Q. How far had you gone before this gentleman spoke to you?

A. To Bexley Heath, about two miles and a half.

Q. Had he before that said any thing to you about driving?

A. Not that I heard.

Q. When he came to Bexley Heath what did he say to you?

A. He told me not to hurry my horses, for his business was not so particular now, since the telegraph could not work he thought.

Q. Were you in sight of a telegraph then?

A. No.

Q. What sort of a morning was it?

A. Rather a thick morning; very frosty.

Lord Ellenborough. Did it appear to you to be so thick a morning that the telegraphs could not work?

A. It did.

Mr. Adolphus. What did you say to him?

A. I told him I thought the telegraphs could not work, for I knew almost every telegraph between Deal and London. He then said, Post-boy, don't take any notice of the news as you go along; I told him I would not unless he wished; he said I might tell any of my friends as I returned, for he dar'st to say they would be glad to hear it. He then said that he had sent a letter to the Port-Admiral at Deal, for he was ordered to do so, or he was obliged to do so, I will not be certain which.

Lord Ellenborough. You are sure he said so?

A. I am sure he said so. He said that he had to walk two miles after he came ashore before he got to the Ship at Dover. He said the Frenchmen were afraid of coming so near to Dover, for fear of being stopped, the Frenchmen that brought him; then we drove on till we came to Shooter's Hill.

Mr. Adolphus. Did he tell you why he had sent to the Port-Admiral at Deal?

A. To have the telegraphs worked, that he said was the reason.

Q. Did any thing further pass between you at the time?

A. Not any thing that I recollect.

Q. Had you any subsequent conversation at any other part of the stage?

A. Not till I got to Shooter's Hill; when I came there I alighted from my horse, and so did my fellow-servant; the gentleman then looked out of the window, and gave us part of a bottle of wine; he said we might drink that, because he was afraid the bottle should break, and some cakes with it.

Q. What sort of cakes?

A. Little round cakes; I chucked the bottle away, and handed the glass again into the chaise; he told me I might keep it, that I might have it. He then said, "Post-boy, you have had a great deal of snow here, I understand?" I said, "Yes, Sir, we have." He then said, "Here is a delightful morning, post-boy; I have not seen old England a long while before." Then he asked me, "which was the first hackney coach stand?" I told him, at the Bricklayer's Arms, was the first.

Q. Did he say why he asked that question?

A. Not a word; he said that would not do, for that was too public; he was afraid some body would cast some reflections, and he should not like that. I told him, I did not think any body would do that, that they would be so glad to hear of the news. Then he asked me, if there was not a hackney coach stand in Lambeth Road? I told him yes. Then he said, "Drive me there, post-boy, for your chaise will go faster than a hackney coach will, and so you may drive me there." I drove him to the Lambeth Road, and when I came there, there was no coach on the stand.

Q. Where about is the Lambeth Road?

A. I went from the Dog and Duck by the Asylum; this coach-stand was at the Three Stags, there was no hackney coach there. I ordered my fellow-servant to stop, and I looked round and told the gentleman there was no hackney coach there; but that there was a coach-stand at the Marsh Gate, and if he liked to get in there, I dared to say nobody would take any notice of him—I drove him up along side of a coach.

Q. Did he do any thing upon that?

A. I think he pulled up the side-blind as I came round the corner.

Q. Was the side-blind up?

A. Yes, it was up when I came there; I saw it up, but I did not see when he pulled it up.

Lord Ellenborough. Having been down before, it was up when you got there?

A. Yes, when I got there I pulled up alongside of a hackney coach.

Mr. Adolphus. How many hackney coaches were there?

A. Only one; I called the coachman, and the waterman opened the coach door, and I opened the chaise door.

Q. Did the gentleman go into the coach?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. How?

A. He stepped off my step on to that, for he stepped on the body of the coach, or on the step of the coach; I cannot say he never stepped on the ground, the coach and the chaise were too nigh together.

Q. Did he make you any present for your trouble?

A. He then held his hand down, and gave me two Napoleons; I have them here now; he did not say one was for my fellow-servant and the other for myself, but I supposed it was so (the witness produced the Napoleons.)

Q. Did you hear him tell the coachman where to drive to?

A. I did not.

Q. Do you know the name of the coachman or the waterman?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is the name of the coachman?

A. Crane.

Q. Do you know the waterman's name?

A. I am not rightly sure; I think they call him Bob. I know his person very well.

Q. How was this gentleman dressed, that you drove to town?

A. He was dressed with a dark fur cap—a round cap, and with white lace, of some sort, round it; whether it was gold or silver, I cannot say; he had a red coat on underneath his outer coat.

