most enlightened reason failed to foresee.

Let us, therefore, improve the errours of our ancestors to our own advantage, and whilst we neglect to imitate their virtues, let us, at least, forbear to repeat their follies.

Mr. PERRY spoke to this purpose:—Sir, there is one objection more which my acquaintance with foreign trade impresses too strongly upon my mind to suffer me to conceal it.

It is well known that the condition of a seaman subjects him to the necessity of spending a great part of his life at a distance from his native country, in places where he can neither hear of our designs, nor be instructed in our laws, and, therefore, it is evident that no law ought to affect him before a certain period of time, in which he may reasonably be supposed to have been informed of it. For every man ought to have it in his power to avoid punishment, and to suffer only for negligence or obstinacy.

It is quite unnecessary, sir, to observe to this assembly, that there are now, as at all times, great numbers of sailors in every part of the world, and that they, at least, equally deserve our regard with those who are under the more immediate influence of the government.

These seamen have already contracted for the price of their labour, and the recompense of their hazards, nor can we, in my opinion, without manifest injustice, dissolve a contract founded upon equity, and confirmed by law.

It is, sir, an undisputed principle of government, that no person should be punished without a crime; but is it no punishment to deprive a man of what is due to him by a legal stipulation, the condition of which is, on his part, honestly fulfilled?

Nothing, sir, can be imagined more calamitous than the disappointment to which this law subjects the unhappy men who are now promoting the interest of their country in distant places, amidst dangers and hardships, in unhealthy climates, and barbarous nations, where they comfort themselves, under the fatigues of labour and the miseries of sickness, with the prospect of the sum which they shall gain for the relief of their families, and the respite which their wages will enable them to enjoy; but, upon their return, they find their hopes blasted, and their contracts dissolved by a law made in their absence.

No human being, I think, can coolly and deliberately inflict a hardship like this, and, therefore, I doubt not but those who have, by inadvertency, given room for this objection, will either remove it by an amendment, or what is, in my opinion, more eligible, reject the clause as inexpedient, useless, and unjust.

Sir William YONGE spoke next to this effect:—Sir, this debate has been protracted, not by any difficulties arising from the nature of the questions which have been the subject of it, but by a neglect with which almost all the opponents of the bill may be justly charged, the neglect of distinguishing between measures eligible in themselves, and measures preferable to consequences which are apprehended from particular conjunctures; between laws made only to advance the publick happiness, and expedients of which the benefit is merely occasional, and of which the sole intention is to avert some national calamity, and which are to cease with the necessity that produced them.

Such are the measures, sir, which are now intended; measures, which, in days of ease, security, and prosperity, it would be the highest degree of weakness to propose, but of which I cannot see the absurdity in times of danger and distress. Such laws are the medicines of a state, useless and nauseous in health, but preferable to a lingering disease, or to a miserable death.

Even those measures, sir, which have been mentioned as most grossly absurd, and represented as parallel to the provision made in this clause only to expose it to contempt and ridicule, may, in particular circumstances, be rational and just. To settle the price of corn in the time of a famine, may become the wisest state, and multitudes might, in time of publick misery, by the benefit of temporary laws, be preserved from destruction. Even those masts, to which, with a prosperous gale, the ship owes its usefulness and its speed, are often cut down by the sailors in the fury of a storm.

With regard to the ships which are now in distant places, whither no knowledge of this law can possibly be conveyed, it cannot be denied that their crews ought to be secured from injury by some particular exception; for though it is evident in competitions between publick and private interest, which ought to be preferred, yet we ought to remember that no unnecessary injury is to be done to individuals, even while we are providing for the safety of the nation.

Mr. FAZAKERLY spoke to this effect:—Sir, though I cannot be supposed to have much acquaintance with naval affairs, and, therefore, may not, perhaps, discover the full force of the arguments that have been urged in favour of the clause now under consideration, yet I cannot but think myself under an indispensable obligation to examine it as far as I am able, and to make use of the knowledge which I have acquired, however inferiour to that of others.

The argument, sir, the only real argument, which has been produced in favour of the restraint of wages now proposed, appears to me by no means conclusive; nor can I believe that the meanest and most ignorant seaman would, if it were proposed to him, hesitate a moment for an answer to it. Let me suppose, sir, a merchant urging it as a charge against a seaman, that he raises his demand of wages in time of war, would not the sailor readily reply, that harder labour required larger pay? Would he not ask, why the general practice of mankind is charged as a crime upon him only? Inquire, says he, of the workmen in the docks, have they not double wages for double labour? and is not their lot safe and easy in comparison with mine, who at once encounter danger and support fatigue, carry on war and commerce at the same time, conduct the ship and oppose the enemy, and am equally exposed to captivity and shipwreck?

That this is, in reality, the state of a sailor in time of war, I think, sir, too evident to require proof; nor do I see what reply can be made to the sailor's artless expostulation.

I know not why the sailors alone should serve their country to their disadvantage, and be expected to encounter danger without the incitement of a reward.

Nor will any part of the hardships of this clause be alleviated by the expedient suggested by an honourable member, who spoke, some time ago, of granting, or allowing, to a sailor, whose contract shall be void, what our courts of law should adjudge him to deserve, a quantum meruit: for, according to the general interpretation of our statutes, it will be determined that he has forfeited his whole claim by illegal contract. To instance, sir, the statute of usury. He that stipulates for higher interest than is allowed, is not able to recover his legal demand, but irrecoverably forfeits the whole.

Thus, sir, an unhappy sailor who shall innocently transgress this law, must lose all the profit of his voyage, and have nothing to relieve him after his fatigues; but when he has by his courage repelled the enemy, and, by his skill, escaped storms and rocks, must suffer yet severer hardships, in being subject to a forfeiture where he expected applause, comfort, and recompense.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL spoke next, to this purport:—Sir, the clause before us cannot, in my opinion, produce any such dreadful consequences as the learned gentleman appears to imagine: however, to remove all difficulties, I have drawn up an amendment, which I shall beg leave to propose, that the contracts which may be affected as the clause now stands, shall be void only as to so much of the wages as shall exceed the sum to which the house shall agree to reduce the seamen's pay; and, as to the forfeitures, they are not to be levied upon the sailors, but upon the merchants, or trading companies, who employ them, and who are able to pay greater sums without being involved in poverty and distress.

With regard, sir, to the reasons for introducing this clause, they are, in my judgment, valid and equitable. We have found it necessary to fix the rate of money at interest, and the rate of labour in several cases, and if we do not in this case, what will be the consequence?—a second embargo on commerce, and, perhaps, a total stop to all military preparations. Is it reasonable that any man should rate his labour according to the immediate necessities of those that employ him? or that he should raise his own fortune by the publick calamities? If this has hitherto been a practice, it is a practice contrary to the general happiness of society, and ought to prevail no longer.

If the sailor, sir, is exposed to greater dangers in time of war, is not the merchant's trade carried on, likewise, at greater hazard? Is not the freight, equally with the sailors, threatened at once by the ocean and the enemy? And is not the owner's fortune equally impaired, whether the ship is dashed upon a rock, or seized by a privateer?

The merchant, therefore, has as much reason for paying less wages in time of war, as the sailor for demanding more, and nothing remains but that the legislative power determine a medium between their different interests, with justice, if possible, at least with impartiality.

Mr. Horace WALPOLE, who had stood up several times, but was prevented by other members, spoke next, to this purport:—Sir, I was unwilling to interrupt the course of this debate while it was carried on with calmness and decency, by men, who do not suffer the ardour of opposition to cloud their reason, or transport them to such expressions as the dignity of this assembly does not admit. I have hitherto deferred to answer the gentleman who declaimed against the bill with such fluency of rhetorick, and such vehemence of gesture; who charged the advocates for the expedients now proposed, with having no regard to any interest but their own, and with making laws only to consume paper, and threatened them with the defection of their adherence, and the loss of their influence, upon this new discovery of their folly and their ignorance.

Nor, sir, do I now answer him for any other purpose than to remind him how little the clamours of rage and petulancy of invectives contribute to the purposes for which this assembly is called together; how little the discovery of truth is promoted, and the security of the nation established by pompous diction and theatrical emotions.

Formidable sounds, and furious declamations, confident assertions, and lofty periods, may affect the young and unexperienced; and, perhaps, the gentleman may have contracted his habits of oratory by conversing more with those of his own age, than with such as have had more opportunities of acquiring knowledge, and more successful methods of communicating their sentiments.

