 |
A. On the Saturday, at the time I saw him.
Q. At what profit did you sell?
A. At three-fourths per cent profit.
Q. What was the price?
A. 28-1/4.
Q. Have you given the account of this to Mr. Baily?
A. Yes I have.
Cross-examined by Mr. Brougham.
Q. You were partner with Mr. Fearn, Senior, Mr. Butts, broker, were not you?
A. Yes, formerly I was.
Q. Did you not apply to Mr. Butt, stating that you had a wife and family, and wishing him to give you some employment.
A. Mr. Butt had been known to me ten or twelve years, and known to Mr. Fearn, Senior, only as being one of my customers in the book line.
Q. Did you not apply to Mr. Butt yourself to ask him to serve you.
A. Not upon this occasion at all.
Q. Will you hear the question first, and then answer it. Did you never before this apply to Mr. Butt to give you some of his business?
A. Yes I did.
Q. And he did give you some of his business upon this day?
A. He did.
Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.
Q. Was any of the Omnium bought for Mr. Butt, paid for?
A. I would rather decline answering that.
Mr. Francis Baily called again.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. These gentlemen have informed us that they have furnished you with the exact statements of all the purchases and sales; have you drawn out from their statements the purchases and sales, and the daily balances of each?
A. I have. It may be necessary to state, Mr. Richardson has not furnished me with a written account, but I have taken it down now from his own mouth.
Q. Have you from that made out a general statement of the several accounts containing the daily purchases, the daily sales, and the daily balances?
A. I have.
Q. For Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, Lord Cochrane, and Mr. Butt?
A. Yes.
The account was delivered in and read, as follows;—
====================================================================== General Statement of A. Cochrane Johnstone's Omnium Account, from 8th to 21st Feb. 1814 - through Fearn through Hichens - Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Purchases Sales Balances Purchases Sales Balances - - - 1814, Feb. 8 10,000 10,000 9 47,000 10,000 47,000 20,000 20,000 10 78,000 105,000 20,000 150,000 170,000 11 115,000 35,000 100,000 95,000 265,000 12 100,000 265,000 14 96,500 100,000 96,500 200,000 465,000 15 13,500 110,000 465,000 16 18,500 10,000 118,500 200,000 265,000 17 11,000 19,500 110,000 50,000 115,000 200,000 18 38,000 148,000 50,000 250,000 19 18,000 130,000 250,000 21 120,000 10,000 250,000 ======================================================================
====================================================================== General Statement of A. Cochrane Johnstone's Omnium Account, from 8th to 21st Feb. 1814 - through Smallbone. TOTALS. - Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Purchases Sales Balances Purchases Sales Balances - - 1814, Feb. 8 10,000 10,000 9 67,000 10,000 67,000 10 228,000 105,000 190,000 11 210,000 35,000 365,000 12 20,000 20,000 20,000 385,000 14 20,000 40,000 316,500 100,000 601,500 15 40,000 13,500 615,000 16 40,000 18,500 210,000 423,500 17 40,000 61,000 134,500 350,000 18 40,000 88,000 438,000 19 40,000 18,000 420,000 21 40,000 410,000 10,000 ======================================================================
========================================================================= A. Cochrane Johnstone's Lord Cochrane's Consol Account Omnium Account, from 12th to 21st Feb. 1814 from 14th to 21st Feb. 1814 - through Fearn through Fearn Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Purchases Sales Balances Purchases Sales Balances - - 1814, Feb. 8 9 10 11 12 100,000 100,000 14 100,000 100,000 100,000 15 100,000 100,000 16 100,000 50,000 150,000 17 100,000 50,000 100,000 18 100,000 36,000 136,000 19 100,000 20,000 17,000 139,000 21 139,000 =========================================================================
==================================================================== General Statement of R. G. Butt's Omnium Account, from 8th to 21st Feb. 1814. - through Fearn through Richardson - - - - Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Purchases Sales Balances Purchases Sales Balances - - - - Feb. 8 10,000 10,000 9 50,000 10,000 50,000 10 78,000 110,000 18,000 11 115,000 33,000 100,000 12 100,000 14 96,500 100,000 96,500 15 13,500 110,000 16 18,500 10,000 118,500 17 11,000 19,500 110,000 18 38,000 148,000 19 18,000 130,000 50,000 20,000 30,000 21 154,000 24,000 30,000 Sold too much. ====================================================================
=================================================================== General Statement of R. G. Butt's Omnium Account, from 8th to 21st Feb. 1814. through Smallbone TOTALS - - Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Daily Purchases Sales Balances Purchases Sales Balances - - - Feb. 8 10,000 10,000 9 50,000 10,000 50,000 10 78,000 110,000 18,000 11 115,000 33,000 100,000 12 20,000 20,000 20,000 120,000 14 10,000 30,000 106,500 100,000 126,500 15 30,000 13,500 140,000 16 30,000 18,500 10,000 148,500 17 30,000 11,000 19,500 140,000 18 10,000 40,000 48,000 188,000 19 40,000 50,000 38,000 200,000 21 40,000 24,000 Sold too much. ===================================================================
======================================== R. G. Butt's Consol Account, from 11th to 21st Feb. 1814 - through Fearn - Daily Daily Daily Purchases Sales Balances - - - Feb. 8 9 10 11 46,000 20,000 26,000 12 87,000 113,000 14 113,000 15 55,000 168,000 16 40,000 208,000 17 208,000 18 208,000 19 30,000 178,000 21 168,000 10,000 ========================================
Q. What appears at last to be the gross balance held by each of them on the 19th February; what is Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's balance of Omnium from all those different accounts, on the 19th February?
A. L420,000.
Q. Now state Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's Consol Account.
A. L100,000.
Q. What was the balance of Lord Cochrane's Omnium account?
A. L139,000.
Q. Now state Mr. Butt's.
A. L200,000.
Q. And it appears, I see, that there were L24,000 sold too much on the Monday.
A. Exactly so; there was that quantity sold more than he had purchased.
Q. What was Mr. Butt's Consol Account?
A. L178,000, and he sold only L168,000.
Lord Ellenborough. Then there was L24,000 too much of his Omnium, and L10,000 too little of his Consols sold?
Mr. Gurney. Exactly so. Now what was the gross amount of their account of balances on that day?
A. L759,000 Omnium, and L278,000 Consols.
Q. As we are not so well acquainted with Omnium as you are, if that were reduced to Consols what would they have amounted to?
A. It may be necessary to state, that every thousand pounds Omnium consists of L1100 Reduced and L670 Consols, therefore the whole amount of that would be L1,611,430 three per cents.
Q. Now upon that amount, what would the fraction of a single eighth per cent. be?
A. L2014:5:9.
Lord Ellenborough. The whole of this fund was cleared on the 21st, except L10,000 Consols, and it was oversold by L24,000 Omnium?
A. Exactly so.
Mr. Gurney. Have you calculated from the accounts, the profits made by those sales of the 21st?
A. I have.
Q. To what does it amount?
A. Exactly L10,450.
Q. That is the total of the three. Can you give me the proportion of each?
A. For Lord Cochrane L2470, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone L4931:5, Mr. Butt L3048:15.
Q. From the state of the market on the morning of the 21st if no news had arrived such as raised the funds on that day, could any persons have sold this large quantity of Omnium and Consols without very much depressing the market?
A. I should think not certainly.
Q. Do you remember at what price Omnium left off on Saturday the 19th?
A. I have referred back to the books; I cannot state from my own memory.
Q. Have you the books here?
A. No; they are the books of the Stock Exchange.
Q. Mr. Wetenall's accounts?
A. Yes.
Q. How soon after the business at the Stock Exchange began on the morning of the 21st did the news arrive there?
A. I should think in about half an hour after, but I really am not quite certain to that point.
Lord Ellenborough. The business begins at ten, I believe?
A. Yes.
Mr. Gurney. As soon as the news came, had it a sensible effect on the funds?
A. Yes; a gradual effect, according as the report was believed.
Q. Do you remember after some time whether there was any check or decline?
A. Yes; there was about the middle of the day.
Q. I mean the first decline.
A. Yes; afterwards they recovered.
Q. To what was that recovery owing?
A. It was generally attributed to the news that came through the city.
Q. You mean the chaise coming through the city?
A. Yes; it was generally believed it was a confirmation of the former report.
Q. Did that second rise which took place upon the chaise going through the city, extend still higher than it had been on the report of the arrival of the messenger?
A. I think it did.
Cross-examined by Mr. Park.
Q. You are not under the same restraint as the other persons are, can you tell us whether these were real transactions, or only fictitious ones which daily take place at the Stock Exchange?
A. The accounts which were given in, I think were given in for time, but I have only taken out the figures.
Lord Ellenborough. I should imagine the witness would say that from the magnitude of the accounts he would think they were for time?
A. Certainly.
Mr. Park. I want to know, for I have never had Omnium in my life, whether you are not competent to say from your knowledge of these accounts, that these are all what they call time bargains?
A. There is nothing stated upon the face of these accounts as to what days the purchases are made for; possibly they may be for time.
Q. I ask you whether from your knowledge of these accounts and the investigations you have made, they are not time bargains?
Lord Ellenborough. He has no personal knowledge of them, he can know nothing but from the magnitude of the sum, he may suppose they must have been time bargains.