Q. What sort of a coat was his outer coat?

A. I think it was a dark coat, a kind of brown coat—but I will not swear to that.

Q. You saw a red coat underneath it?

A. Yes, I saw a red coat down as far as the waist; I did not see the skirts of it.

Q. Did you make any particular observation upon the red coat?

A. No, I think it was turned up with yellow; but I should not like to swear that.

Q. Had it any thing upon it?

A. It had a star of some sort upon it, but I was not close enough to see that, and cannot swear to what it was.

Q. Was that all that you observed of his dress?

A. No, not quite all, I think; I think upon the outer coat there was fur, a kind of white fur, the same as off a rabbit's skin.

Q. But that you do not recollect with certainty?

A. No, I should not like to swear to that.

Q. As you conversed so much with that gentleman, do you think you should know him again?

A. I should know him in a moment.

Q. Have you seen him since you have been in Court?

A. Yes, that is the gentleman (pointing to De Berenger.)

Q. Have you any doubt that is the person?

A. Not at all.

Q. Since the day you drove him, have you seen him before to-day?

A. I have.

Q. How often?

A. Only once.

Q. Where was that?

A. In King-street, Westminster, in a room there.

Q. Did you equally well know him then?

A. I did the moment I saw him.

Q. Had you ever the least doubt about him?

A. Never the least in the world; I knew him as soon as I saw him.

Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.

Q. Have you not been told this morning in what part of the Court he sat?

A. No, I never enquired about it; I looked round when I came in and found him out in a moment; I dare say every gentleman in the Court saw me.

Q. Had you never seen him before this time you speak of in February?

A. I have seen him since, I never saw him before February, to my knowledge.

Q. When was it that you heard of the reward which was offered by the Stock Exchange?

A. I heard of it the day it was printed.

Q. How long after this transaction happened?

A. I think two or three days afterwards.

Q. Do you remember the Club at Dartford, called the Hat Club?

A. Yes, perfectly well; I was there.

Q. Do you remember the conversation there, whether Crane or you should get the reward?

A. Yes, I remember being asked, whether I thought I should get the reward, and I said I thought not.

Q. You produced your purse, with what you had got?

A. Yes, I produced my purse, and rapped it on the table in this way, but that was money I had laid out before; I had received five pounds from the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange towards my expences.

Q. What might be your observation, when you rapped it upon the table?

A. To let them know that I had it.

Q. Did you say any thing about the yellow boys?

A. Yes, those were the gold Napoleons.

Q. Did you not say that the gentleman applauded you, and said you were a clever fellow?

A. No, I did not, I would have said very wrong if I had, I am sure.

Q. I think they would have done you no more than justice. Did you not on that occasion say, you would swear for that side that paid you best?

A. No, I did not.

Q. On that occasion, nor any other?

A. No, I never did, you may depend upon it.

Q. Nor any thing to that effect?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Who were present at this time?

A. Upon my word I do not know; several members round about.

Q. Several neighbours?

A. Yes, they were members.

Q. Was a person of the name of Man there?

A. I do not know him.

Q. Or Wood?

A. I do not know such a person; there were not above a dozen of them there; but I am not there often myself.

Q. How many members of the club are there?

A. I do not know, indeed; the hat maker pays my money for me; being very much out, I am not there one time in ten.

Q. When you are there, you do not know who are present?

A. No, I do not exactly.

Lord Ellenborough. What is this Hat Club?

A. We pay a shilling a week, and have a pint of beer; I have not been there these several weeks.

Lord Ellenborough. You get part of your money back in a hat?

A. We pay twenty-four shillings, and then have a hat for it.

Mr. Richardson. You have described this gentleman's person before to-day?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. You have been examined upon several occasions before this?

A. I have been examined at the Stock Exchange, and before the Grand Jury, no where else.

Q. Did not you describe the person as one that had a great red nose, and a blotched face?

A. A red nose I said, and his face was very red that morning, for it was very frosty. I said he was pitted with the small-pox.

Lord Ellenborough. Red or not sure you are, of the identity of the face?

A. Yes, I am sure of it.

Mr. Richardson. It was you that told him of the stand of coaches in the Lambeth Road?

A. Yes.

Q. That is before you come to the Marsh Gate?

A. Yes.

Q. That is not far from the Asylum, is it?

A. No.

Q. You went there for the purpose of getting a coach in the first instance?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you told him he might perhaps get one at the Marsh Gate?