If the heat of his temper, sir, would suffer him to attend to those whose age and long acquaintance with business give them an indisputable right to deference and superiority, he would learn, in time, to reason rather than declaim, and to prefer justness of argument, and an accurate knowledge of facts, to sounding epithets and splendid superlatives, which may disturb the imagination for a moment, but leave no lasting impression on the mind.

He will learn, sir, that to accuse and prove are very different, and that reproaches, unsupported by evidence, affect only the character of him that utters them. Excursions of fancy, and flights of oratory, are, indeed, pardonable in young men, but in no other; and it would surely contribute more, even to the purpose for which some gentlemen appear to speak, that of depreciating the conduct of the administration, to prove the inconveniencies and injustice of this bill, than barely to assert them, with whatever magnificence of language, or appearance of zeal, honesty, or compassion.

Mr. PITT replied:—Sir, the atrocious crime of being a young man, which the honourable gentleman has with such spirit and decency charged upon me, I shall neither attempt to palliate nor deny, but content myself with wishing that I may be one of those whose follies may cease with their youth, and not of that number, who are ignorant in spite of experience.

Whether youth can be imputed to any man as a reproach, I will not, sir, assume the province of determining; but surely age may become justly contemptible, if the opportunities which it brings have passed away without improvement, and vice appears to prevail when the passions have subsided. The wretch that, after having seen the consequences of a thousand errours, continues still to blunder, and whose age has only added obstinacy to stupidity, is surely the object of either abhorrence or contempt, and deserves not that his grey head should secure him from insults.

Much more, sir, is he to be abhorred, who, as he has advanced in age, has receded from virtue, and becomes more wicked with less temptation; who prostitutes himself for money which he cannot enjoy, and spends the remains of his life in the ruin of his country.

But youth, sir, is not my only crime; I have been accused of acting a theatrical part—a theatrical part may either imply some peculiarities of gesture, or a dissimulation of my real sentiments, and an adoption of the opinions and language of another man.

In the first sense, sir, the charge is too trifling to be confuted, and deserves only to be mentioned, that it may be despised. I am at liberty, like every other man, to use my own language; and though I may, perhaps, have some ambition to please this gentleman, I shall not lay myself under any restraint, nor very solicitously copy his diction, or his mien, however matured by age, or modelled by experience.

If any man shall, by charging me with theatrical behaviour, imply that I utter any sentiments but my own, I shall treat him as a calumniator and a villain; nor shall any protection shelter him from the treatment which he deserves. I shall, on such an occasion, without scruple, trample upon all those forms, with which wealth and dignity intrench themselves, nor shall any thing but age restrain my resentment: age, which always brings one privilege, that of being insolent and supercilious without punishment.

But, with regard, sir, to those whom I have offended, I am of opinion, that if I had acted a borrowed part, I should have avoided their censure; the heat that offended them is the ardour of conviction, and that zeal for the service of my country, which neither hope nor fear shall influence me to suppress. I will not sit unconcerned while my liberty is invaded, nor look in silence upon publick robbery. I will exert my endeavours, at whatever hazard, to repel the aggressor, and drag the thief to justice, whoever may protect them in their villany, and whoever may partake of their plunder. And if the honourable gentleman—

Here Mr. WINNINGTON called to order, and Mr. PITT sitting down, he spoke thus:—It is necessary, sir, that the order of this assembly be observed, and the debate resumed without personal altercations. Such expressions as have been vented on this occasion, become not an assembly intrusted with the liberty and welfare of their country. To interrupt the debate on a subject so important as that before us, is, in some measure, to obstruct the publick happiness, and violate our trust: but much more heinous is the crime of exposing our determinations to contempt, and inciting the people to suspicion or mutiny, by indecent reflections, or unjust insinuations.

I do not, sir, undertake to decide the controversy between the two gentlemen, but must be allowed to observe, that no diversity of opinion can justify the violation of decency, and the use of rude and virulent expressions; expressions dictated only by resentment, and uttered without regard to—

Mr. PITT called to order, and said:—Sir, if this be to preserve order, there is no danger of indecency from the most licentious tongue: for what calumny can be more atrocious, or what reproach more severe, than that of speaking with regard to any thing but truth. Order may sometimes be broken by passion, or inadvertency, but will hardly be reestablished by monitors like this, who cannot govern his own passion, whilst he is restraining the impetuosity of others.

Happy, sir, would it be for mankind, if every one knew his own province; we should not then see the same man at once a criminal and a judge. Nor would this gentleman assume the right of dictating to others what he has not learned himself.

That I may return, in some degree, the favour which he intends me, I will advise him never hereafter to exert himself on the subject of order; but, whenever he finds himself inclined to speak on such occasions, to remember how he has now succeeded, and condemn, in silence, what his censures will never reform.

Mr. WINNINGTON replied:—Sir, as I was hindered by the gentleman's ardour and impetuosity from concluding my sentence, none but myself can know the equity or partiality of my intentions, and, therefore, as I cannot justly be condemned, I ought to be supposed innocent; nor ought he to censure a fault of which he cannot be certain that it would ever have been committed.

He has, indeed, exalted himself to a degree of authority never yet assumed by any member of this house, that of condemning others to silence. I am henceforward, by his inviolable decree, to sit and hear his harangues without daring to oppose him. How wide he may extend his authority, or whom he will proceed to include in the same sentence, I shall not determine; having not yet arrived at the same degree of sagacity with himself, nor being able to foreknow what another is going to pronounce.

If I had given offence by any improper sallies of passion, I ought to have been censured by the concurrent voice of the assembly, or have received a reprimand, sir, from you, to which I should have submitted without opposition; but I will not be doomed to silence by one who has no pretensions to authority, and whose arbitrary decisions can only tend to introduce uproar, discord, and confusion.

Mr. Henry PELHAM next rose up, and spoke to this effect:—Sir, when, in the ardour of controversy upon interesting questions, the zeal of the disputants hinders them from a nice observation of decency and regularity, there is some indulgence due to the common weakness of our nature; nor ought any gentleman to affix to a negligent expression a more offensive sense than is necessarily implied by it.

To search deep, sir, for calumnies and reproaches is no laudable nor beneficial curiosity; it must always be troublesome to ourselves by alarming us with imaginary injuries, and may often be unjust to others by charging them with invectives which they never intended. General candour and mutual tenderness will best preserve our own quiet, and support that dignity which has always been accounted essential to national debates, and seldom infringed without dangerous consequences.

Mr. LYTTLETON spoke as follows:—Sir, no man can be more zealous for decency than myself, or more convinced of the necessity of a methodical prosecution of the question before us. I am well convinced how near indecency and faction are to one another, and how inevitably confusion produces obscurity; but I hope it will always be remembered, that he who first infringes decency, or deviates from method, is to answer for all the consequences that may arise from the neglect of senatorial customs: for it is not to be expected that any man will bear reproaches without reply, or that he who wanders from the question will not be followed in his digressions, and hunted through his labyrinths.

It cannot, sir, be denied, that some insinuations were uttered injurious to those whose zeal may sometimes happen to prompt them to warm declarations, or incite them to passionate emotions. Whether I am of importance enough to be included in the censure, I despise it too much to inquire or consider, but cannot forbear to observe, that zeal for the right can never become reproachful, and that no man can fall into contempt but those who deserve it.

[The clause was amended, and agreed to.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 13, 1740-1.

The seventieth day of the session being appointed for the report from the committee on the bill for the increase and encouragement of sailors, sir John BARNARD presented a petition from the merchants of London, and spoke as follows:—

Sir, this petition I am directed to lay before this house by many of the principal merchants of that great city which I have the honour to represent; men too wise to be terrified with imaginary dangers, and too honest to endeavour the obstruction of any measures that may probably advance the publick good, merely because they do not concur with their private interest; men, whose knowledge and capacity enable them to judge rightly, and whose acknowledged integrity and spirit set them above the suspicion of concealing their sentiments.

I therefore present this petition in the name of the merchants of London, in full confidence that it will be found to deserve the regard of this assembly, though I am, equally with the other members, a stranger to what it contains; for it is my opinion that a representative is to lay before the house the sentiments of his constituents, whether they agree with his own or not, and that, therefore, it would have been superfluous to examine the petition, which, though I might not wholly have approved it, I had no right to alter.