A. Certainly; there is nothing upon the face of the accounts to lead to any such conclusion.
Mr. James Wetenall, sworn.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. I believe you are employed by the House to take the prices of the day at the Stock Exchange?
A. I am.
Q. At what price did Omnium leave off on Saturday the 19th of February?
(The Witness referred to a paper.)
Mr. Serjeant Best. Where do you get those accounts from?
A. I collect them from the Stock Exchange.
Mr. Gurney. Do you go about all day long taking the prices?
A. I collect them at different times in the course of the day.
Q. You go about taking an account from all the persons who are there?
A. I take them from different persons who are in the market.
Mr. Serjeant Best. This is a printed paper?
A. Yes.
Mr. Gurney. It is printed under your directions, I believe?
A. Yes.
Q. Is your original paper destroyed?
A. It is.
Q. Is this paper a copy from that of yours?
A. Yes.
Mr. Serjeant Best. Did you ever compare this with the paper on which you took down the prices?
A. Yes.
Q. Where do you get the contents of your written paper?
A. From the gentlemen in the Stock Exchange.
Mr. Serjeant Best. I submit that this paper cannot be evidence. The Witness states that he collects from the gentlemen in the Stock Exchange, the prices at which they buy and sell, from time to time, in the course of the day; he says he compares this printed paper with the original written paper; I am not objecting to that, but I submit, the written paper itself could not be evidence.
Lord Ellenborough. It is all hearsay, but it is the only evidence we can have; it is the only evidence we have of the price of sales of any description. I do not receive it as the precise thing, but as what is in the ordinary transactions of mankind received as proper information, and I suppose there is hardly a gentleman living who would not act on this paper.
Mr. Gurney. At what price did Omnium leave off on Saturday the 19th of February?
A. 26-3/4.
Lord Ellenborough. Do you furnish the Bank with these papers?
A. Yes.
Mr. Gurney. Was that 26-3/4 the money price or the time price?
A. The money price.
Q. The time price, I believe, is about one per cent. higher?
A. In general.
Q. At what price did Omnium commence on the Monday following?
A. 26-1/2.
Q. That is the money price?
A. The money price.
Q. Therefore the time price was 27-1/2?
A. I did not take the time price.
Q. After this news arrived what did it get up to?
A. As high as 30-1/4.
Q. At what time was that?
A. That is impossible for me to say.
Q. How soon did it get up to 30-1/4?
A. I cannot say; it did rise to that by degrees.
Q. Did it stand at that, or rise or fall?
A. It fell by degrees to 30, and from that to 28.
Lord Ellenborough. So that the rumour had a continuing effect to the close of the day?
A. Yes.
Mr. Gurney. Did it fall back so low by one and a half as it began in the morning?
A. No.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Pell.
Q. Do you remember at what time in the course of the day the report came to the Stock Exchange, of a chaise coming through the city?
A. I cannot say at what time it was.
Q. Then perhaps you cannot tell whether or not the Stocks rose again upon any report of that kind arriving there?
A. According to my recollection the Stocks rose a second time; they rose at first, then they fell, and then they rose again.
Q. But you cannot tell at what time that was, or to what cause it was attributable?
A. It was attributable to a chaise arriving.
Q. You remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. See whether you cannot remember how long it was after the opening of the business of the day that they so rose; might it be three hours afterwards?
A. It was in less than three hours, I think.
Q. It was less than three hours that they rose the second time you mean?
A. Yes; the second time.
Q. Have you a distinct recollection of this. Though you cannot remember the precise point of time at which it took place, have you distinct recollection that they rose at first, then fell, and then rose again.
A. Yes; I have a perfect recollection of that, but I cannot tell the time.
Cross-examined by Mr. Park.
Q. How often in the course of the day do you take that account?
A. Not at any particular stated times.
Q. You have nothing to do with buying or selling stock, I presume.
A. Not on my own account.
Q. But you are a Stock Broker?
A. I am.
Q. Then when you are not otherwise employed you fill up that paper from time to time?
A. No; if I perceive there are any particular fluctuations, I then make it my business to collect the prices.
Q. Do you mean to represent that the Stocks had not risen from what they ended at on Saturday before any news came to the Stock Exchange; had not they risen considerably that morning?
A. I think not, because if I recollect, there were reports in the morning that news had arrived.
Q. We have heard from some gentlemen that they sold stock as soon as the Stock Exchange opened; now I ask whether stock had not been sold at a rise before the news arrived?
A. Yes.
Mr. Gurney. But you say before the market opened there were some reports of a Messenger having arrived?
A. Yes.
Mr. Charles Addis, sworn.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Have you a house in Shorter's-court?
A. No, I have not; I am concerned for a gentleman who has some property there.
Q. You have the letting of a house for a gentleman there?
A. I have.
Q. Was any application made to you in the week prior to the 21st of February for any part of that house?
A. Yes, on the 15th or 16th, I think Mr. Cochrane Johnstone applied to me for an Office in a house, the letting of which was under my management.
Q. What number in Shorter's-court did he finally fix upon?
A. It is number 5, the house almost immediately adjoining the Stock Exchange.
Q. Did he on that day take any part of the house of you?
A. He took one room for an office in that house on that day.
Q. The house in which Mr. Fearn is now?
A. Yes.
Q. How soon did he take any more?
A. He called on the following day and engaged another office.
Q. That was the 16th then?
A. I believe it was the 16th, I will not be positive, and he called on the following day the 17th, being the third time.
Q. Did he, when he called on the 17th, write that letter in your office (handing it to the Witness.)
A. This is a letter he left in my absence in the office, on which day I cannot say, but this was a letter that he left for me.
Q. That was on the third day after he had engaged the three offices?
A. Yes.
Q. He had then engaged all three?
A. Yes.
Q. Are they three rooms in the same house?
A. Three rooms in the same house.
Q. (To Mr. Fearn) Is that letter Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand writing? (handing it to the Witness.)
A. I believe it is.
It was delivered in, and read as follows:—
"Sir,—I called again upon you to know if you have Powers to sell the house, part of which I have taken, as I find there are several persons in the house at present, which is rather awkward, and makes it too public.
"If you have powers to sell I will immediately treat with you; have the goodness therefore to leave the terms with your clerk, or send them to me at No. 18, Great Cumberland-street. I will however call again this day before I return to the West end of the town.
I am, Sir, Your obedient Servant, (Signed) A. COCHRANE JOHNSTONE."
(Addressed) Mr. Addis.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q. I believe he took the first room for Mr. Butt expressly?
A. Yes; and gave me a reference to him at Mr. Fearn's, who then lived in Cornhill.
Q. And the next time he came he said he wanted it for Mr. Fearn?
A. No; he said then he wanted it for Mr. Butt.
Q. And the third time he said he wanted it for Mr. Fearn?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Fearn has now the whole.
A. Yes.
Mr. James Pilliner, sworn.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Are you a Stock Broker?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to the 21st of February had you made any purchases for the Defendant Holloway, in Stock or Omnium?
A. I had, in both.
Q. How much of either was he possessed of before business began on Monday the 21st of February?
A. L20,000 Omnium and L20,000 Consols.
Q. Did you sell that out on that Monday?
A. I sold L20,000 Omnium and L14,000 Consols.
Mr. Serjeant Pell. Does your Lordship think, in consequence of what you have suggested already, that the Witness is bound to answer to the nature of the stock?
Lord Ellenborough. I am not apprized whether it is a real sum or not at present.
Mr. Serjeant Pell. The reason I now interpose is, that if this should turn out to be a transaction which was not real, the Witness would not be bound to answer any question respecting it, because it may tend to criminate himself, and involve him in penalties. The mere circumstance of his having sold stock at all that day, supposing it not real stock, would warrant him in declining to answer these questions.
Lord Ellenborough. Whether he sold any thing is a link in the chain, or else you might exclude all the transactions of the day, because they might ultimately connect with the vicious sale.
Mr. Serjeant Pell. Suppose it should turn out to be a time bargain, these questions would be material to convict this person of an offence, the amount sold would be very material; therefore if he is not bound to answer the last question——
Lord Ellenborough. I do not prohibit him; I am only to tell him that if these are bargains which are against law, he is bound to know the law, and if it would involve him in any penalty he need not answer the question.
Mr. Serjeant Pell. All I would request then is, that your Lordship would now suggest to the Witness that he need not answer any question that will tend to criminate himself.
Lord Ellenborough. If it will convict you in penalties, you are not bound to answer any question.
Mr. Serjeant Pell. I was only taking the liberty to suggest that that admonition may be given in the early part of the examination.
Lord Ellenborough. I cannot tell a witness he is not bound to answer a question, until I see that it has some bearing and probable tendency to accuse him; otherwise I must rummage all the statute books for penalties to put the witnesses on their guard—I must not only carry all the penal laws in my head, but mention them to every witness who comes before me upon any subject.
Mr. Gurney. Did you see Mr. Holloway on the morning of the 21st?
A. Yes I did.
Q. Did he give you any directions?
A. I beg to decline answering that question.
Mr. Gurney. I submit to your Lordship he is not at liberty to decline answering that question.
Lord Ellenborough. You may answer that question. Did he give you any directions?
A. He did.
Mr. Gurney. What to do?