A. Yes.

William Bartholemew was called into Court.

Q. (to Shilling) Is that the waterman?

A. That is the waterman.

William Bartholemew sworn.

Examined by Mr. Adolphus.

Q. Are you a waterman attending a stand of coaches?

A. Yes.

Q. Where?

A. At the Marsh Gate.

Q. Do you know Shilling, the last witness?

A. Yes, by seeing him come up with post chaises from Dartford.

Q. He is a Dartford boy?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember at any time in February, his coming with a chaise with a gentleman in it?

A. Yes, the 21st of February.

Q. What day in the week was it?

A. On a Monday.

Q. With how many horses?

A. Four horses.

Q. At what time in the morning?

A. Between nine and half past nine in the morning.

Q. Was there a coach on the stand?

A. Yes.

Q. Any more than one?

A. No more than one.

Q. Who drove that coach?

A. One Crane.

Q. Did you see the gentleman get into it?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How did he go in?

A. He stepped out of one into the other?

Q. Did you open the door and let down the step for him?

A. Yes.

Q. How was that gentleman dressed?

A. He had got a kind of brown cap on, and a dark drab military sort of coat.

Q. Was there any thing round the cap?

A. There was a sort of band or something round the cap.

Q. What had he under his military great coat?

A. A scarlet coat.

Q. Did you see any thing on the scarlet coat?

A. I only took notice of the lace upon it.

Q. Where did that gentleman order the coach to drive to?

A. Up to Grosvenor Square.

Q. To what street?

A. I do not recollect whether he told me any street, only Grosvenor Square.

Q. Do you think you should know that gentleman again?

A. I do not know; dress makes such an alteration.

Q. Look round, and see whether you can see any one.

A. I do not see that I can recollect him, only seeing him that half minute.

Q. Look at that gentleman who is stooping down to write, (De Berenger,) and see whether you think that is like him?

A. Yes, I do upon my word, but I only saw him for about half a minute.

Cross-examined by Mr. Park.

Q. You, being a waterman, take that particular notice of every body that gets into a hackney coach, that you are quite sure having seen him step from the chaise into the coach, that he is the man?

A. I said at first, that the dress made such an alteration that I should think I should hardly know him.

Q. If I were to get into your coach with this dress on, and afterwards with my ordinary dress, you would hardly know me again?

A. No, I should think not.

Richard Barwick sworn.

Examined by Mr. Adolphus.

Q. What are you?

A. I am clerk to Messrs. Paxtons and Company.

Q. Where is their house of business?

A. In Pall Mall.

Q. They are Bankers?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Do you remember a particular circumstance in passing near the Marsh Gate any morning?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. On what day?

A. Monday Morning the 21st February.

Q. What did you observe in passing?

A. I observed a post chaise with four horses, it had galloped at a very great rate, the horses were exceedingly hot, and the man was getting into a hackney coach that the people there told me had come out of that chaise.

Q. Did you hear that person who got into the coach say anything?

A. No, I had no conversation with any body.

Q. Did you follow that coach?

A. I did.

Q. How far?

A. I saw it as far as the Little Theatre, in the Haymarket.

Q. Why did you follow that hackney coach.

A. Because I wanted to know what the news was.

Lord Ellenborough. How came you to know any thing about the news?

A. I was told, it was a General Officer arrived with news, and I wanted to know what it was.

Lord Ellenborough. You were told it was an Officer arrived with news?

A. Yes, I was.

Mr. Adolphus. Then you went to your own business, having followed this coach to the Haymarket?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he pass by any of the public offices?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Did he stop at any of them?

A. No.

Q. He went straight to the Haymarket?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Was that the reason why you desisted from following?

A. It was nine o'clock, and I must be at the office by that hour, and therefore I did not go on.

Q. Did you see enough of that person to know him again?

A. I believe, I did.

Q. Look at him, and see whether you know his person again?

(The witness looked round.)

Lord Ellenborough. Did you see his body?

A. I saw his face in the coach, he had a cap on such as the German Cavalry wear, after an evening parade, with a gold band upon it.

Mr. Adolphus. Have you seen that person in court?

Lord Ellenborough. There is no objection to his looking at the Defendant, and seeing whether he is the person.

(The witness looked at the Defendant De Berenger.)

A. I really do not know that I do see him exactly.

Mr. Park. This is the gentleman said to be the man.

Lord Ellenborough. If you do not recollect the gentleman's person, say so.

Mr. Park. Is the result of your looking that you do not believe this to be the man?