The petition was read, and is as follows:

"The humble petition of the merchants and traders of the city of London—showeth, that your petitioners are informed a bill is depending in this honourable house, for the encouragement and increase of seamen, and for the better and speedier manning his majesty's fleet, in which are clauses, that, should the bill pass into a law, your petitioners apprehend will be highly detrimental to the trade and navigation of this kingdom, by discouraging persons from entering into or being bred to the sea service, and entirely prevent the better and speedier manning his majesty's fleet, by giving the seamen of Great Britain, and of all other his majesty's dominions, a distaste of serving on board the royal navy.

"That your petitioners conceive nothing can be of so bad consequence to the welfare and defence of this nation, as the treating so useful and valuable a body of men, who are its natural strength and security, like criminals of the highest nature, and so differently from all other his majesty's subjects; and at the same time are persuaded, that the only effectual and speedy method of procuring, for the service of his majesty's fleet, a proportionable number of the sailors in this kingdom, is to distinguish that body of men by bounties and encouragements, both present and future, and by abolishing all methods of severity and ill usage, particularly that practice whereby they are deprived, after long and hazardous voyages, of enjoying, for a short space of time, the comforts of their families, and equal liberty with other their fellow-subjects in their native country.

"That your petitioners believe it will not be difficult to have such methods pointed out as will tend to supply the present necessities, and at the same time effectually promote the increase of seamen, when this honourable house shall think fit to inquire into a matter of such high importance to the naval power, trade, and riches of this kingdom.

"That your petitioners are convinced this bill will not only be ineffectual to answer the ends proposed by it, but will be destructive of the liberties of all his majesty's subjects, as it empowers any parish officer, accompanied with an unlimited number of persons, at any hour, by day or by night, to force open the dwelling-houses, warehouses, or other places, provided for the security and defence of their lives and fortunes, contrary to the undoubted liberties of the people of Great Britain, and the laws of this land.

"In consideration, therefore, of the premises, and of the particular prejudices, hardships, and dangers, which must inevitably attend your petitioners, and all others the merchants and traders of this kingdom, should this bill pass into a law, your petitioners most humbly pray this honourable house, that they may be heard by their counsel against the said clauses in the said bill."

Mr. BATHURST then presented a petition, and spoke as follows:—Sir, the alarm which the bill, now depending, has raised, is not confined to the city of London, or to any particular province of the king's dominions; the whole nation is thrown into commotions, and the effects of the law now proposed, are dreaded, far and wide, as a general calamity. Every town which owes its trade and its provisions to navigation, apprehends the approach of poverty and scarcity, and those which are less immediately affected, consider the infraction of our liberties as a prelude to their destruction. Happy would it be, if we, who are intrusted with their interest, could find any arguments to convince them that their terrour was merely panick.

That these fears have already extended their influence to the county which I represent, the petition which I now beg leave to lay before the house, will sufficiently evince; and I hope their remonstrances will prevail with this assembly to remove the cause of their disquiet, by rejecting the bill.

This was entitled "a petition of several gentlemen, freeholders, and other inhabitants of the county of Gloucester, in behalf of themselves, and all other, the freeholders of the said county," setting forth, in substance, "That the petitioners being informed that a bill was depending in this house, for the encouragement and increase of seamen, and for the better and speedier manning his majesty's fleet, containing several clauses which, should the bill pass into a law, would, as the petitioners apprehend, impose hardships upon the people too heavy to be borne, and create discontents in the minds of his majesty's subjects; would subvert all the rights and privileges of a Briton; and overturn Magna Charta itself, the basis on which they are built; and, by these means, destroy that very liberty, for the preservation of which the present royal family was established upon the throne of Britain; for which reasons, such a law could never be obeyed, or much blood would be shed in consequence of it."

Mr. Henry PELHAM then spoke, to this purport:—Sir, I have attended to this petition with the utmost impartiality, and have endeavoured to affix, to every period, the most innocent sense; but cannot forbear to declare it as my opinion, that it is far distant from the style of submission and request: instead of persuading, they attempt to intimidate us, and menace us with no less than bloodshed and rebellion. They make themselves the judges of our proceedings, and appeal, from our determinations, to their own opinion, and declare that they will obey no longer than they approve.

If such petitions as these, sir, are admitted; if the legislature shall submit to receive laws, and subjects resume, at pleasure, the power with which the government is vested, what is this assembly but a convention of empty phantoms, whose determinations are nothing more than a mockery of state?

Every insult upon this house is a violation of our constitution; and the constitution, like every other fabrick, by being often battered, must fall at last. It is, indeed, already destroyed, if there be, in the nation, any body of men who shall, with impunity, refuse to comply with the laws, plead the great charter of liberty against those powers that made it, and fix the limits of their own obedience.

I cannot, sir, pass over, in silence, the mention of the king, whose title to the throne, and the reasons for which he was exalted to it, are set forth with uncommon art and spirit of diction; but spirit, which, in my opinion, appears not raised by zeal, but by sedition; and which, therefore, it is our province to repress.

That his majesty reigns for the preservation of liberty, will be readily confessed; but how shall we be able to preserve it, if his laws are not obeyed?

Let us, therefore, in regard to the dignity of the assembly, to the efficacy of our determinations, and the security of our constitution, discourage all those who shall address us for the future, on this or any other occasion, from speaking in the style of governours and dictators, by refusing that this petition should be laid on the table.

[The question was put, and it was agreed, by the whole house, that it should not lie on the table.]

Mr. Henry PELHAM rose up again, and spoke thus:—Sir, I cannot but congratulate the house upon the unanimity with which this petition, a petition of which I speak in the softest language, when I call it irreverent and disrespectful, has been refused the regard commonly paid to the remonstrances of our constituents, whose rights I am far from desiring to infringe, when I endeavour to regulate their conduct, and recall them to their duty.

This is an occasion, on which it is, in my opinion, necessary to exert our authority with confidence and vigour, as the spirit of opposition must always be proportioned to that of the attack. Let us, therefore, not only refuse to this petition the usual place on our table, but reject it as unworthy of this house.

[The question was put, and the petition rejected, with scarcely any opposition.]

The house then entered upon the consideration of the bill, and when the report was made from the committee, and the blanks filled up, sir William YONGE spoke, in the following manner:—

Sir, the bill has been brought, by steady perseverance and diligent attention, to such perfection, that much more important effects may be expected from it than from any former law for the same purpose, if it be executed with the same calmness and resolution, the same contempt of popular clamour, and the same invariable and intrepid adherence to the publick good, that has been shown in forming and defending it.

But what can we hope from this, or any other law, if particular men, who cannot be convinced of its expedience, shall not only refuse to obey it, but declare their design of obstructing the execution of it? shall determine to retire from the sphere of their authority, rather than exercise it in compliance with the decree of the senate, and threaten, in plain terms, to call the country in to their assistance, and to pour the rabble by thousands upon those who shall dare to do their duty, and obey their governours?

Such declarations as these, sir, are little less than sallies of rebellion; and, if they pass without censure, will, perhaps, produce such commotions as may require to be suppressed by other means than forms of law and senatorial censures.

Nor do I think that, by rejecting the petition, we have sufficiently established our authority; for, in my opinion, we yielded too much in receiving it. The bill before us whatever may be its title, is, in reality, a money bill; a bill, by which aids are granted to the crown; and we have, therefore, no necessity of rejecting petitions on this occasion, because the standing orders of the house forbid us to admit them.

They then proceeded to the amendments, and when the clause for limiting the wages of seamen was read, sir John BARNARD rose up, and spoke to this effect:—

Sir, we are now to consider the clause to which the petition relates, which I have now presented, a petition on a subject of so general importance, and offered by men so well acquainted with every argument that can be offered, and every objection which can be raised, that their request of being heard by their council cannot be denied, without exposing us to the censure of adhering obstinately to our own opinions, of shutting our ears against information, of preferring expedition to security, and disregarding the welfare of our country.

It will not be necessary to defer our determinations on this clause for more than three days, though we should gratify this just and common request. And will not this loss be amply compensated by the satisfaction of the people, for whose safety we are debating, and by the consciousness that we have neglected nothing which might contribute to the efficacy of our measures?

The merchants, sir, do not come before us with loud remonstrances and harassing complaints, they do not apply to our passions, but our understandings, and offer such informations as will very much facilitate the publick service. It has been frequent, in the course of this debate, to hear loud demands for better expedients, and more efficacious, than those which have been proposed; and is it to be conceived that those who called thus eagerly for new proposals, intended not to inform themselves, but to silence their opponents?

From whom, sir, are the best methods for the prosecution of naval affairs to be expected, but from those whose lives are spent in the study of commerce, whose fortunes depend upon the knowledge of the sea, and who will, most probably, exert their abilities in contriving expedients to promote the success of the war, than they whom the miscarriage of our fleets must irreparably ruin?