A. I must beg to decline answering that question.
Lord Ellenborough. You need not answer to what you did; but you must state what he proposed to you to do, unless you did it afterwards, and the having done it would involve you in a penalty.
Mr. Gurney. What did he give you directions to do?
A. To sell stock.
Q. Was it to sell all he had, or part of what he had?
A. To sell all.
Q. At what time on Monday was it?
A. About the middle of the day.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Pell.
Q. What is Mr. Holloway?
A. A wine merchant.
Q. Where does he live?
A. In Martin's-lane, Cannon-street.
Q. Have you known him any time?
A. I have known him upwards of twenty years.
Q. How long have you acted for him as his broker?
A. Perhaps two years.
Mr. James Steers sworn.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Are you Stock Broker to the Accountant General of the Court of Chancery?
A. I am.
Q. Did you as broker to the Accountant General, make purchases on Monday the 21st February?
A. I did.
Q. At what prices?
A. I made purchases to the amount of L15,957:10:8, at 71-5/8 per cent.
Q. Consols I suppose?
A. Yes, I have got them down in various sums.
Q. Was that the high price of the day, or the price at which stock opened in the morning?
A. I got to my office I think about eleven o'clock, or a little before, I took the orders from the Accountant General's office.
Q. At what time did you begin making your purchases?
A. I think from eleven to a quarter after eleven.
Q. Had the news then considerably raised the Stocks?
A. It had.
Lord Ellenborough. Is that all you did that day?
A. That is all I did that day.
Mr. Gurney. Did you do business for any body besides the Accountant General on that day?
A. I cannot speak to any thing but what I did for the Accountant General.
Lord Ellenborough. Though you cannot speak to any thing else in precise sums, do you recollect that you did buy for any body else on that day besides the Accountant General?
Q. I can speak to an entry on my books on that day, but I cannot say whether I did the business myself. I do not recollect doing any thing else myself besides that bargain.
A Juryman. At what price could you have bought that lot of Consols on Saturday?
A. I can state the purchases I made on Saturday to the Court; I purchased on Saturday the 19th for the Accountant General L6894:11:4 at 70 per Cent.
Mr. Gurney. I have called for Lord Cochrane's Affidavit, it is admitted by my learned friends that notice has been given to produce it, and it is not produced.
Mr. John Wright sworn.
Examined by Mr. Adolphus.
Q. Where do you live?
A. At No. 5, Panton-square.
Q. Do you know where Lord Cochrane lives?
A. At No. 13, Green-street, Grosvenor-square.
Q. Had you occasion to see Lord Cochrane in February or March last?
A. Almost every day in February and in March last.
Q. In the course of that time did he deliver in a paper to you?
A. Yes he did.
Q. What was it?
A. He delivered several papers to me.
Q. What was done with that? (shewing a paper to the witness.)
A. Lord Cochrane brought me that affidavit for the purpose of getting it inserted in the newspapers.
Q. Did you do so?
A. I did, I got it printed in slips, and distributed a copy of it to each of the newspapers.
Q. Have you a copy of it?
A. I have not.
Q. Have you one of the slips?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Did you receive any other copies of affidavits purporting to be affidavits of persons of the name of Smith?
A. No, I had no concern whatever with Smith.
Q. Smith and his wife?
A. Certainly not, I know nothing of the printing of them.
Q. Was the Morning Chronicle one of the papers in which you put Lord Cochrane's affidavit?
A. Yes, it was.
Mr. Park. It must not be said to be Lord Cochrane's affidavit, till that is proved.
Lord Ellenborough. He printed something purporting to be Lord Cochrane's affidavit. I have taken it that Lord Cochrane delivered several papers, one purporting to be an affidavit which this witness inserted in the newspapers.
Mr. Park. But when once the expression is used by my learned friend, persons do not get rid of it again.
Lord Ellenborough. If he published it as an affidavit, it is quoad him an affidavit.
Mr. Park. To be sure, my Lord.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q. You have said that he brought this paper to you, giving you directions to have it printed?
A. He wished it to be inserted in the newspapers.
Q. Tell us all that he said to you at the time; did he not at the time when he was giving you directions to print it, say, that if De Berenger was the man, he had given the Stock Exchange the clue to it?
A. After reading the affidavit, his Lordship said "I once saw Captain De Berenger at dinner."
Lord Ellenborough. Was this at the time?
A. Yes; he said "I once saw Captain De Berenger at Mr. Basil Cochrane's—I have no reason to think that Captain De Berenger is capable of so base a transaction, but if he is, I have given the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange the best clue to find him out."
Lord Ellenborough. Did he say what sort of clue he had given?
A. The clue as to De Berenger.
Mr. Gurney. By his affidavit?
A. Yes, that by that he had given them the best clue.
Re-examined by Mr. Adolphus.
Q. When was it this affidavit was given to you?
A. I cannot state the day.
Q. Was it so late as March?
A. No, it must be about the 27th or 28th of February I think, but the newspaper will prove the date; it might be the first or second of March, I cannot speak to that.
Q. Was it not after the 11th of March?
A. I cannot state indeed.
Q. It was given to you the day before it appeared in the Morning Chronicle?
A. It was the day before, about three o'clock.
Mr. Gurney. Look at that (shewing a pamphlet to the witness) have you received one of those pamphlets either from Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, Lord Cochrane, or Mr. Butt?
A. Lord Cochrane gave me one of those at my own request, hearing it was published.
Q. Look at that which purports to be an affidavit of Lord Cochrane.
Mr. Serjeant Best. Is that the identical book Lord Cochrane gave you?
A. No.
Mr. Gurney. Read the affidavit and tell me whether you know that to be verbally and precisely the same?
Mr. Serjeant Best. I submit to your Lordship that will not do.
Mr. Gurney. Where is your copy of the pamphlet?
A. It is at home.
Mr. Gurney. Will your Lordship allow him to go home and fetch it.
Lord Ellenborough. Certainly.
Mr. Malcolm Richardson called again.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. You are a bookseller?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you employed by Mr. Butt to publish that pamphlet?
A. Not absolutely employed by him to publish it, but I sold it for him at his request, he wrote to me to know whether I would sell it for him.
Lord Ellenborough. This should be a publication by Lord Cochrane, to make the affidavit evidence against him.
Mr. Gurney. Certainly, my Lord, and if my learned friends wish it, I will wait till the witness comes back.
Mr. Serjeant Best. I have no wish to lay any impediment in the way, therefore if your Lordship thinks there is no impropriety in my permitting it to be read now, I will do it?
Lord Ellenborough. I leave it to your judgment, whether your resistance does you more good than the admission.
Mr. Serjeant Best. I will not resist it certainly. If I had the original I would deliver it up in a moment, but the fact is, we have not the original.
The Affidavit was read as follows:
"Having obtained leave of absence to come to town, in consequence of scandalous paragraphs in the public papers, and in consequence of having learnt that hand-bills had been affixed in the streets, in which (I have since seen) it is asserted that a person came to my house, at No. 13, Green-street, on the 21st day of February, in open day, and in the dress in which he had committed a fraud; I feel it due to myself to make the following deposition that the public may know the truth relative to the only person seen by me in military uniform, at my house, on that day.
COCHRANE."
March 11, 1814. 13, Green-street.
"I, Sir Thomas Cochrane, commonly called Lord Cochrane, having been appointed by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, to active service (at the request, I believe, of Sir Alexander Cochrane) when I had no expectation of being called on, I obtained leave of absence to settle my private affairs previous to quitting this country, and chiefly with a view to lodge a specification to a patent relative to a discovery for increasing the intensity of light. That in pursuance of my daily practice of superintending work that was executing for me, and knowing that my uncle, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, went to the city every morning in a coach.