A. He is something like him.

Q. One man is something like another, he goes upon two legs, and has two hands, and so on.

A. It is like him certainly.

William Crane sworn.

Examined by Mr. Adolphus.

Q. Do you drive a hackney coach?

A. Yes.

Q. What number.

A. 890.

Q. On a Monday morning in February do you remember taking up a fare at the Marsh Gate?

A. Yes.

Q. What day of the month was it?

A. The 21st of February.

Q. Where did the fare come from?

A. From Dartford.

Q. Out of what?

A. A post chaise and four—a Dartford chaise.

Q. Where were you directed to drive to?

A. To Grosvenor Square.

Q. Where to there?

A. He did not say where in Grosvenor Square.

Q. Where did you set him down?

A. I drove him into Grosvenor Square, and then the gentleman put down the front glass and told me to drive to No. 13, Green Street.

Q. Did the gentleman get out there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear whom he asked for?

A. He asked for Colonel or Captain somebody, I did not hear the name, and they said he was gone to breakfast in Cumberland Street.

Q. What did the gentleman say then?

A. The gentleman asked if he could write a note to him.

Q. Did he go in?

A. Yes, he went into the parlour.

Q. Were you discharged then?

A. Yes, the gentleman gave me four shillings before he went in, and I said, I hoped he would give me another shilling: he took out a bit of a portmanteau that he had, and a sword, and went in, and came out into the passage and gave me another shilling.

Q. What sort of a portmanteau was it?

A. A small leather one, big enough to wrap a coat up in.

Q. What sort of leather?

A. I think black leather, as well as I can recollect.

Q. Have you seen that person since that you drove that morning?

A. Yes, I saw him in King Street, Westminster.

Q. At the messenger's house?

A. At Mr. Wood's house.

Q. Do you see him in court?

A. I think this is the gentleman, here, (pointing to De Berenger.)

Q. Were you of the same opinion when you saw him at Mr. Wood's?

A. When I came down stairs he looked very hard at me.

Q. Did you know him then?

A. Yes, it was something of the same appearance, but he had altered himself very much by his dress.

Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.

Q. You went to Wood's for the purpose of seeing him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Wood is a messenger of the Alien Office?

A. He lives in King Street.

Q. He was pointed out there as being the person in custody?

A. No, I walked down stairs, and met the gentleman coming up stairs.

Q. You thought you saw a resemblance?

A. Yes, I thought he was something like the same gentleman that I had carried.

Q. You do not pretend to be able to recollect every person you carry in your hackney coach every day?

A. No, but this gentleman that I took from a post chaise and four, when he got out at Green Street I saw that he had a red coat underneath his great coat.

Q. You did not open your coach to him, the waterman did that?

A. Yes, the post boy ordered me to get on the box.

Lord Ellenborough. When he got out you opened the door to him I suppose?

A. Yes, I did.

Mr. Richardson. Did you open the door, or the footman at the house?

A. I opened the door.

Q. And he paid you and passed into the house?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. What was the colour of his great coat?

A. A brown grey great coat, with a brown cape with lace to it.

Q. You have before described the great coat as a brown great coat, have not you?

A. A kind of a brown grey.

Q. Did not you describe it before as a kind of a brown coat?

A. No.

Mr. Gurney. I will now prove the finding the clothes in the river, and then prove the purchase of them.

George Odell sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. Are you a waterman?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember in the month of February last, fishing up any bundle in the river?

A. In the month of March.

Q. Where did you fish it up?

A. Above the Old Swan Stairs, off against the Iron Wharfs.

Q. Were you dredging for any thing?

A. I was dredging for coals with a drag.

Q. What kind of a bundle did you find?

A. I picked up a bundle, tied up with a piece of chimney line, or window line in the cover of a calico chair bottom.

Q. What was in it?

A. I think there were two sleeves of a coat, and then a coat cut to pieces, and embroidery, and a star, and a silver coat of arms, with two figures upon it.

Q. How was it sunk?

A. With three pieces of lead, three screws, and some marks for letters.

Q. With some metal?

A. Yes, and some bits of coal.

Q. Did you give that which you found to Mr. Wade, the Secretary of the Stock Exchange?

A. Yes.

Q. How soon after you found it did you give it to him?

A. I picked it up on the Wednesday, and I carried it there on the Saturday.

Mr. Park. Can you give us the day of the month when you picked this up?

A. The 24th of March.

Mr. Gurney. Did you find it on the 24th of March, or give it to Mr. Wade on that day?

A. I picked it up on that day, about half after eleven o'clock in the day; I can bring plenty of witnesses to my picking it up.