The merchants, sir, are enabled by their profession to inform us—are deterred by their interest from deceiving us; they have, like all other subjects, a right to be heard on any question; and a better right than any other when their interest is more immediately affected; and, therefore, to refuse to hear them, will be, at once, impolitick and cruel; it will discover, at the same time, a contempt of the most valuable part of our fellow-subjects, and an inflexible adherence to our own opinions.

The expedient of asserting this to be a money bill, by which the just remonstrances of the merchants are intended to be eluded, is too trivial and gross to be adopted by this assembly: if this bill can be termed a money bill, and no petitions are, therefore, to be admitted against it, I know not any bill relating to the general affairs of the nation which may not plead the same title to an exemption from petitions.

I therefore desire that the consideration of this clause may be deferred for two days, that the arguments of the merchants may be examined, and that this affair may not be determined without the clearest knowledge and exactest information.

Sir Robert WALPOLE spoke next, to this effect:—Sir, the petition, whether justifiable or not, with regard to the occasion on which it is presented, or the language in which it is expressed, is certainly offered at an improper time, and, therefore, can lay no claim to the regard of this assembly.

The time prescribed, by the rules of this house, for the reception of petitions, is that at which the bill is first introduced, not at which it is to be finally determined.

The petition before us is said not to regard the bill in general, but a particular clause; and it is, therefore, asserted, that it may now properly be heard: but this plea will immediately vanish, when it shall be made appear that the clause is not mentioned in it, and that there is no particular relation between that and the petition, which I shall attempt—

Here sir John BARNARD, remarking that sir Robert WALPOLE had the petition in his hand, rose, and said:—Sir, I rise thus abruptly to preserve the order of this assembly, and to prevent any gentleman from having, in this debate, any other advantage, above the rest, than that of superiour abilities, or more extensive knowledge.

The petition was not ordered, by the house, to be placed in the right honourable gentleman's hand, but on the table; nor has he a right to make use of any other means for his information, than are in the power of any other member: if he is in doubt upon any particulars contained in it, he may move that the clerk should read it to the house.

Sir Robert WALPOLE laid down the paper; Mr. PELHAM rose, and said:—Sir, I am so far from thinking the rules of the house asserted, that, in my opinion, the right of the members is infringed by this peremptory demand. Is it not, in the highest degree, requisite, that he who is about to reason upon the petition should acquaint himself with the subject on which he is to speak.

What inconveniencies can ensue from such liberties as this, I am not able to discover; and, as all the orders of the house are, doubtless, made for more easy and expeditious despatch, if an order be contrary to this end, it ought to be abrogated for the reasons for which others are observed.

The confidence with which this petition was presented, will not suffer us to imagine that the person who offered it fears that it can suffer by a close examination; and I suppose, though he has spoken so warmly in favour of it, without perusing, he does not expect that others should with equal confidence admit—

Sir John BARNARD observing that sir Robert WALPOLE leaned forward towards the table, to read the petition as it lay, rose, and said:—Sir, I rise once more to demand the observation of the orders of the house, and to hinder the right honourable gentleman from doing by stratagem, what he did more openly and honestly before.

It was to little purpose that he laid down the petition, if he placed it within reach of his inspection? for I was only desirous, sir, to hinder him from reading, and was far from suspecting that he would take it away. I insist, that henceforward, he obey the rules of this assembly, with his eyes as well as with his hands, and take no advantage of his seat, which may enable him to perplex the question in debate.

Then the PRESIDENT spoke thus:—Sir, it is, undoubtedly, required by the orders of the house, that the petitions should lie upon the table; and that any member, who is desirous of any farther satisfaction, should move that they be read by the clerk, that every member may have the same opportunity of understanding and considering them; and that no one may be excluded from information, by the curiosity or delays of another. But the importance of this affair seems not to be so very great as to require a rigorous observance of the rules; and it were to be wished, for the ease and expedition of our deliberations, that gentlemen would rather yield points of indifference to one another, than insist so warmly on circumstances of a trivial nature.

Sir Robert WALPOLE then desired that the clerk might read the petition, which being immediately done, he proceeded in the following manner:—

Sir, having sat above forty years in this assembly, and never been called to order before, I was somewhat disconcerted by a censure so new and unexpected, and, in my opinion, undeserved. So that I am somewhat at a loss, with regard to the train of arguments which I had formed, and which I will now endeavour to recover. Yet I cannot but remark, that those gentlemen who are so solicitous for order in others, ought, themselves, invariably to observe it; and that if I have once given an unhappy precedent of violating the rules of this house, I have, in some measure, atoned for my inadvertence, by a patient attention to reproof, and a ready submission to authority.

I hope, sir, I may claim some indulgence from the motive of my offence, which was only a desire of accuracy, and an apprehension that I might, by mistaking or forgetting some passages in the petition, lose my own time, and interrupt the proceedings of the house to no purpose.

But having now, according to order, heard the petition, and found no reason to alter my opinion, I shall endeavour to convince the house that it ought not to be granted.

The petition, sir, is so far from bearing any particular relation to the clause now before us, that it does not, in any part, mention the expedient proposed in it, but contains a general declaration of discontent, suspicion, apprehensions of dangerous proceedings, and dislike of our proceedings; insinuations, sir, by no means consistent with the reverence due to this assembly, and which the nature of civil government requires always to be paid to the legislative power.

To suspect any man, sir, in common life, is in some degree to detract from his reputation, which must suffer in proportion to the supposed wisdom and integrity of him who declares his suspicion. To suspect the conduct of this senate, is to invalidate their decisions, and subject them to contempt and opposition.

Such, and such only, appears to be the tendency of the petition which has now been read; a petition, sir, very unskilfully drawn, if it was intended against the clause under our consideration, for it has not a single period or expression that does not equally regard all the other clauses.

If any particular objection is made, or any single grievance more distinctly pointed at, it is the practice of impresses, a hardship, I own, peculiar to the sailors; but it must be observed that it is a practice established by immemorial custom, and a train of precedents not to be numbered; and it is well known that the whole common law of this nation is nothing more than custom, of which the beginning cannot be traced.

Impresses, sir, have in all ages been issued out by virtue of the imperial prerogative, and have in all ages been obeyed; and if this exertion of the authority had been considered as a method of severity not compensated by the benefits which it produces, we cannot imagine but former senates, amidst all their ardour for liberty, all their tenderness for the people, and all their abhorrence of the power of the crown, would have obviated it by some law, at those times when nothing could have been refused them.

The proper time for new schemes and long deliberations, for amending our constitution, and removing inveterate grievances, are the days of prosperity and safety, when no immediate danger presses upon us, nor any publick calamity appears to threaten us; but when war is declared, when we are engaged in open hostilities against one nation, and expect to be speedily attacked by another, we are not to try experiments, but apply to dangerous evils those remedies, which, though disagreeable, we know to be efficacious.

And though, sir, the petitioners have been more particular, I cannot discover the reasonableness of hearing them by their council; for to what purpose are the lawyers to be introduced? Not to instruct us by their learning, for their employment is to understand the laws that have been already made, and support the practices which they find established. But the question before us relates not to the past but the future, nor are we now to examine what has been done in former ages, but what it will become us to establish on the present occasion; a subject of inquiry on which this house can expect very little information from the professors of the law?

Perhaps the petitioners expect from their counsel, that they should display the fecundity of their imagination, and the elegance of their language; that they should amuse us with the illusions of oratory, dazzle us with bright ideas, affect us with strong representations, and lull us with harmonious periods; but if it be only intended that just facts and valid arguments should be laid before us, they will be received without the decorations of the bar. For this end, sir, it would have been sufficient had the merchants informed their representatives of the methods which they have to propose; for the abilities of the gentlemen whom the city has deputed to this assembly, are well known to be such as stand in need of no assistance from occasional orators. Nor can it be expected that any men will be found more capable of understanding the arguments of the merchants, or better qualified to lay them before the senate.

That every petitioner has, except on money bills, a right to be heard, is undoubtedly true; but it is no less evident that this right is limited to a certain time, and that on this occasion the proper time is elapsed. Justice is due both to individuals and to the nation; if petitions may at any time be offered, and are, whenever offered, to be heard, a small body of men might, by unseasonable and importunate petitions, retard any occasional law, till it should become unnecessary.