I do swear, on the morning of the 21st of February (which day was impressed on my mind by circumstances which afterwards occurred) I breakfasted with him at his residence in Cumberland-street, about half past eight o'clock, and I was put down by him (and Mr. Butt was in the coach) on Snow-hill, about ten o'clock; that I had been about three quarters of an hour at Mr. King's manufactory, at No. 1, Cock-lane, when I received a few lines on a small bit of paper, requesting me to come immediately to my house; the name affixed, from being written close to the bottom, I could not read. The servant told me it was from an army officer, and concluding that he might be an officer from Spain, and that some accident had befallen to my brother; I hastened back, and I found Captain Berenger, who, in great seeming uneasiness, made many apologies for the freedom he had used, which nothing but the distressed state of his mind, arising from difficulties, could have induced him to do. All his prospects, he said, had failed, and his last hope had vanished, of obtaining an appointment in America. He was unpleasantly circumstanced, on account of a sum which he could not pay, and if he could, that others would fall upon him for full L8000. He had no hope of benefiting his creditors in his present situation, or of assisting himself. That if I would take him with me he would immediately go on board and exercise the sharp-shooters, (which plan Sir Alexander Cochrane, I knew, had approved of.) That he had left his lodgings and prepared himself in the best way his means allowed. He had brought the sword with him which had been his fathers, and to that, and to Sir Alexander, he would trust for obtaining an honourable appointment. I felt very uneasy at the distress he was in, and knowing him to be a man of great talent and science, I told him I would do every thing in my power to relieve him; but as to his going immediately to the Tonnant, with any comfort to himself, it was quite impossible, my cabin was without furniture, I had not even a servant on board. He said he would willingly mess any where. I told him that the ward-room was already crowded, and besides I could not with propriety take him, he being a foreigner, without leave from the Admiralty. He seemed greatly hurt at this, and recalled to my recollection certificates which he had formerly shewn me, from persons in official situations. Lord Yarmouth, General Jenkinson, and Mr. Reeves, I think, were amongst the number. I recommended him to use his endeavour to get them, or any other friends, to exert their influence, for I had none, adding that when the Tonnant went to Portsmouth, I should be happy to receive him; and I knew from Sir Alexander Cochrane, that he would be pleased if he accomplished that object. Captain Berenger said, that not anticipating any objection on my part from the conversation he had formerly had with me, he had come away with intention to go on board and make himself useful in his military capacity;—he could not go to Lord Yarmouth, or to any other of his friends, in this dress, (alluding to that which he had on) or return to his lodgings where it would excite suspicion (as he was at that time in the rules of the King's Bench) but that if I refused to let him join the ship now, he would do so at Portsmouth. Under present circumstances, however, he must use a great liberty, and request the favour of me to lend him a hat to wear instead of his military cap. I gave him one which was in a back room with some things that had not been packed up, and having tried it on, his uniform appeared under his great coat; I therefore offered him a black coat that was laying on a chair, and which I did not intend to take with me. He put up his uniform in a towel, and shortly afterwards went away in great apparent uneasiness of mind; and having asked my leave, he took the coach I came in, and which I had forgotten to discharge in the haste I was in. I do further depose, that the above conversation is the substance of all that passed with Captain Berenger, which, from the circumstances attending it, was strongly impressed upon my mind, that no other person in uniform was seen by me, at my house, on Monday the 21st of February, though possibly other officers may have called (as many have done since my appointment;) of this, however, I cannot speak of my own knowledge, having been almost constantly from home, arranging my private affairs. I have understood that many persons have called under the above circumstances, and have written notes in the parlour, and others have waited there in expectation of seeing me, and then gone away, but I most positively swear that I never saw any person at my house resembling the description, and in the dress stated in the printed advertisement of the members of the Stock Exchange. I further aver that I had no concern, directly or indirectly, in the late imposition, and that the above is all that I know relative to any person who came to my house in uniform on the 21st day of February, before alluded to. Captain Berenger wore a grey great coat, a green uniform and a military cap. From the manner in which my character has been attempted to be defamed, it is indispensibly necessary to state that my connexion in any way with the funds, arose from an impression that in the present favourable aspect of affairs, it was only necessary to hold stock in order to become a gainer without prejudice to anybody; that I did so openly, considering it in no degree improper, far less dishonorable; that I had no secret information of any kind, and that had my expectation of the success of affairs been disappointed, I should have been the only sufferer. Further, I do most solemnly swear that the whole of the Omnium on account, which I possessed on the 21st day of February, 1814, amounted to L139,000 which I bought by Mr. Fearn (I think) on the 12th ultimo at a premium of 28-1/4, that I did not hold on that day any other sum on account in any other stock directly or indirectly, and that I had given orders when it was bought to dispose of it on a rise of one per cent, and it actually was sold on an average at 29-1/2 premium, though on the day of the fraud it might have been disposed of at 33-1/2. I further swear, that the above is the only stock which I sold of any kind on the 21st day of February, except L2000 in money which I had occasion for, the profit of which was about L10. Further, I do solemnly depose, that I had no connexion of dealing with any one, save the above mentioned, and that I did not at any time, directly or indirectly, by myself or by any other, take or procure any office or apartment for any broker or other person for the transaction of stock affairs."
"COCHRANE."
Mr. James Le Marchant sworn.
Examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q. Are you acquainted with Captain De Berenger?
A. I was so.
Q. When did your acquaintance with him commence?
A. About 18 months ago.
Q. How long did it continue?
A. It continued until the 16th of February to the best of my knowledge.
Q. Between those periods was Captain De Berenger in the habit of calling upon you frequently?
A. He was, from the 10th to the 16th of February.
Q. At what period of the day?
A. At different periods.
Q. Did he pass his evenings with you?
A. Occasionally.
Q. In conversations with him, did you ever collect from him, whether he had any connexion with Lord Cochrane or Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. I did—with both.
Q. State to the Court what he has told you.
A. He stated that he was about to go to America under the command of Lord Cochrane; on his mentioning this, I put the question to him, how he possibly could do it under the embarrassments that he laid under, upon which he answered, all was settled on that score.
Q. Do you recollect upon what day this conversation passed?
A. I should think nearly about the 14th, to the best of my recollection, he said, that for the services he had rendered Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, whereby his Lordship could realize a large sum or large sums of money by means of the funds or stocks, one of the words, that his Lordship was his friend, and had told him a few days before, that he had kept unknown to him till that period, a private purse for him De Berenger.
Q. Did he state to you whether there was any particular intimacy between him and Lord Cochrane, or Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. He frequently mentioned particular intimacy of dining, breakfasting and supping with his Lordship. He said, in which purse he had placed or deposited a certain per centage out of the profits which his Lordship had made by his stock suggestions.
Q. Did you afterwards hear of the events of the 21st of February?
A. I did so.
Q. Did you upon that make known to any parties, and to whom, your suspicions of Captain De Berenger having been active in them?
A. I did so.
Q. To whom were those communications made?
A. To Captain Taylor of His Majesty's 22nd regiment of foot, and Lieutenant Wright in the Honorable East India Company's Service.
Q. Did you collect in any conversations you had with Captain De Berenger, that Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone consulted him in any transactions of Stock?
Mr. Park. That is a pretty good leading question.
Mr. Bolland. Did he state to you any thing respecting their consulting him as to stock transactions?
A. Most undoubtedly, or I should not have drawn the conclusions I did.
Q. For what was he to have a per centage?
A. For the ideas he had given to Lord Cochrane, enabling him to make a profit in the stocks.
Q. Did he extend that to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, or Lord Cochrane?
A. To both.
Mr. Serjeant Best. I am aware that your Lordship will not consider this as evidence against Lord Cochrane, or Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
Lord Ellenborough. No; it is admissible evidence, the effect of it is another thing.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q. You have been corresponding with my Lord Cochrane.
A. I have so.
Q. You are now a prisoner in the King's Bench, I believe?
A. No; I am not.
Q. You have told my Lord Cochrane?——
Mr. Bolland. Have you ever had any communication with Lord Cochrane but in writing?
A. None individually.
Mr. Bolland. Then I object to any questions except as to letters.
Mr. Serjeant Best. You are a gentleman whose appointment Government have stopped?
A. It is not stopped.
Q. Suspended?
A. It is not suspended.
Q. You mean to state that upon your oath?
A. I state that I hold the situation of Secretary and Register to the Court of Antigua and Montserrat.
Q. You have not been prevented from going out?
A. In consequence of being compelled to give my evidence either at this court or some other court.
Q. And not on any other account?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You know of no other reasons why Government have prevented your going out, but that you may be kept here as a Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean to state that broadly?
A. Precisely.
Q. Is that your hand writing? (shewing a letter to the Witness)
A. It is.
Q. Just look at these; are these your hand writing? (shewing other letters to the Witness.)
A. That is not.
Q. That is Lord Cochrane's hand writing, is it not, you have got one in your pocket that is a copy of one that Lord Cochrane wrote to you in answer to one of your letters?
A. I will look at it. (the Witness read the letter over.) This is precisely the same as one I have in my pocket.
Q. You have got that letter about you?
A. I have.
Q. Have you not proposed to my Lord Cochrane to lend you money, and have you not told his Lordship that if he would not——
Mr. Bolland. My Lord, he says he has had no communication but in writing.
A. I have had no communication with Lord Cochrane but in writing.
Mr. Serjeant Best. Would you have given this evidence if you could have obtained a loan of money from Lord Cochrane?
A. Most undoubtedly; I must have been compelled to do it upon oath if brought forwards in a court of justice.
Q. I will not have a reasoning answer, but a direct answer, and that answer I will have taken down. Would you have given this evidence here if you could have obtained a loan of money from Lord Cochrane?
A. If my Lord Cochrane had not called me forwards, of course I should not have given an evidence, but he has compelled me.
Q. That will not do, I will put the question again; I want an answer, yes, or no, to this; would you have given this evidence if you could have obtained a loan of money from Lord Cochrane?
A. I hardly consider that question as fair; if his Lordship says it is I will answer it.
Lord Ellenborough. I rather think the terms of the question embrace some communications; he says he has had no communications about a loan in any way but in writing, and I think you cannot in that way travel indirectly to the contents of a letter; if the letter says any thing about a loan of money, you may give it in evidence.
Mr. Serjeant Best. Will your Lordship allow me to put it in this way. I have no right to ask the contents of any letter but with humble deference to your Lordship; I have a right to ask this man what passed in his own mind, for it does not yet appear that he put it upon paper; if the question had been what have you written to Lord Cochrane? that would have been objectionable, but surely I have a right to ask him what is passing in his own mind upon the subject, to know the motives from which this gentleman, of whom I shall speak by and by, comes to speak.
Lord Ellenborough. Do you give your evidence from resentment in consequence of having some loan refused to you?