Q. Are these the sort of things that you picked up? (shewing a bundle of clothes with star, &c. to the witness.)

A. These are the sort of things, but the star was not in that state it is now; the star was in half, and one of the birds was off.

Mr. Gurney. This, my Lord, is an order of masonry, and this I understand a Russian order of knighthood, the order of St. Ann.

Mr. Francis Baily sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. You are of the Stock Exchange?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Were you present with Mr. Wade, when he received the parcel from Odell?

A. I was,—from the last witness in the box.

Q. Was it delivered over to Mr. Lavie?

A. I believe it was, it lay upon the table some time.

Q. Did you examine it?

A. I did, very minutely.

Q. Are the things contained in that parcel?

A. I believe them to be, they appear to be the same.

Mr. Gurney (to Mr. Lavie). Did you receive that from Mr. Wade?

Mr. Lavie. I did, I took it from the Stock Exchange room.

Q. Mr. Wade and Mr. Baily were present?

Mr. Lavie. Yes, they were.

Mr. Robert Watson Wade sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. You are the Secretary at the Stock Exchange?

A. I am.

Q. Did you, in company with Mr. Baily and other gentlemen, receive from Odell the bundle said to be found in the River?

A. I did.

Q. Was it given to Mr. Lavie?

A. It was.

Q. The star we understand was then in two pieces?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it afterwards sewn together?

A. It was, for the purpose of being exhibited.

Simeon Kensington Solomon sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. I believe you are a military accoutrement maker?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Have you a shop at Charing-Cross, and another at New-Street Covent Garden?

A. We have.

Q. On the Saturday the 19th of February do you remember any person making a purchase of any military dress at your house?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What dress was purchased of you?

A. A military great coat and foraging cap.

Q. What is it made of?

A. Dark fur.

Q. Was any thing on it?

A. It had a pale gold band.

Q. Have you since had a cap and a coat made exactly resembling them?

A. I have.

Q. Are these the cap and the coat you have had so made? (shewing them to the witness.)

A. They are.

Q. Do they exactly resemble the cap and the coat you sold?

A. As nearly as I could possibly recollect.

Q. What else did the person purchase?

A. They purchased at our house in New Street——

Q. You suppose some order had been given in New-Street, did any thing come from New-Street as having been ordered there?

A. Yes there did.

Q. You were at Charing Cross?

A. I was.

Q. Did any person come to your shop at Charing-Cross and take away that which had been sent from New-Street which you furnished?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Was there any other coat purchased besides that great coat?

A. There was a military regimental coat, a staff coat was brought from New-Street.

Q. Was that scarlet?

A. Yes, fitted for a staff officer the uniform of an Aid de Camp.

Q. With this sort of gold lace upon it?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you examined these fragments?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Were there any ornaments besides?

A. There was a star and a badge.

Q. Look at that star and badge and tell me whether you believe them to be the same?

A. Yes, I do believe them to be the same.

Q. Why do you believe them to be the same?

A. The star I certainly believe to be the same, because we had the very fellow star.

Q. Except these two, did you ever see any star like them?

A. I do not know that ever I did.

Q. Do you believe that badge to be the same?

A. The badge I did not notice much.

Q. You sold a badge?

A. The badge came from our house in New-Street.

Q. Had you any conversation with the person?

A. Yes I had.

Q. You have examined these fragments?

A. I have.

Q. Do you believe them to be the fragments of the dress you furnished, or of such a dress?

A. They appear to be those materials, as far as I can judge in that state.

Q. And the same kind of lace?

A. The same description of embroidery.

Q. Speaking of a thing so cut to pieces, does it appear to you to consist of the remnants of the dress you furnished?

A. Yes, except that the scarlet is very much discoloured by being under water, it appears the same description of coat.

Q. Had you any conversation with the person as to the use of these things?

A. I had very little conversation as to the sale of the uniform, for they were already purchased before I saw him, with respect to the great coat I sold that and also the cap.

Q. Did he mention for what purpose they were wanted?

A. He observed that they were wanted for a person who was to perform the character of a foreign officer, to be sent into the country that evening.