Petitions, sir, are to be offered when a new bill is brought into the house, that all useful information may be obtained; but when it has passed through the examination of the committees, has been approved by the collective wisdom of the senate, and requires only a formal ratification to give it the force of a law, it is neither usual nor decent to offer petitions, or declare any dislike of what the senate has admitted.

We are not, when we have proceeded thus far, to suffer pleaders to examine our conduct, or vary our determinations, according to the opinions of those whom we ought to believe less acquainted with the question than ourselves. Should we once be reduced to ask advice, and submit to dictators, what would be the reputation of this assembly in foreign courts, or in our own country? What could be expected, but that our enemies of every kind would endeavour to regulate our determinations by bribing our instructers.

Nor can I think it necessary that lawyers should be employed in laying before us any scheme which the merchants may propose, for supplying the defects, and redressing the inconveniencies, of the laws by which sailors are at present levied for the royal navy; for how should lawyers be more qualified than other men, to explain the particular advantages of such expedients, or to answer any objections which may happen to rise?

It is well known that it is not easy for the most happy speaker to impress his notions with the strength with which he conceives them, and yet harder is the task of transmitting imparted knowledge, of conveying to others those sentiments which we have not struck out by our own reflection, nor collected from our own experience, but received merely from the dictates of another.

Yet such must be the information that lawyers can give us, who can only relate what they have implicitly received, and weaken the arguments which they have heard, by an imperfect recital.

Nor do I only oppose the admission of lawyers to our bar, but think the right of the merchants themselves, in the present case, very questionable; for though in general it must be allowed, that every petitioner has a claim to our attention, yet it is to be inquired whether it is likely that the publick happiness is his chief concern, and whether his private interest is not too much affected to suffer him to give impartial evidence, or honest information. Scarcely any law can be made by which some man is not either impoverished, or hindered from growing rich; and we are not to listen to complaints, of which the foundation is so easily discovered, or imagine a law less useful, because those who suffer some immediate inconvenience from it, do not approve it.

The question before us is required, by the present exigence of our affairs, to be speedily decided; and though the merchants have, with great tenderness, compassion, and modesty, condescended to offer us their advice, I think expedition preferable to any information that can reasonably be expected from them, and that as they will suffer, in the first place, by any misconduct of our naval affairs, we shall show more regard to their interest by manning our fleet immediately, than by waiting three or four days for farther instructions.

Mr. SANDYS answered to this effect:—Sir, the merchants of London whether we consider their numbers, their property, their integrity, or their wisdom, are a body of too much importance to be thus contemptuously rejected; rejected when they ask nothing that can be justly denied to the meanest subject of the empire, when they propose to speak on nothing but what their profession enables them to understand.

To no purpose is it urged, that the bill is far advanced, for if we have not proceeded in the right way, we ought to be in more haste to return, in proportion as we have gone farther; nor can I discover why we should expedite, with so much assiduity, measures which are judged ineffectual, by those who know their consequences best, and for whose advantage they are particularly designed.

That we have already spent so much time in considering methods for manning the fleet, is surely one reason why we should endeavour at last to establish such as may be effectual; nor can we hope to succeed without a patient attention to their opinion, who must necessarily be well experienced in naval affairs.

It is surely, therefore, neither prudent nor just to shut out intelligence from our assemblies, and ridicule the good intention of those that offer it, to consult upon the best expedients for encouraging and increasing sailors, and when the merchants offer their scheme, to treat them as saucy, impertinent, idle meddlers, that assume—

Here the ATTORNEY GENERAL called him to order, and spoke after this manner:—Sir, it is not very consistent to press the despatch of business, and to retard it, at the same time, by invidious insinuations, or unjust representations of arguments or expressions: whenever any expression is censured, it ought to be repeated in the same words; for otherwise, does not the animadverter raise the phantom that he encounters? Does he not make the stain, which he endeavours, with so much officious zeal, to wipe away.

That no epithets of contempt or ridicule have, in this debate, been applied to the merchants, nor any violation of decency attempted, it is unnecessary to prove, and, therefore, it is neither regular nor candid to represent any man as aggravating the refusal of their petition with reproaches and insults. But not to dwell longer on this incident, I will take the liberty of reminding the gentleman, that personal invectives are always, at least superfluous, and that the business of the day requires rather arguments than satire.

Mr. SANDYS then spoke as follows:—Sir, I am by no means convinced that the learned gentleman who charges me with irregularity, is better acquainted than myself with the rules and customs of this house, which I have studied with great application, assisted by long experience. I hope, therefore, it will be no inexcusable presumption, if, instead of a tacit submission to his censure, I assert, in my own vindication, that I have not deviated from the established rules of the senate, that I have spoken only in defence of merit insulted, and that I have condemned only such injurious insinuations. I did not, sir, attempt to repeat expressions, as ought not to be heard without reply.

Then the PRESIDENT said:—I believe the gentleman either heard imperfectly, or misunderstood these expressions, which he so warmly condemns, for nothing has been uttered that could justly excite his indignation. My office obliges me on this occasion to remark, that the regard due to the dignity of the house ought to restrain every member from digressions into private satire; for in proportion as we proceed with less decency, our determinations will have less influence.

Mr. PELHAM spoke next, in substance as follows:—Sir, the reputation which the honourable gentleman has acquired by his uncommon knowledge of the usages of the senate, is too well founded to be shaken, nor was any attack upon his character intended, when he was interrupted in the prosecution of his design. To censure any indecent expression, by whomsoever uttered, is, doubtless, consistent with the strictest regularity; nor is it less proper to obviate any misrepresentation which inattention or mistake may produce.

I am far, sir, from thinking that the gentleman's indignation was excited rather by malice than mistake; but mistakes of this kind may produce consequences which cannot be too cautiously avoided. How unwillingly would that gentleman propagate through the nation an opinion that the merchants were insulted in this house, their interest neglected, and their intelligence despised, at a time when no aspersion was thrown upon them, nor any thing intended but tenderness and regard? And yet such had been the representation of this day's debate, which this numerous audience would have conveyed to the populace, had not the mistake been immediately rectified, and the rumour crushed in the birth.

Nothing, sir, can be more injurious to the character of this assembly, by which the people are represented, than to accuse them of treating any class of men with insolence and contempt; and too much diligence cannot be used in obviating a report which cannot be spread in the nation, without giving rise to discontent, clamours, and sedition.

Those who shall be inclined to reject the petition, may, perhaps, act with no less regard to the merchants, and may promote their interest and their security with no less ardour than those who most solicitously labour for its reception: for, if they are not allowed to be heard, it is only because the publick interest requires expedition, and because every delay of our preparations is an injury to trade.

That this is not a proper time for petitions against the bill to be heard, is universally known; and I can discover nothing in the petition that restrains it to this particular clause, which is so far from being specified, that it appears to be the only part of the bill of which they have had no intelligence.

Let the warmest advocates for the petition point out any part of it that relates to this single clause, and I will retract my assertion; but as it appears that there are only general declarations of the inexpediency of the measures proposed, and the pernicious tendency of the methods now in use, what is the petition, but a complaint against the bill, and a request that it should be laid aside.

The practice of impresses, sir, is particularly censured, as severe and oppressive; a charge which, however true, has no relation to this clause, which is intended to promote the voluntary engagement of sailors in the service of the crown; yet it may not be improper to observe, that as the practice of impressing is, in itself, very efficacious, and well adapted to sudden emergencies; as it has been established by a long succession of ages, and is, therefore, become almost a part of our constitution; and as it is at this time necessary to supply the navy with the utmost expedition, it is neither decent nor prudent to complain too loudly against, or to heighten the discontent of the people at a necessary evil.

We have, sir, examined every part of this bill with the attention which the defence of the nation requires; we have softened the rigour of the methods first proposed, and admitted no violence or hardship that is not absolutely necessary, to make the law effectual, which, like every other law, must be executed by force, if it be obstructed or opposed. We have inserted a great number of amendments, proposed by those who are represented as the most anxious guardians of the privileges of the people; and it is not, surely, to no purpose that the great council of the nation has so long and so studiously laboured.

Those who are chosen by the people to represent them, have undoubtedly, sir, some claim as individuals to their confidence and respect; for to imagine that they have committed the great charge of senatorial employments, that they have trusted their liberties and their happiness to those whose integrity they suspect, or whose understandings they despise, is to imagine them much more stupid than they have been represented by those who are censured as their enemies.

But far different is the regard due to the determinations formed by the collective wisdom of the senate; a regard which ought to border upon reverence, and which is scarcely consistent with the least murmur of dissatisfaction.