A. None individually—none whatever.
Mr. Bolland. My Lord, I must object to my learned friend Mr. Serjeant Best getting the effect of a correspondence which was in writing.
Lord Ellenborough. He does not refer to it, but one cannot but be conscious after what has passed, that all that has ever passed about a loan has been in writing, therefore it would be the most ingenuous course to put it in.
Serjeant Best. I certainly mean to read this man's letters.
Lord Ellenborough. I asked him in the strongest manner possible, do you now give your evidence in resentment for having a loan, or any other benefit withheld from you? You may press that if you please.
Mr. Serjeant Best. I will put it in the way your Lordship suggests. Do you not now give your evidence in consequence of your being angry with Lord Cochrane for refusing to lend you money?
A. No. So help me God.
Q. Now take care. Do you know a gentlemen of the name of Palfreyman?
A. I have met him twice, I think, within this fortnight past.
Q. You have no resentment against Lord Cochrane whatever I understand you?
A. None whatever.
Q. You have never so expressed yourself to Mr. Palfreyman?
A. I am persuaded I never have.
Q. You never have told Mr. Palfreyman then that you would be his ruin?
A. Never.
Q. Nothing like that?
A. Never.
Q. That you would assist the Stock Exchange?
A. Never.
Q. Nothing of the sort?
A. I have already answered you.
Q. That will not do. Where did you come from now?
A. I came from the Gloucester Coffee House.
Q. I should have thought you had been in a coffee house, it is after dinner time I suppose. You are sure you never said any thing of the kind?
A. I have repeated it three or four times.
Q. You know this gentleman very well, Mr. Palfreyman?
A. A very slight acquaintance.
Q. Now I ask you another thing—Did you ever disclose this conversation with Mr. De Berenger till after Lord Cochrane refused you a loan?
Lord Ellenborough. If any application you made for a loan was in writing, you are not bound to answer that question.
Mr. Serjeant Best. My question was as to the time of the disclosure to the Stock Exchange, I will certainly read his letters; this does not touch me, but my learned friends of Counsel for De Berenger had not seen these letters. My question is, whether you ever disclosed the matter you have stated to day against De Berenger till after you were refused a loan by Lord Cochrane?
Lord Ellenborough. But if the proposition for loan was in writing, the letter must explain itself.
Mr. Scarlett. If we are not allowed to examine this witness as to his motives and his conduct as to these letters, I do not see how these letters could ever be made evidence.
Lord Ellenborough. You cannot examine him as to his motives, without producing the letters, that would be extracting the most unfair testimony in the world; I know nothing about the man, I never saw his face before to-day; but he, as a witness, has a right to the common protection of the law of the land, and not to have garbled questions put to him.
Mr. Scarlett. We do mean to read the letters.
Lord Ellenborough. And then you may call him back to ask him any questions upon them; but I would not have him answer without the letters being read.
Mr. Brougham. My learned friend merely referred to the letters as a date, not to the substance of the letters.
Lord Ellenborough. But he has said that he never had any communication with Lord Cochrane, but by letter, therefore the request for a loan, if any one was made, must have been by writing, and if he is to be questioned about that request in writing, he ought to have the terms of that request in writing read before the jury, so as to give a pointed answer to it.
Mr. Brougham. With great submission, my learned friend, did not ask as to the contents of the correspondence, but in point of date and time merely; he put this question, Was your information given to the Stock Exchange previously or subsequently to that correspondence, whatever the contents of that correspondence were?
Lord Ellenborough. I never heard that question put till this moment. Previous to some supposed correspondence, without stating the nature of that correspondence, was the information given by you to the Stock Exchange?
A. No, it was given by Lord Cochrane in his publication of the correspondence in the Morning Chronicle.
Lord Ellenborough. We cannot get on without the letters.
Mr. Serjeant Best. I have no objection to the letters being read now.
Lord Ellenborough. That would disturb the order of the proceedings.
Cross examined by Mr. Richardson.
Q. The conversation with Mr. De Berenger was about the 14th of February?
A. Yes it was.
Q. Have you not reason to know that about that time he had expectations of getting some employment in America?
A. He mentioned it to me himself.
Q. To serve under Sir Alexander Cochrane who had a command?
A. To serve under Lord Cochrane as I understood.
Q. He expressed his anxious desire and wish to be so employed?
A. Particularly so.
Q. He expressed a hope that he might make himself useful to the cause, by drilling the sharp shooters, and other things of that sort?
A. That was what he represented.
Q. Did you not know that he had had experience as a volunteer officer in a particular department?
A. I had a very high opinion of him as being acquainted with that science.
Q. He had been a Captain for a considerable number of years in the Duke of Cumberland's Corps of Sharp Shooters?
A. Adjutant I understand.
Q. You considered him as a man of science and skill in that department?
A. I did.
Q. Do you not know that he was making preparations at that time in order to go to America if he should be successful in procuring the appointment he was soliciting?
A. Not making preparations, those I know nothing of.
Q. That it was his anxious wish and desire to go you heard from him?
A. Yes.
Re-examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q. Did the Stock Exchange apply to you, or did you go to them to give information.
A. The Stock Exchange applied to me and sent me a subpoena.
Q. Was the application made to you after Lord Cochrane's publication, or before?
A. After Lord Cochrane's publication. The information that I gave to the two gentlemen, Captain Taylor and Lieutenant Wright was prior to Lord Cochrane's affidavit, or its ever being mentioned in my hearing that Mr. De Berenger was implicated in this business.
The Honorable Alexander Murray sworn.
Examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q. You are in His Majesty's service as an officer?
A. Not at present.
Q. I believe you have the misfortune at present to be in the King's Bench.
A. I am.
Q. In the rules?
A. In the inside.
Q. Are you acquainted with Captain De Berenger, and how long have you been so.
A. About a year and a half I have been.
Q. Who introduced you to Captain De Berenger?
A. Mr. Tahourdin, who was my solicitor, and likewise the solicitor of Mr. De Berenger.
Q. In consequence of that introduction did a considerable intimacy take place between you and the captain?
A. There did.
Q. Were you frequently together?
A. Very frequently; when I first went over to the rules of the Bench, I lodged with Mr. De Berenger in the same house for about one month, till I took a house of my own.
Q. Had you at any time any conversation with Captain De Berenger previous to the 21st of February with respect to Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. Towards the end of January I think, or perhaps the beginning of February.
Q. What was the substance of these conversations?
A. It happened one Sunday between one and two o'clock, Mr. Harrison called upon me, and we were conversing about a pamphlet he was writing.
Q. That Mr. Harrison was writing?
A. Yes; it was relative to the trial between Mr. Basil Cochrane and Mr. Harrison.
Q. That impressed the day upon your recollection?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Captain De Berenger come in that day?
A. Yes; he came in during the conversation and joined in it.
Q. Did any thing pass from Captain De Berenger on that day respecting Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane?
A. I at that time knew he was employed by Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
Q. From whom did you understand that?
A. From Mr. De Berenger himself, that he was employed by Mr. Cochrane Johnstone in planning out a small piece of ground behind his house in Alsop's Buildings.
Q. What passed at that time about Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. He mentioned that there was a transaction going on.
Q. Does the circumstance of the pamphlet bring back to your recollection what Sunday it was?
A. I cannot state the day of the month, but it was towards the end of January or the beginning of February.
Q. State what Mr. De Berenger then said?
A. He said that they had a plan in view——
A. Who had?
A. That De Berenger had, with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane, that provided it succeeded, it would put many thousand pounds in the pocket of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane.
Q. Upon hearing this, did either you or Mr. Harrison ask Captain De Berenger what the plan was?
A. I did, and he declined answering it; I said, "is it the plan with regard to Ranelagh which it was proposed to build in Alsop's Buildings, on Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's land," and he said "no, it is not, it is a far better plan."
Q. Did you collect from Mr. De Berenger's conversation with you, whether there was any particular intimacy between him and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane?
A. I knew there was a very particular intimacy between him and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, but I did not understand it was with Lord Cochrane at all; I understood he was a more recent acquaintance.
Q. From what did you collect that; what did Mr. De Berenger say to you that induced you to believe he was intimate with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. He was constantly with him; he was there almost every day.
Q. You say that his acquaintance with Lord Cochrane was recent?
A. I do.
Q. When you understood him to be acquainted with Lord Cochrane, did he state any thing with regard to his visits to Lord Cochrane?
A. He did not.
Cross-examined by Mr. Park.
Q. You have known Mr. De Berenger a great while?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. He is a man of very considerable science and attainment I am told?
A. Very much so.
Q. I believe you happen to know that he was at that time, or had been about that time engaged in some plan of Mr. Johnstone's about building a place called Vittoria, in consequence of the great victories?
A. It was to be called Ranelagh I understood, I never heard of the name Vittoria.
Q. He had been engaged for a considerable time before in drawing a plan?
A. He had, which I had seen.
Q. And that led him, as you understood, to be very much with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. It did.
Q. Alsop's Buildings is somewhere near Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's house?
A. Mr. Cochrane Johnstone has a house there, and this is the ground immediately behind it, about an acre, which is in garden ground, and which was to be converted to that use.