Q. Did he take them away with him?

A. Yes he did.

Q. Did you offer to lend them to him?

A. Where he purchased the uniform——

Q. If that was not in your presence you will not state it—did he take them away with him?

A. Yes he took them away in a coach.

Q. Had he any portmanteau with him?

A. He had a small portmanteau.

Q. Did he beat you down in the prices?

A. No, he did not.

Q. Did he say any thing about money?

A. No, he made no observations, he merely paid for them.

Q. You were conversing with that person for some time?

A. For a short time.

Q. Have you since seen him again—have you seen any person that you believed to be the same?

A. I was introduced to a person——

Q. Where was that?

A. At the Parliament-street Coffee House.

Q. Do you believe that person you saw at the Parliament-street Coffee House to be the person who so made the purchase?

A. That I cannot undertake to say.

Q. What do you believe?

A. In point of appearance he resembles him, except that the person whom I served had whiskers.

Q. I suppose the person you saw in Parliament street had not?

A. He had not.

Q. Look at him now and tell me whether you do or do not believe him to be the person? (The witness looked at the Defendant De Berenger.)

A. This is the person I was introduced to at the Coffee-house.

Q. Upon the oath you have taken, what is your belief respecting him?

A. I really cannot undertake to swear that he is the person?

Q. What do you believe?

A. The Gentleman that represented himself to be Mr. Wilson was dressed in a different manner, he had black whiskers, and from that circumstance I could not possibly undertake to swear it was the same person.

Q. What is your belief?

Mr. Park. That belief may be founded on different facts?

Lord Ellenborough. To those facts you will examine, Mr. Gurney is now examining, there is no objection to the question.

Mr. Gurney. What is your belief?

A. Upon my word it is impossible for me to say.

Q. Do you mean to say that you have no belief upon the matter?

A. I mean to say I cannot undertake to swear it is the person.

Q. What is your belief?

A. I believe it resembles the person, except that the person I served had whiskers.

Q. Making allowance for whiskers which may be taken off in a minute, what is your belief upon the subject?

A. Upon my word it is impossible for me to say.

Q. You can certainly say what is your belief?

Lord Ellenborough. You are not asked as to whether you are certain, but to your belief.

A. If I were to say I believe it is the person I might say wrong, if I were to say I believe it is not the person I might say otherwise, it may be the person but I cannot undertake to say I believe it is.

Mrs. Abigail Davidson sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. In the month of February last did you reside in the Asylum Buildings?

A. Yes.

Q. That is near to the Asylum?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the house within the rules of the King's Bench?

A. Yes it is.

Q. Did Mr. De Berenger lodge with you?

A. He did.

Q. Do you remember on what day he finally quitted your house?

A. On the 27th of February.

Q. What day of the week was that?

A. Sunday.

Q. Do you remember where he was the Sunday before that?

A. No.

Q. Did you see him on the morning of that Sunday?

A. No, on Sunday the 20th you mean, I did not.

Q. Did he sleep at home that night?

A. I cannot say.

Q. Did you see him that night at all?

A. We never attended to the door.

Q. Did you usually hear Mr. De Berenger in the morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Much or little did you hear him?

A. We heard him very frequently.

Q. Did you on the morning of Monday the 21st hear him as usual?

A. No.

Q. What did you use to hear of him on the mornings on which you did hear him?

A. We heard the bell ring for the servant.

Q. Once or more than once?

A. More than once?

Q. What rooms did he occupy?

A. The whole of the upper part of the house.

Q. What part did you occupy?

A. The parlours.

Q. How many rooms up stairs were there?

A. Four.

Q. And you and your husband occupied the two parlours?

A. Yes.

Q. On other mornings when you heard him besides ringing the bell did you hear any thing else respecting him?

A. Occasionally Mr. De Berenger would play on the violin or the trumpet.

Q. Did you hear him walk about?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. De Berenger then wear whiskers or no whiskers?

A. Whiskers.

Q. Was there any morning on which you were at home that you did not hear his bell and his walking about?

A. No, I generally heard his bell.

Q. Did you see him come home on the Monday?

A. No.

Q. How early on that evening did you see him?

A. In the evening about a quarter or half past five.

Q. Had you heard him in the house before that time?

A. I heard him in the afternoon.

Q. You say he quitted your house on the Sunday after?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember any Gentleman calling there the day before he quitted with a letter?

A. On the Saturday night—

Q. He called with a letter?

A. Yes he did.

Q. Have you since seen that Gentleman again?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you see him?

A. I saw him at the Temple?

Q. Was it at the Crown Office?

A. I do not know what office it was.

Q. Was Mr. Lavie present at the time you saw him?

A. Yes he was.

Q. Did you point him out to Mr. Lavie.

A. I cannot say that I should positively know the gentleman.

Q. Do you believe him to be the same?

A. Yes, I think it was.

Q. The same you had seen on the Saturday deliver that letter?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Had Mr. De Berenger two servants of the name of Smith, William Smith and his wife?