If we are to hear the present petitioners, is it not probable, that before we have despatched them, we shall be solicited by others, who will then plead the same right, supported by a new precedent? And is it not possible that by one interruption upon another, our measures may be delayed, till they shall be ineffectual?

It seems to me to be of much more importance to defend the merchants than to hear them; and I shall, therefore, think no concessions at this time expedient, which may obstruct the great end of our endeavours, the equipment of the fleet.

Mr. PULTENEY then spoke as follows:—Sir, notwithstanding the art and eloquence with which this grant of the merchants' petition has been opposed, I am not yet able to discover that any thing is asked unreasonable, unprecedented, or inconvenient; and I am confident, that no real objection can have been overlooked by the gentlemen who have spoken against it.

I have spent, sir, thirty-five years of my life in the senate, and know that information has always, upon important questions, been willingly received; and it cannot surely be doubted that the petitioners are best able to inform us of naval business, and to judge what will be the right method of reconciling the sailors to the publick service, and of supplying our fleets without injuring our trade.

Their abilities and importance have been hitherto so generally acknowledged, that no senate has yet refused to attend to their opinion; and surely we ought not to be ambitious of being the first assembly of the representatives of the people, that has refused an audience to the merchants.

With regard to the expedience of delaying the bill at the present conjuncture, he must think very contemptuously of the petitioners, who imagines that they have nothing to offer that will counterbalance a delay of two days, and must entertain an elevated idea of the vigilance and activity of our enemies, enemies never before eminent for expedition, if he believes that they can gain great advantages in so short a time.

The chief reason of the opposition appears, indeed, not to be either the irregularity or inexpediency of hearing them, but the offence which some have received from an irreverent mention of the power of impressing, a power which never can be mentioned without complaint or detestation.

It is not, indeed, impossible that they may intend to represent to the house, how much the sailors are oppressed, how much our commerce is impeded, and how much the power of the nation is exhausted, by this cruel method. They may propose to show that sailors, not having the choice of their voyages, are often hurried through a sudden change of climates, from one extreme to another, and that nothing can be expected from such vicissitudes, but sickness, lameness, and death. They may propose, that to have just arrived from the south may be pleaded as an exemption from an immediate voyage to the north, and that the seaman may have some time to prepare himself for so great an alteration, by a residence of a few months in a temperate climate.

If this should be their intention, it cannot, in my opinion, sir, be called either unreasonable or disrespectful, nor will their allegations be easily disproved.

But it is insinuated, that their grievances are probably such as affect them only as distinct from the rest of the community, and that they have nothing to complain of but a temporary interruption of their private advantage.

I have, indeed, no idea of the private advantage of a legal trader: for unless, sir, we neglect our duty of providing that no commerce shall be carried on to the detriment of the publick, the merchant's profit must be the profit of the nation, and their interests inseparably combined.

It may, however, be possible, that the merchants may, like other men, prefer their immediate to their greater advantage, and may be impatient of a painful remedy, though necessary to prevent a more grievous evil. But let us not censure them by suspicion, and punish them for a crime which it is only possible they may commit; let us, sir, at least have all the certainty that can be obtained, and allow them an audience; let us neither be so positive as not to receive information, nor so rigorous as not to listen to entreaties.

If the merchants have nothing to offer, nothing but complaints, and can propose no better measures than those which they lament, if their arguments should be found to regard only their present interest, and to be formed upon narrow views and private purposes, it will be easy to detect the imposture, and reject it with the indignation it shall deserve; nor will our proceedings be then censured by the nation, which requires not that the merchants should be implicitly believed, though it expects that they should be heard. Let us at least have a convention, though we should not be able to conclude a treaty.

I know not, sir, why we have not taken care to obviate all these difficulties, and to remove the necessity of petitions, debates, searches, and impresses, by the plain and easy method of a voluntary register; by retaining such a number of seamen as may probably be requisite upon sudden emergencies. Would not the nation with more cheerfulness contribute half-pay to those who are daily labouring for the publick good, than to the caterpillars of the land service, that grow old in laziness, and are disabled only by vice?

Let ten thousand men receive daily a small salary, upon condition that they shall be ready, whenever called upon, to engage in the service of the crown, and the difficulty of our naval preparations will be at an end.

That it is necessary to exert ourselves on this occasion, and to strike out some measures for securing the dominion of the ocean, cannot be denied by any one who considers that we have now no other pretensions to maintain; that all our influence on the continent, at whatever expense gained and supported, is now in a manner lost, and only the reputation of our naval strength remains to preserve us from being trampled on and insulted by every power, and from finding Spaniards in every climate.

Sir William YONGE spoke, in substance, as follows:—Sir, the violence and severity of impresses, so often and so pathetically complained of, appears to be now nothing more than a punishment inflicted upon those who neglect or refuse to receive the encouragement offered, with the utmost liberality, by the government, and decline the service of their country from a spirit of avarice, obstinacy, or resentment.

That such men deserve some severities, cannot be doubted, and therefore a law by which no penalty should be enacted, would be imperfect and ineffectual. The observation, sir, of all laws is to be enforced by rewards on one side, and punishments on the other, that every passion may be influenced, and even our weakness made instrumental to the performance of our duty.

In the bill before us no punishment is, indeed, expressly decreed, because the sailors who shall disregard it, are only left to their former hardships, from which those who engage voluntarily in the service of the navy are exempted.

Why so many rewards and so much violence should be necessary to allure or force the sailors into the publick service, I am unable to comprehend: for, excepting the sudden change of climates, which may, doubtless, sometimes bring on distempers, the service of the king has no disadvantages which are not common to that of the merchants.

The wages in the navy are, indeed, less: but then it is to be remembered, that they are certainly paid, and that the sailor is in less danger of losing, by a tempest or a wreck, the whole profits of his voyage; because, if he can preserve his life, he receives his pay. But in trading voyages, the seamen mortgage their wages, as a security for their care, which, if the ship is lost, they are condemned to forfeit.

Thus, sir, the hardships of the navy appear not so great when compared with those of the merchants' service, as they have been hitherto represented; and I doubt not, that if counsellors were to be heard on both sides, the measures taken for supplying the fleet would be found to be reasonable and just.

Sir John BARNARD rose to speak, when Mr. FOX called to order, and proceeded:

Sir, it is well known to be one of the standing and unvariable orders of this house, that no member shall speak twice in a debate on the same question, except when for greater freedom we resolve ourselves into a committee. Upon this question the honourable gentleman has already spoken, and cannot, therefore, be heard again without such a transgression of our orders as must inevitably produce confusion.

Sir John BARNARD spoke thus:—Sir, I know not for what reason the honourable gentleman apprehends any violation of the order of the house; for, as I have not yet spoken upon the present question, I have an undoubted right to be heard, a right which that gentleman cannot take away.

Sir William YONGE next spoke, to this effect:—Sir, I know not by what secret distinction the gentleman supports in his own mind this declaration, which, to the whole house, must appear very difficult to be defended; for we must, before we can admit it, allow our memories to have forsaken us, and our eyes and ears to have been deceived.

Did he not, as soon as the clause before us was read, rise and assert the characters of the petitioners, and their right to the attention of the house? Did he not dwell upon their importance, their abilities, and their integrity; and enforce, with his usual eloquence, every motive to the reception of the petition? How then can he assert that he has not spoken in the present debate, and how can he expect to be heard a second time, since, however his eloquence may please, and his arguments convince, that pleasure and conviction cannot now be obtained, without infringing the standing orders of the house.

Then the PRESIDENT rose, and spoke to this purport: It is not without uneasiness that I see the time of the house, and of the publick, wasted in fruitless cavils and unnecessary controversies. Every gentleman ought now to consider that we are consulting upon no trivial question, and that expedition is not less necessary than accuracy. It cannot be denied, sir, [to sir John BARNARD] that you have already spoken on this question, and that the rules of the house do not allow you to speak a second time.

Sir Robert WALPOLE said:—Sir, I am far from thinking the order of the house so sacred, as that it may not be neglected on some important occasions; and if the gentleman has any thing to urge so momentous, that, in his own opinion, it outweighs the regard due to our rules, I shall willingly consent that he shall be heard.

Sir John BARNARD spoke as follows:—Sir, I am far from being inclined to receive as a favour, what, in my own opinion, I may claim as a right, and desire not to owe the liberty of speaking to the condescension of the right honourable gentleman.

What I have to urge is no less against the bill in general, than the particular clause now immediately under our consideration, and though the petition should relate likewise to the whole bill, I cannot discover why we should refuse to hear it.