Q. Something upon the plan of the old Ranelagh?
A. Something upon an improved plan of Mr. De Berenger's.
Q. You have seen the plan you say, which Mr. De Berenger drew for Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
A. Yes.
Q. How long ago is that?
A. I cannot exactly say how long ago it was.
Q. Was it before this conversation a good while?
A. Before this conversation; when I was in the habit of calling upon him.
Q. About the close of the last year probably?
A. About that time, I cannot exactly say.
Q. Was it not a very beautiful plan that he had drawn for this Ranelagh?
A. It was.
Q. It required, from the nature of it, a considerable deal of time and labour?
A. It did certainly.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. De Berenger was very much employed in plans of that kind for the Royal Family and others?
A. He was.
Lord Ellenborough. If you see any tendency to the advantage of your client, I will not interrupt you, but at present this seems to have no bearing.
Mr. Park. I assure your Lordship, and I know I shall have credit for believing what I state, I would not at this hour of the night pursue it if it was not important, but I feel it necessary when it is stated that there has been a wonderful intimacy, from which, conspiracy is sought to be inferred.
Lord Ellenborough. I will not ask you to go into your reasons, if you only say you think it material.
Mr. Park. As far as you have seen Mr. De Berenger, for the length of time you have described, do you not believe him to be a man of honor and integrity?
A. I certainly do from every thing I have seen; I saw nothing but the most perfect gentleman during the time I lodged under the same roof.
William Carling sworn.
Examined by Mr. Adolphus.
Q. Whose servant are you?
A. The Honorable Basil Cochrane's.
Q. Are you in his service still?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and my Lord Cochrane visit at your master's house?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever seen them there in company with Captain De Berenger?
A. Yes; Baron De Berenger is the name I have given in.
Q. The gentleman who sits there now?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he come there once, or oftener, within your memory?
A. Twice.
Q. Who brought him?
A. I do not know that any body brought him in particular, he came to dine there as a visitor.
Q. With whom?
A. Not with any body in particular; invited by the Honorable Basil Cochrane.
Q. Was that upon days when Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane were there?
A. Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane dined there once; Lord Cochrane did not the second time?
Q. As far as you could observe, did Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone appear to be acquainted with the Baron De Berenger, or to be then first introduced to him?
A. They appeared to be acquainted with him.
Cross-examined by Mr. Topping.
Q. Can you tell us what time this was?
A. In January the first time, and the next in February, but I cannot say what day.
Q. You live with Mr. Basil Cochrane?
A. Yes.
Q. He is related to Lord Cochrane?
A. Yes, he is uncle to Lord Cochrane.
Q. And Mr. Basil Cochrane having a dinner party, Baron De Berenger was one of the party, and Lord Cochrane another?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Cochrane Johnstone another?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the dinner party consist of any other?
A. Yes, the first time, Admiral Cochrane (Sir Alexander), his lady, and some more ladies and gentlemen.
Q. Was that the day Lord Cochrane dined there?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Then upon another occasion, Mr. Basil Cochrane having a diner party, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone formed one of the party, and Baron De Berenger another?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there an indiscriminate mixture of ladies and gentlemen again then?
A. Yes.
Q. And Lord Cochrane was not there?
A. He was not.
Q. You have been asked whether Baron De Berenger and Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone appeared to be acquainted—did Baron De Berenger appear to be acquainted with Admiral Cochrane?
A. I cannot say.
Q. You were merely a servant attending at table?
A. Yes.
Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.
Q. From the conversation that passed, did you understand whether Baron De Berenger was going to America to serve under Admiral Cochrane.
A. I did not.
Mr. Barnard Broochooft sworn.
Examined by Mr. Bolland.
Q. You are Deputy Marshal of the King's Bench?
A. I am clerk to the Marshal of the King's Bench.
Q. Do you know Baron De Berenger?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he, during the latter end of the last year, and the beginning of the present, a prisoner in the King's Bench?
A. Yes.
Q. How long had he been confined there?
A. I think from the latter end of the year 1812.
Q. Till what time?
A. I am not prepared to state the day but till within about six weeks.
Q. Have you the book of rules here?
A. I have not.
Q. Did you miss him at any time?
A. Yes some months.
Mr. Park. I waive the objection to your asking your questions, so far as I am concerned for Mr. De Berenger.
Mr. Bolland. Who were the securities for Mr. De Berenger?
A. Mr. Cochrane, a bookseller, in Fleet-street, and Mr. Tahourdin, the attorney.
Q. You made search for him and could not find him?
A. Yes.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q. That Cochrane was not at all connected with the Dundonald family?
A. I asked the question, and I understood not.
Cross-examined by Mr. Park.
Q. Mr. Cochrane is partner in the house of Mr. White, of Fleet-street?
A. Yes.
Q. I believe you saw Mr. De Berenger on the morning of the 21st very early, did not you?
A. No.
Q. Recollect yourself, because I understand you did see him that morning?
A. I cannot recollect having seen Mr. De Berenger for a very great length of time, and I think long previous to that?
Q. I have reason to put the question, or I should not to you, not doubting the veracity of your answer; recollect whether you did not see him near the King's Bench Prison, very early on that morning?
A. I have nothing by which I can charge my recollection.
Q. The security was given a considerable time ago for the rules?
A. A very considerable time ago, nearly two years ago I should think.
Q. It was not for a very large sum?
A. Under L400. I think.
Q. You will excuse my asking, but the security is generally nearly commensurate with the debt?
A. They generally do take it for the amount as nearly as possible, calculating the costs.
Q. More than the debt then?
A. Yes.
Mr. Bolland. Was Mr. Ralph Sandom a prisoner in the King's Bench Prison?
A. Twice he has been a prisoner.
Q. Was he on the 21st of February?
A. I have not the books, and cannot state that.
Mr. Joseph Wood sworn.
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Are you a Messenger of the Alien Office?
A. I am.
Q. Did you on the 3d or 4th of April leave London in order to apprehend De Berenger?
A. I did on the 4th.
Q. Had you a warrant of the Secretary of State?
A. I had.
Q. How long had you had it in your possession?
A. Ever since the 17th of March.
Q. Where did you find him?
A. At Leith.
Q. On what day?
A. On the 8th of April.
Q. Did you find him in possession of any writing desk?
A. Of this one. (producing a portable desk).
Q. Did that writing desk contain papers and bank notes?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you parted with any of those papers or bank notes did you mark them?
A. Yes I did.
Q. When did you mark them?
A. I marked them before the Grand Jury the day of the bill being found.
Q. Have they been in your possession from the day you marked them?
A. They have from the hour I took Mr. De Berenger.
Q. Were there any pieces of coin in the writing desk also?
A. There were guineas and half guineas, and in the pocket book there were two Napoleons. (the witness opened the desk.)
Q. The bank notes are in parcels I believe?
A. Yes they are.
Q. Give me the packet with the 67.
They were handed in.
Mr. Gurney. I believe it will be more clear if I do not open them now till I have proved them?
A. Here are two packets, and a pocket book containing a fifty pound note and four five pound notes, the Napoleons are in the pocket book.
Q. There is a memorandum book also and a paper of memorandums?
A. There are.
The Witness delivered them in.
Q. There is a road book besides?
A. Yes there is.
Mr. Park. There are some papers of which I have heard no proof; there is a paper, in which it is stated there is some pencil mark, I have heard no proof of any pencil mark, or any writing; it is not evidence because it is in his pocket-book because one has many things in a pocket-book which are not in one's hand-writing.
Mr. Gurney. This is the writing.
Mr. Park. I shall not look at it; I do not know his hand-writing.
Mr. Gurney. Mr. Jones, I will trouble you to read the first article in that memorandum-book.
Mr. Park. That cannot be done.
Mr. Gurney. It is found in his letter-case.
Mr. Park. I object till his hand-writing is proved; the finding a manuscript in my possession, is not sufficient to warrant its being read as evidence against me; your Lordship might confide some paper to me, and it would be very hard to read that against me.
Lord Ellenborough. It is prima facie evidence I think, subject to any observations you make upon it.
Mr. Park. It is found in that thing, not in his pocket.
Lord Ellenborough. (to Wood) Was it under his lock?
A. It was in his possession when I took him.
Mr. Park. Am I to be answerable for all manner of things sent to me by my friends?
Lord Ellenborough. I think a paper found under the lock and key of the party, is prima facie, readable against him; it is subject to observations. If you do not go further, the reading this as found in his possession, is doing little.
Mr. Gurney. (to Mr. Lavie) Do you believe that to be Mr. De Berenger's writing?
A. I have no doubt about it.
Mr. Park. Is it in pencil or ink?
A. In ink.
Mr. Serjeant Best. That cannot be evidence against the Cochranes.
Lord Ellenborough. No, if it was transmitted by him in writing to the others, it would be evidence against them; but it purports to be only a memorandum of his own.
Mr. Gurney. Certainly not, my Lord.
The Extract was read as follows:
"To C. I. by March 1st 1814, L350—L4 to 5000—assign one share of patent and L1000 worth shares of Jn. De Beaufain at Messrs. H. to their care.—Believe from my informant L18,000 instead of L4800—suspicious that Mr. B. does not account correctly to him as well as me. Determined not to be duped. No restrictions as to secresy—requesting early answer."
Mr. Gurney. That is all I wish to read.
Mr. Park. I never heard a word of this.
Mr. Gurney. Very likely not.
Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.