A. Yes.

Q. When he dined at home did his servants attend him?

A. Always.

Q. On the Sunday before he finally went away, Sunday the 20th, did he dine at home?

A. I cannot answer that.

Q. What was his usual dinner hour?

A. About four o'clock.

Q. Where were his servants at four o'clock on that day? At home or not?

A. I think they went out early on that day.

Q. What do you mean by early?

A. I mean two or half past two o'clock.

Q. Do you remember any thing about your key, respecting either of them, whether either of them had your key?

A. There was a private place where the key always hung for the accommodation of Mr. De Berenger and us.

Q. Where was the key put that night?

A. The key was always under the care of Mr. Smith.

Q. You did not see where he put it that night, did you?

A. No, I did not.

Cross-examined by Mr. Park.

Q. What Sunday was it that these servants went out to dinner at two or half past two?

A. On Sunday the 20th.

Q. You were preparing to go to chapel on that Sunday at eleven o'clock, and Mr. De Berenger went out at the time.

A. Mr. Davidson was going out, I did not go out.

Q. You were not well?

A. No.

Q. Mr. Davidson was going out.

A. Yes, but I did not see Mr. De Berenger.

Q. Did you hear your husband make an observation at the time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. You did not yourself attend to the door?

A. No.

Q. This Gentleman had been your lodger for some years, had he not?

A. Nine months?

Q. You do not mean to represent, that he slept from his own bed on that Sunday, the 20th?

A. I cannot say that he did, or that he did not.

Q. You do not make his bed or go into his room?

A. No.

Q. Do you sleep in the parlour?

A. Yes, we have the two parlours.

Q. What is your general hour of rising in the morning?

A. Between seven and eight.

Q. Mr. De Berenger's time of trumpeting is not so early as that I suppose?

A. I have heard him at nine o'clock.

Q. He did not alarm the neighbourhood at seven o'clock?

A. No, I have heard him by eight or nine.

Q. Not so soon as that I should think in the month of February, not being very warm weather at that time?

A. I cannot speak to the time.

Q. If a person went out at eight o'clock that morning, you had no particular reason to know of it?

A. No.

Q. You had no call to look after him on the Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday morning?

A. No.

Q. And whether he slept at home or did not, you cannot take upon yourself to say?

A. No.

Re-examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. My learned Friend has asked you as to your husband observing upon Mr. De Berenger's going out on the Sunday morning: in what words did your husband make the remark as to Mr. De Berenger's going out?

A. He called out, our lodger is gone out with a new great coat on.

Mr. Germain Lavie again called.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. Who was the Gentleman that Mrs. Davidson pointed out to you?

Mr. Serjeant Best. I object to that, that is a leading question.

Mr. Gurney. I beg pardon.—Did the last witness point out any person to you at the Crown-Office, at the time of striking the Jury?

A. Before she came into the Crown-Office she saw Mr. Cochrane Johnstone getting out of a Hackney coach at the Crown-Office door—she then told me——

Q. Did she point out any person to you as having seen him before?

A. No, she did not then.

Q. Did she afterwards fix upon any person as having seen him?

A. No she did not, unless I can speak to what passed before.

Q. Did she mention having seen any person get out of a Hackney Coach?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was that person that she observed upon?

A. The person she pointed out to me as having seen get out of a Hackney coach was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone—she staid the whole time of the striking of the Jury, he struck the Jury himself.

Lord Ellenborough. Then the whole of it is, that the person who was striking the Jury, was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

A. Yes.

Mr. Gurney. (to Mrs. Davidson). Was that person the person that you believe brought the Letter?

Q. I cannot be positive to his person.

Q. Do you believe that to be the person?

A. I think it was.

Mrs. Abigail Davidson.

Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.

Q. How came you to go for the purpose of striking the Jury.

A. A person from Mr. Lavie came and fetched me for the purpose.

Q. To attend to assist in striking the Jury?

A. No, to see Mr. Johnstone.

Q. You were told Mr. Johnstone was to be there?

A. Yes.

Q. And going there you saw a person taking a part with respect to the striking of the Jury?

A. I saw a Gentleman get out of the coach as I was standing in the passage, I saw a Gentleman come across, that I thought was the person, but I could not be positive.

Q. Can you take upon yourself to swear now, that was the person?

A. No, I would not swear it.

Re-examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. When you saw the person at the time he left the letter, had you any reason to know what his name was?