Petitions from men of much inferiour rank, and whose interest is much less closely connected with that of the publick, have been thought necessary to be heard, nor is the meanest individual to be injured or restrained, without being admitted to offer his arguments in his own favour. Even the journeymen shoemakers, one of the lowest classes of the community, have been permitted to bring their counsel to our bar, and remonstrate against the inconveniencies to which they were afraid of being subjected.

Mr. WINNINGTON spoke thus:—Sir, I am always willing to hear petitions, when respectfully drawn up, and regularly subscribed, but can by no means discover that this is a real petition, for I have heard of no names affixed to it; it is, therefore, a request from nobody, and by rejecting it no man is refused. It may, so far as can be discovered, be drawn up by the gentleman who offered it, and, perhaps, no other person may be acquainted with it.

Mr. HAY spoke to the following purport:—Sir, it is, in my opinion, necessary that a petition in the name of the merchants of London should be subscribed by the whole number, for if only a few should put their names to it, how does it appear that it is any thing more than an apprehension of danger to their own particular interest, which, perhaps, the other part, their rivals in trade, may consider as an advantage, or at least regard with indifference. This suspicion is much more reasonable, when a petition is subscribed by a smaller number, who may easily be imagined to have partial views, and designs not wholly consistent with the interest of the publick.

Admiral WAGER then spoke thus:—Sir, if I am rightly informed, another petition is preparing by several eminent merchants, that this clause may stand part of the bill; and, certainly, they ought to be heard as well as the present petitioners, which will occasion great and unnecessary delays, and, therefore, I am against the motion.

Advocate CAMPBELL answered to this effect:—Sir, I agree with that honourable gentleman, that if the merchants are divided in opinion upon this point, one side ought to be heard as well as the other, and hope the house will come to a resolution for that purpose: for I shall invariably promote every proposal which tends to procure the fullest information in all affairs that shall come before us.

[Then the question was put, that the farther consideration of the report be adjourned for two days, in order to hear the merchants, and it passed in the negative, ayes, 142; noes, 192.]

[On the report this day, the eleven clauses of severity were given up without any division, and a clause was added, viz. "Provided that nothing in this bill shall be construed to extend to any contracts or agreements for the hire of seamen (or persons employed as such) in voyages from parts beyond the seas, to any other parts beyond the seas, or to Great Britain."]

The engrossed bill "for the increase and encouragement of seamen," was read, according to order, when Mr. DIGBY rose, and spoke as follows:—

Sir, I have a clause to be offered to the house, as necessary to be inserted in the bill before us, which was put into my hands by a member, whom a sudden misfortune has made unable to attend his duty, and which, in his opinion, and mine, is of great importance, and I shall, therefore, take the liberty of reading it.

"Be it enacted, that every seaman offering himself to serve his majesty, shall, upon being refused, receive from such captain, lieutenant, or justice of the peace, a certificate, setting forth the reasons for which he is refused, which certificate may be produced by him, as an exemption from being seized by a warrant of impress."

I hope the reasonableness and equity of this clause is so incontestably apparent, that it will find no opposition; for what can be more cruel, unjust, or oppressive, than to punish men for neglect of a law which they have endeavoured to obey. To what purpose are rewards offered, if they are denied to those who come to claim them? What is it less than theft, and fraud, to force a man into the service, who would willingly have entered, and subject him to hardships, without the recompense which he may justly demand from the solemn promise of the legislature.

Admiral WAGER next spoke to this effect:—Sir, to this clause, which the gentleman has represented as so reasonable and just, objections may, in my opinion, be easily made, of which he will himself acknowledge the force. The great obstruction of publick measures is partiality, whether from friendship, bribery, or any other motive; against partiality alone the clause which is now offered, is levelled; and, indeed, it is so dangerous an evil, that it cannot be obviated with too much caution.

But this clause, instead of preventing private correspondence, and illegal combinations, has an evident tendency to produce them, by inciting men to apply with pretended offers of service to those who are before suborned to refuse them, then make a merit of their readiness, and demand a certificate.

By such artifices multitudes may exempt themselves from the impress, who may be known to be able sailors, even by those that conduct it; and may, under the protection of a certificate, fallaciously obtained, laugh at all endeavours to engage them in the publick service.

Mr. DIGBY spoke thus:—Sir, if this authority, lodged in the hands of those who are proposed in the clause to be intrusted with it, be in danger of being executed, without due regard to the end for which it is granted, let it be placed where there is neither temptation nor opportunity to abuse it. Let the admiralty alone have the power of granting such certificates, the officers of which will be able to judge whether the sailor is really unfit for the service, and deliver those whom age or accidents have disabled from the terrour of impresses; for surely, he that is fit to serve, when taken by violence, is no less qualified when he enters voluntarily, and he who could not be admitted when he tendered himself, ought not to be dragged away, when, perhaps, he has contracted for another voyage.

Mr. WAGER replied:—Sir, it is, doubtless, more proper to place such authority in the officers of the admiralty, than in any other; but it does not appear that the benefit which the sailors may receive from it, to whatever hands it is intrusted, will not be overbalanced by the injury which the publick will probably suffer.

Sailors are frequently levied in remote parts of the kingdom; in ports where the admiralty cannot speedily be informed of the reasons for which those that may petition for certificates have been refused, and therefore cannot grant them without danger of being deceived by fraudulent accounts.

The grievance for which the remedy is proposed cannot frequently occur; for it is not probable that in a time of naval preparations, any man qualified for the service should be rejected, since the officers gain nothing by their refusal.

Mr. HAY spoke as follows:—Sir, it is very possible that those instances which may be produced of men, who have been impressed by one officer, after they have been rejected by another, may be only the consequences of the high value which every man is ready to set upon his own abilities: for he that offers himself, no doubt, demands the highest premium, though he be not an able sailor; and, if rejected, and afterwards impressed as a novice, thinks himself at liberty to complain, with the most importunate vehemence, of fraud, partiality, and oppression.

[The question being put was resolved in the negative, almost unanimously.]

Mr. SOUTHWELL offered a clause, importing, "That all sailors who should take advance-money of the merchants, should be obliged to perform their agreements, or be liable to be taken up by any magistrate or justice of the peace, and deemed deserters, except they were in his majesty's ships of war."

He was seconded by lord GAGE:—Sir, as this clause has no other tendency than to promote the interest of the merchants, without obstructing the publick preparations; as it tends only to confirm legal contracts, and facilitate that commerce from whence the wealth and power of this nation arises, I hope it will readily be admitted; as we may, by adding this sanction to the contracts made between the merchants and sailors, in some degree balance the obstructions wherewith we have embarrassed trade by the other clauses.

Admiral WAGER replied:—This clause is unquestionably reasonable, but not necessary; for it is to be found already in an act made for the encouragement of the merchants, which is still in force, and ought, whenever any such frauds are committed, to be rigorously observed.

Sir Robert WALPOLE then desired that the clerk might read the act, in which the clause was accordingly found, and Mr. SOUTHWELL withdrew his motion.

[Then the question was put, whether the bill "for the increase and encouragement of sailors" do pass, which was resolved in the affirmative, 153 against 79.]



HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 13, 1740-1.

[DEBATE ON THE BILL FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF MUTINY AND DESERTION.]

The house being resolved into a committee for the consideration of the bill for the punishment of mutiny and desertion, and for the better payment of the army and their quarters, etc. sir William YONGE desired that the twentieth and twenty-sixth clauses of the late act might be read, which were read as follows:

XX. It is hereby enacted, that the officers and soldiers, so quartered and billeted, shall be received by the owners of the inns, livery-stables, ale-houses, victualling-houses, and other houses in which they are allowed to be quartered and billeted by this act; and shall pay such reasonable prices as shall be appointed, from time to time, by the justices of the peace, in their general and quarter-sessions of each county, city, or division, within their respective jurisdictions: and the justices of the peace aforesaid, are hereby empowered and required to set and appoint, in their general or quarter-sessions aforesaid, such reasonable rates, for all necessary provisions for such officers and soldiers, for one or more nights, in the several cities, towns, villages and other places, which they shall come to in their march, or which shall be appointed for their residence and quarters.