Q. Did you carry this box of papers before the Grand Jury?
A. Yes I did, the writing desk.
Q. By whose orders was that done?
A. By orders of the Secretary of State, of Mr. Beckett; I was subpoenaed to bring it before the Grand Jury, and I carried the subpoena to take directions from Mr. Beckett the Under Secretary of State.
Q. You received Mr. Beckett's orders to do it?
A. With the subpoena I told Mr. Beckett I had received an order to take it before the Grand Jury, and I did so.
Mr. Park. There are no subpoenas for the Grand Jury.
Mr. Gurney. There are indeed, Crown Office subpoenas.
Mr. Richardson. By whose order were the seals put on at Edinburgh taken off?
A. By order of Mr. Beckett.
Q. That was before you went before the Grand Jury?
A. Yes.
Q. Has the box remained in your possession ever since you took it at Edinburgh?
A. Yes, ever since when I went a journey to Holland; in my absence Mr. Tahourdin wished to see it, and Mr. Musgrave opened it for him.
Q. Except the time you took a journey to Holland it has been in your possession?
A. Yes.
Q. Had the seals been opened before that time, before you went to Holland?
A. They had.
Q. In whose possession was it during the time of your absence?
A. Mr. Musgrave's, and he delivered it up to me again.
Q. Who is Mr. Musgrave?
A. One of the clerks in the Office.
Q. How long were you absent?
A. A week or ten days.
Q. Has it been in your possession ever since your return?
A. Yes, it has.
Q. Were you present all the time it was before the Grand Jury?
A. I was; I left it on the Grand Jury table when I went out, but I locked it, and I had the key.
Q. With all its contents locked up in it?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you present when Mr. Wakefield of the Stock Exchange, and Mr. Lavie called, I think on the very day that Mr. De Berenger arrived in London?
A. I was.
Q. Was that at your house?
A. No it was not.
Q. Where was it?
A. At the Parliament Street Coffee House.
Q. That was the place you carried him to first?
A. No, first to the Secretary of State's Office, and afterwards to the Parliament Street Coffee House.
Q. The day of your arrival those Gentlemen came there?
A. They were there.
Q. Mr. Wakefield and some other Gentleman?
A. Mr. Wakefield and another Gentleman.
Q. Who was the other Gentleman?
A. I do not exactly recollect.
Q. Was it not stated to him by those Gentlemen that they did not wish to press him if he would furnish information against Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, and Mr. Butt?
A. I do not recollect hearing those names mentioned.
Q. Against the other Gentlemen?
A. No, I do not recollect hearing that.
Q. Did they not state that what they wanted was information from him to fix the guilt upon others?
A. Not to my recollection.
Q. Or any thing to that effect?
A. I do not recollect any thing of the kind, I did not exactly listen to the conversation.
Q. He was in your custody, and you in the room all the time?
A. Not exactly; I was there the greatest part of the time.
Q. Be so kind as to recollect yourself, it was only in the month of April last that this happened, many circumstances have called this to your recollection since; what was the conversation that passed; what did they state to him as to his furnishing information?
A. There were some gentlemen wanted to speak to Mr. De Berenger; Mr. Wakefield went very close to Mr. De Berenger, and I declare to you upon my oath I do not recollect any particular words.
Q. The substance is all I want?
A. I really do not recollect the substance.
Q. Was any thing said as to his furnishing information: recollect, that you are to tell the whole truth upon your oath, as far as you recollect it; what was said upon that subject, as far as you can recollect?
A. Mr. Wakefield did say something to him, but I really do not recollect.
Q. Was it to that effect?
A. Mr. Wakefield put some questions to Mr. De Berenger respecting this business, the Stock Exchange business; but the exact conversation, which I did not listen to, I cannot say.
Q. Respecting the other persons supposed to be concerned, was not that the effect of it?
A. Something to that effect I think, but I did not listen to the conversation.
Lord Ellenborough. What is the effect? only something about other persons, that is no effect.
Mr. Richardson. What was the effect of it?
A. Mr. Wakefield put some questions respecting the Stock Exchange, I did not attend exactly to what it was.
Lord Ellenborough. You had better call Mr. Wakefield, who put the questions, than he who did not hear what passed.
Mr. Park. We cannot call Mr. Wakefield; he is one of the Prosecutors, he is one of the Stock Exchange.
Lord Ellenborough. I know nothing about Mr. Wakefield; as long as the question is sperate I am willing to hear it put, but it has been put ten times and the same answer returned.
Mr. Richardson. Did you hear names mentioned?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you hear them tell him, that their wish was that he should furnish information, to bring home the guilt to others?
A. I remember the word information, and that is all I recollect.
Q. That they wanted information?
A. That is all I recollect.
Q. Before this conversation took place, did not Mr. De Berenger say that he wished to be attended by Counsel, if they wished to converse with him?
A. Mr. De Berenger did answer something, but I cannot state what it was; I did not attend to the conversation.
Q. Before these Gentlemen were introduced by you to him, did he not say that he was exhausted by his journey, and unwilling to see them, unless he could have some person present?
A. He did; he said he was very unwell, and exhausted by his journey.
Q. And desired not to see them, unless some person was present with them?
A. Yes, I think he did say something of that kind, that he was very faint with his journey.
Q. But nevertheless you introduced them to him that evening?
A. They were in the room with him, they came into the room with him; that was at the time that Mr. Wakefield was in the room, I believe.
Mr. Park. That he was very unwell, and would not answer unless some person was with him?
Lord Ellenborough. Did he say that he was unwilling to answer, without having some friend present?
A. I do not recollect that; but he said he was very unwell, and exhausted with the journey.
Mr. Park. Nevertheless a long conversation did take place, did it?
A. I believe Mr. Wakefield was there about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, not more than that.
Re-examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Did you put your marks upon these things before you went to Holland?
A. Yes, I did.
Mr. Joseph Fearn called again;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Be so good as to look at that check dated the 10th of February 1814 [shewing it to the Witness] did you give that check to Mr. Butt?
A. I did on the day of its date, the 10th of February.
Mr. Joseph Brumfield sworn;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Are you the clerk that paid the check on the 10th of February?
A. I am not.
Q. Is Mr. Evans here?
A. I believe not; I have not seen him.
Mr. William Smallbone called again;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. On the 19th of February 1814, did you draw that check [shewing it to the Witness]?
A. Yes.
Q. For whom?
A. For Lord Cochrane.
Q. Did you give it to Lord Cochrane?
A. I did.
Q. For Lord Cochrane?
A. Yes.
Q. To pay for gains upon the stock account?
A. Not gains exactly, but upon the stock account.
Q. To whom personally did you give it?
A. To Lord Cochrane.
Cross examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q. Was Mr. Butt in the office at the time?
A. Yes, I think he was.
Q. Do you recollect whether you gave it into the hands of Lord Cochrane or Mr. Butt?
A. I think into the hand of Lord Cochrane; I feel satisfied in my mind that I gave it to Lord Cochrane and not to Mr. Butt.
Q. If you gave it to Lord Cochrane, did you see Lord Cochrane hand it over to Mr. Butt?
A. No, I cannot say that I did.
Q. Have you no recollection one way or the other?
A. No.
Q. Nor is your recollection very distinct whether you gave it to one or the other?
A. I have no reason to think I gave it to Mr. Butt.
Q. Mr. Butt frequently acted for Lord Cochrane?
A. Not with me.
Lord Ellenborough. Do you believe you gave it to Lord Cochrane?
A. I do, but I am not certain whether I laid it before him upon the table, or gave it into his hand.
Lord Ellenborough. You presented it to him, and gave it into his reach, so that he might take it?
A. Yes.
A Juryman. You charged him with it in account?
A. Yes, I did.
[The check on Messrs. Jones, Loyd & Company, dated the 10th of February 1814, for the sum of L.470. 19s. 4d. was read.]
Edward Wharmby sworn;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Are you clerk to Jones, Loyd & Company?
A. Yes.
Q. Look at that check [handing it to the Witness] did you pay that check?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. On what day?
A. On the 19th of February.
Q. In what Bank notes did you pay it?
A. In one of L.200.
Mr. Serjeant Best. From what are you speaking.
A. I have a copy of the notes.
Q. Is the book here?
A. No.
Mr. Gurney. You were directed to bring the books with you,—you must go and fetch them.
Benjamin Lance sworn;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. On the 26th of February did you give that check to Mr. Butt?
A. Yes, I did. [The check was handed in.]
Mr. Gurney. Perhaps, my Lord, I had better wait till the witness brings the books; I am extremely sorry for the loss of time?
Lord Ellenborough. It will be more clear.
Mr. Gurney. I have a little more evidence to give under this head, if your Lordship will allow me to give that now, the letter which I opened, offering Mr. M'Rae's discovery.
Mr. Joseph Fearn called again;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. Look at that letter, [shewing a letter to the witness,] do you believe that to be Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand-writing?
A. I do.
Q. Do you believe that also to be Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand-writing?
A. Yes, I believe that also to be the same that is dated the 18th of April.
[The letters were delivered in, and read as follow:]
"To the Chairman of the Committee, "Stock Exchange, No. 18, Great Cumberland-street, 12th April 1814.
"Sir,
"I have this moment received a letter, of which the enclosed is a copy, and lose no time in transmitting it to you for the information of the gentlemen composing the Stock Exchange Committee; from the bearer of the letter, I am given to understand, that Mr. M'Rae, is willing to disclose the names of the Principals concerned in the late hoax, on being paid the sum of L.10,000. to be deposited in some banker's hands, in the names of two persons, to be nominated by himself, and to be paid to him on the conviction of the offenders.
I am happy to say, that there seems now a reasonable prospect of discovering the authors of the late hoax, and I cannot evince my anxious wish to promote such discovery, more than by assuring you that I am ready to contribute liberally towards the above sum of 10,000l. and I rest assured, that you will eagerly avail yourselves of this opportunity, to effect the proposed discovery (an object you profess to have so much at heart) by concurring with me in such contribution.
I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient humble servant, (Signed) A. Cochrane Johnstone."
[The inclosure was read as follows:]
"April 12th.
"Sir,
"I authorize the bearer of this note, to state to you that I am prepared to lay before the Public, the names of the persons who planned and carried into effect the late hoax, practised at the Stock Exchange the 21st of February, provided you accede to the terms which my friend will lay before you.
I am, Sir, Your obedient Servant, A. M'Rae."
To the honourable, Cochrane Johnstone.
"No. 18, Great Cumberland-street, 18th April 1814.
"Sir,
"I have to request, that you will be so good as to inform me what are the intentions of the Stock Exchange, on the subject of the letter which I addressed to you relative to the proposal of Mr. M'Rae.
Lord Cochrane, Mr. Butt, and myself, are willing to subscribe 1,000l. each, in aid of the 10,000l. required by Mr. M'Rae; the bearer waits your answer, which, to prevent any mistake, I hope you will find time to commit to writing.
I am, Sir, Your obedient servant, A. Cochrane Johnstone."
To Mr. Charles Laurence, Chairman of the Committee of the Stock Exchange.
[Mr. Gurney to Mr. Fearn.]
Q. Look at the address of that letter [shewing a letter to the witness] is that address Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand-writing?
A. I believe it to be so.
[The letter was read as follows.]
"To the Committee of the Stock Exchange.
No. 18, Great Cumberland-street, 14 March 1814.
As the report of the Stock Exchange Committee conveys an idea to the public, that they estimated delinquency by the enormous profits which accrued to Lord Cochrane, Mr. Butt, and myself, on the sale of Stock upon the 21st day of February, and as the public prints have estimated the gains, some at 100,000l. others at 75,000l. and none under 30,000l. I pledge myself to prove that the whole profits are as follow; viz.
Lord Cochrane L.1,700. Mr. Butt 1,300. Mr. Cochrane Johnstone 3,500.
If the Committee had acted impartially, they would have published a statement of all the purchases and sales effected by every broker on that day, with the names of the parties, that the Public might have drawn their conclusions. To obviate this omission on the part of the Committee, I am preparing for the press a correct statement of all sums bought for the parties before-mentioned, together with the names of those from whom the Stock was procured, and to whom sold; whereby it will be seen, who were the purchasers at an early hour on the 21st day of February.
A. Cochrane Johnstone."
Charles Laurence, Esq. Chairman of the Committee of the Stock Exchange.
Mr. Gurney. I apply that to the memorandum I before read, by which it appears that he states his own gains and Mr. Butt's to be L.4,800. subtracting Lord Cochrane's; the whole is L.6,500.
Edward Wharmby called again;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. On what day in February did you pay that check? [shewing it to the witness.]
A. The 19th of February.
Mr. Serjeant Best. Is that entry in the book your own hand-writing?
A. It is.
Mr. Gurney. In what Bank notes did you pay it?
A. In one of two hundred pounds, No. 634.
Q. What other notes?
A. Two, of one hundred pounds each.
Q. What are the numbers?
A. 18,468 is one of them, and the other 16,601.
Q. Was there a L.50.?
A. Yes, No. 7,375.
Mr. Gurney. It is not necessary to mention the other, because I do not trace it.
Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.
Q. You do not know to whom you paid that?
A. No, I do not.
Lord Ellenborough. You paid it to the bearer of that check for L.470, in discharge of that check?
A. Yes, I did.
Mr. Thomas Parker sworn;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. You are a coal-merchant?
A. Yes.
Q. Does Lord Cochrane deal with you?
A. He did.
Q. Did you receive from him in payment a bank note of fifty pounds.
A. To the best of my recollection I did.
Q. On what day?
A. I do not exactly know the day; but some time in the beginning of March I think, or probably in the end of February.
A Bank Clerk produced the L.50. note No. 7,375.
Q. Did Lord Cochrane make that payment to you in that bank note?
A. Yes, I believe he did.
Mr. Serjeant Best. Is that your own memorandum?
A. Yes; I write on the back of the notes, and that is my hand-writing.
Benjamin Lance called again;
Examined by Mr. Gurney.
Q. On the 24th of February, did you go to the Bank to exchange any bank notes for smaller notes?
A. I did.
Q. By whose desire did you go?
A. Mr. Butt's.
Q. Are those the two notes you received from him to exchange? [shewing the witness the two notes for L.100. each, produced by the bank clerk.]
A. They are.
Lord Ellenborough. Have you seen those L.100. notes, which you carried to the Bank to exchange for smaller notes?
A. I have this moment.
Mr. Gurney. What did you receive in exchange for them?
A. I received two hundred notes for one pound each.
Q. What did you do with those notes?
A. I gave them to Mr. Butt.
Cross-examined by Mr. Scarlett.
Q. Have you any connexion with Mr. Smallbone.
A. Yes, I am with Mr. Smallbone.
Q. Do you remember at any time, on the 15th of February, Mr. Butt lending Lord Cochrane two hundred pounds, in order to make up a sum that he had to pay?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 15th of February?
A. Yes, it might be on the 15th of February.
Q. Do you remember going with that check [shewing it to the witness] which was afterwards given by Mr. Smallbone, to get the money?
A. Yes, that check for L.470. 19s. 4d.
Q. That bears date the 19th of February?
A. Yes.
Q. You were the person who took that to the banker's, to get the money for it?
A. Exactly so.
Q. You say you know Mr. Butt did lend Lord Cochrane two hundred pounds?
A. So I understood; I did not see him lend it.
Mr. Gurney. He does not know that it was lent?
Mr. Scarlett. How do you know that it was lent?
A. Only by Mr. Butt saying so.
Lord Ellenborough. At what time?
A. The 15th of February.
Lord Ellenborough. This check is dated the 19th?
Mr. Scarlett. You received in payment for that check, two notes of L.100. each?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do with those two notes of 100l. each?
A. I gave them to Lord Cochrane.
Q. That was on the 19th of February?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Were you present when Lord Cochrane paid those notes back to Mr. Butt?
A. I was not.
Q. Though you were not present when those notes were given by him to Mr. Butt, do you know that those notes were in Mr. Butt's hands afterwards?
A. I know of receiving them from him.
Q. Though you paid them to Lord Cochrane upon the 19th, did you not afterwards receive them from Mr. Butt?
A. I received the two L.100. notes I have now looked at from Mr. Butt.
Q. It was by Mr. Butt's desire you changed them for small notes at the Bank?
A. Yes.
Q. That you say was the 24th of February?
A. Yes.
Q. For Mr. Butt?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Lord Cochrane in the city at that time?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Do you know on the 15th of February of any loan made by Mr. Smallbone to Lord Cochrane?
A. Yes, I do.
Mr. Gurney. Do you know that of your own knowledge, or how do you know that?
A. I know that of my own knowledge.
Mr. Scarlett. I believe you know that my Lord had a certain sum to make up to pay what he owed at that time?
A. He had.
Q. How much was that amount?
A. I am not prepared to tell you the exact amount.
Q. Was it between six and seven hundred pounds?
A. More than that.
Q. Do not you know that he was without the money in the City, to make it up at that time?
A. He was.
Q. How much did he borrow of Mr. Smallbone?
A. I cannot say exactly.
Q. Was it L.450.?
A. L.450. I think, was advanced by me as clerk to Mr. Smallbone.
Lord Ellenborough.. In all L.450.
A. In all L.450.
Q. L.250. in these bank notes?
A. No, L.450. besides these bank notes.
Lord Ellenborough. The L.450. is to be added to these bank notes?
Mr. Scarlett. The witness was not present when Mr. Butt lent the L.200. I was about to shew, that besides the L.450. that Mr. Smallbone lent, Lord Cochrane wanted L.200. more, and that he went out to get it.
Lord Ellenborough. Did you see the L.200. lent to Lord Cochrane?
A. No.
Q. How do you know it was lent?
A. Because I was told so by Lord Cochrane.
Lord Ellenborough. Then it comes to nothing?
Mr. Scarlett. He knows the fact that he wanted the L.200. You advanced L.450. yourself?
A. Yes, I did.
Lord Ellenborough. In gold or bank notes?
A. In bank notes.
Q. In what description of bank notes?
A. The money was lent in fact by Mr. Smallbone, and he made up the difference; it is not usual to pay in bank notes, and we made it up in checks; his Lordship had left his money at the west end of the town.
Mr. Scarlett. You advanced his Lordship L.450.?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that all that he wanted, or did he want more?
A. No, he wanted L.200. more.
Lord Ellenborough. This advance must all be in paper? |
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