XXVI. That the quarters, both of officers and soldiers in Great Britain, may be duly paid and satisfied, be it enacted, that every officer, to whom it belongs to receive the pay or subsistence-money, either for a whole regiment, or particular troops and companies, shall immediately, upon each receipt of every particular sum, on account of pay or subsistence, give publick notice thereof to all persons keeping inns, or other places where officers or soldiers are quartered by virtue of this act: also appoint them and others to repair to their quarters, within four days at the farthest, after the receipt of the same, to declare the accounts or debts (if any shall be) between them and the officers and soldiers quartered in their respective houses: which accounts the said officer or officers are hereby required immediately to discharge, before any part of the said pay or subsistence be distributed to the officers or soldiers: provided the said accounts exceed not for a commission officer of horse, under a captain, for one day's diet and small beer, two shillings; for one commission officer of dragoons, under a captain, one shilling; for one commission officer of foot, under a captain one shilling; and for hay and straw, for one horse, sixpence; for one dragoon or light horseman's diet and small beer, each day sixpence, and hay and straw for his horse, sixpence; and also not to exceed fourpence a-day, for one foot soldier's diet and small beer.

He then spoke to the following effect:—Sir, whether there is any real difficulty in the clauses which you have now heard read, or whether there are such passages as may be easily understood by those who have no interest to mistake them, and which are only clouded by an artificial obscurity, whether they are in themselves capable of different meanings, or whether avarice or poverty have produced unreasonable interpretations, and found ambiguities only because they were determined not to be disappointed in their search; whether this law is disobeyed because it is misunderstood, or only misunderstood by those who have resolved to disobey it, the committee must determine.

It has been for many years understood that innholders and keepers of publick-houses were obliged by this law to supply soldiers quartered upon them with diet and small beer, and hay and straw for their horses, at such rates as are mentioned in the act; nor can I discover that these clauses admit of any other interpretation, or that any other could be intended by the senate by which it was enacted. The pay of the soldiers, sir, was well known to those who gave their consent to this law, it was intended by them that the soldiers should be supplied with necessaries, and it could not be meant that they should pay for them more than they received; they, therefore, established the rate at which they were to be furnished, and fixed the highest rate which the wages of a soldier allow him to pay.

This interpretation was, as I suppose, from its apparent consonance to reason, universally allowed, till the inhabitants of Ledbury, whither soldiers had been sent to suppress a riot and enforce the laws, found their apprehensions so sharpened by their malice, that they discovered in the act an ambiguity, which had, till that time, escaped the penetration of the most sagacious, and, upon comparison of one circumstance with another, found themselves under no obligation to give any assistance to the soldiers.

They therefore, sir, not only refused to afford them victuals at the accustomed rates, but proceeding from one latitude of interpretation to another, at length denied them not only the privilege of diet, but the use of kitchen utensils, to dress the provisions which they bought for themselves, and at last denied their claim to the fire itself.

The soldiers, exasperated not only at the breach of their established and uncontested privileges, but at the privation of the necessaries of life, began to think of methods more speedy and efficacious than those of arguments and remonstrances, and to form resolutions of procuring by force, what, in their opinions, was only by force withheld from them.

What might have been the event of this controversy, to what extremities a contest about things so necessary might have been carried, how wide the contest might have spread, or how long it might have lasted, we may imagine, but cannot determine; had not a speedy decision been procured, its consequences might have been fatal to multitudes, and a great part of the nation been thrown into confusion.

Having received an account of the affair from the officers who commanded at that place, I consulted the attorney-general what was the design of the law, and the extent of the obligation enforced by it, and was answered by him, that the sums which were to be paid for the diet of the men, and the hay and straw for the horses, being specified, it must necessarily be intended, by the legislature, that no higher rates should be demanded;—that the power granted to the justices of peace was wholly in favour of the soldier, and that they might lessen the payment at discretion in places of uncommon cheapness, or years of extraordinary plenty, but could not increase it on any occasion.

Another dispute, sir, of the like nature was occasioned by the late scarcity at Wakefield, where the justices, upon the application of the innkeepers, made use of the authority which they supposed to have been reposed in them by the act, and raised the price of hay and straw to eight-pence, which the soldiers were not able to pay, without suffering for want of victuals.

On this occasion, likewise, I was applied to, and upon consulting the present attorney-general, received the same answer as before; and transmitting his opinion to the place from whence I received the complaint, it had so much regard paid to it, that the additional demand was thence-forward remitted.

The letters which those two learned lawyers sent to me on this subject I have now in my hand; and hope their opinion will be thought sufficient authority for the interpretation of an act of the senate.

Nor is their authority, sir, however great, so strong a proof of the justness of this interpretation, as the reasonableness, or rather necessity of admitting it. The only argument that can be produced against it, is the hardship imposed by it on the innholder, who, as it is objected, must be obliged by the law, so understood, to furnish the soldiers with provisions for a price at which he cannot afford them.

But let it be considered, how much more easily the landlord can furnish them at this price, than they can provide for themselves, and the difficulty will immediately vanish. If soldiers are necessary, they must necessarily be supported, and it appears, upon reflection, that their pay will not support them by any other method. If they are obliged to buy their victuals, they must likewise buy fire and implements to dress them; and what is still a greater hardship, they must sell them, and buy new, at every change of their quarters; if this is impossible, it will be allowed not to be the meaning of the senate, upon whose wisdom it would be a censure too severe to suppose them capable of enacting impossibilities.

But to the innholder, sir, whose utensils are always in use, and whose fire is always burning, the diet of a soldier costs only the original price paid to the butcher; and, in years of common plenty, may be afforded, without loss, at the price mentioned in the act. It cannot, indeed, be denied, that, at present, every soldier is a burden to the family on which he is quartered, in many parts of the kingdom; but, it may be reasonably hoped, that the present scarcity will quickly cease, and that provisions will fall back to their former value; and even, amidst all the complaints with which the severity and irregularity of the late seasons have filled the nation, there are many places where soldiers may be maintained at the stated rates, with very little hardship to their landlords.

However, sir, as this interpretation of the act, though thus supported, both by authority and reason, has been disputed and denied; as some lawyers may be of a different opinion from those whom I have consulted; and as it is not likely that the practice, thus interrupted, will now be complied with as a prescription; I think it necessary to propose, that the price of a soldier's diet be more explicitly ascertained, that no room may remain for future controversies.

Mr. SANDYS then rose, and spoke as follows:—Sir, I am very far from thinking the authority of these learned gentlemen, whose letters are produced, incontrovertible proof of the justness of an interpretation of an act of the senate, where that interpretation is not in itself warranted by reason, nor consistent with the preservation or enjoyment of property. Much less shall I agree to support their interpretation by a new law; or establish, by an act of the legislature, a kind of oppression, for which, however tacitly submitted to, nothing could be pleaded hitherto but custom.

The burden, sir, of a standing army, is already too heavy to be much longer supported, nor ought we to add weight to it by new impositions; it surely much better becomes the representatives of the nation to attend to the complaints of their constituents; and where they are found to arise from real grievances, to contrive some expedient for alleviating their calamities.

A heavy and dreadful calamity, sir, lies now, in a particular manner, upon the people; the calamity of famine, one of the severest scourges of providence, has filled the whole land with misery and lamentation; and, surely, nothing can be more inhuman than to choose out this season of horrour for new encroachments on their privileges, and new invasions of the rights of nature, the dominion of their own houses, and the regulation of their own tables.

The honourable gentleman, sir, has mentioned places where provisions, as he says, are still to be bought at easy rates. For my part, I am fixed in no such happy corner of the kingdom; I see nothing but scarcity, and hear nothing but complaints; and shall, therefore, be very far from admitting now such methods of supporting the army, as were thought too burdensome in times of plenty; nor will combine in laying a new tax upon any class of my countrymen, when they are sinking under an enormous load of imposts, and in want of the necessaries of life.

Sir William YONGE replied, in the manner following:—Sir, nothing is more easy than outcry and exaggeration; nor any thing less useful for the discovery of truth, or the establishment of right. The most necessary measures may often admit of very florid exclamations against them, and may furnish very fruitful topicks of invective.

When our liberties, sir, are endangered, or our country invaded, it may be very easy, when it is proposed that we should have recourse to our swords for security, to bewail, in pathetick language, the miseries of war, to describe the desolation of cities, the waste of kingdoms, the insolence of victory, and the cruelty of power inflamed by hostilities. Yet to what will those representations contribute, but to make that difficult which yet cannot be avoided, and embarrass measures which must, however, be pursued.

Such, sir, appear to me to be the objections made to the methods now proposed of providing necessaries for the soldiers; methods not eligible for their own sake, but which ought not to be too loudly condemned, till some better can be substituted; for why should the publick be alarmed with groundless apprehensions? or why should we make those laws which our affairs oblige us to enact, less agreeable to the people by partial representations?