A. No, I had never seen the Gentleman before, but in conversing with Smith, Mr. De Berenger's servant——.

Q. Had you any conversation about him with Smith, Mr. Du Bourg's servant?

A. I had.

Mr. Gurney. I do not ask you what it was, my learned Friends may if they please.

Launcelot Davidson sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. Are you the husband of the last Witness?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. De Berenger we find lodged in your house?

A. He did.

Q. Do you remember on what day he quitted your house?

A. The 27th of February I think.

Q. What day of the week?

A. Sunday.

Q. Do you remember seeing him go out on the Sunday before the 20th.

A. Yes.

Q. At what hour of the day?

A. Before eleven.

Q. Have you any reason to know the time?

A. Yes, I had been out before, and I returned home and stood before the parlour window waiting to hear the Asylum clock strike eleven, to go to chapel.

Q. How was he dressed?

A. At that time that I saw him go out, I had seen him ten minutes before come in.

Q. How was he dressed when he came in before?

A. He had a plaid cloak on that he had worn nearly all the winter, he and I came in together, he was just before me.

Q. When he went out again, how was he dressed?

A. He had just such a coat as this on as to colour, (the grey coat before produced.)

Q. Did it appear to be new or old?

A. I cannot exactly say, but as he went down the yard, I said to my wife who was in the back parlour, there goes our lodger, he has a new great coat on, just before he had his plaid on when I came in.

Q. Did he come home again at all during that day?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Did you see or hear him at all during that day?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Did you see or hear him the next morning?

A. No, I am not at home—I always go out the early part of the morning.

Q. At what time do you go out?

A. About nine.

Q. Before nine had you either seen or heard him?

A. No, I had not.

Q. Do you usually hear him in a morning before that time?

A. Yes, I generally used to hear him walking about, or ringing for his servant, or something or other.

Q. On that Monday morning before you went out, did you hear those things you generally did?

A. No, I did not, and we made the observation upon it, and also upon the servants going out at two o'clock, which was not customary.

Q. At what time on the Sunday did they go out?

A. I think about two o'clock.

Q. At what time did they return?

A. That I cannot say.

Q. Did they return that evening?

A. I dare say they did, but we never opened the door?

Q. Were they out or at home at four o'clock?

A. That I cannot say, I do not think they were at home.

Q. What was Mr. De Berenger's usual dinner hour?

A. About four o'clock.

Q. Did they attend him at dinner?

A. The man servant did.

Q. And the woman servant cooked his dinner?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. Did he dine at home on that Sunday?

A. No, he did not.

Q. I do not ask you what conversation took place between you and the Smiths' next day respecting the Sunday night, but did any conversation take place on that subject?

A. Yes, there did.

Q. On the Sunday afterwards he left your house?

A. He did.

Q. Did you see him go away on the Sunday after?

A. No.

Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.

Q. You had nothing to do with his domestic life, with his dinner, or letting him into the house, or letting him out of it?

A. No.

Q. His servants attended to all that?

A. Yes.

Q. He might come in or go out without your observing it?

A. Yes, he might, but it is almost impossible I should think, because he generally gave a very loud rap at the door, and he had very few visitors.

Q. You yourself go out early in the morning upon your own business?

A. Yes, about nine o'clock.

Q. Do you stay out a considerable part of the day?

A. Yes.

Q. What is your business?

A. A broker.

Q. At that time you acted as a broker?

A. I acted as a broker's Clerk at that time.

Q. You are out a considerable part of the day, sometimes more, sometimes less.

A. Yes.

Mr. Gurney. Now my Lord I am going to what I have stated as the underplot, respecting M'Rae, Sandom, Lyte, and Holloway.

Thomas Vinn sworn.

Examined by Mr. Bolland.

Q. In consequence of a note that was left at your house, did you go to the Carolina Coffee House in February last?

A. I did, where I met M'Rae.

Q. What day in February was it?

A. On the 14th of February the note was dated, and I received it the 15th.

Q. On what day did you go to the Carolina Coffee House?

A. On the 15th in the morning.

Q. Did any body accost you there?

A. I met M'Rae, who was at that time in company with an elderly Gentleman, he desired me to sit down and he would be with me presently.

Q. Had you known M'Rae before?

A. I had some years.

Q. Did he return to you as he said he would?

A. He was not out of my sight, he was standing near the door, and in the course of seven or ten minutes, as far as I can recollect, he came and joined me.

Q. Upon his joining you what passed?

A. He told me he had known me a long time, and that he thought he had now an opportunity of making my fortune; that he knew from the knowledge I had of languages, particularly that of the French, I should have an opportunity of both benefiting others and myself.

Q. What answer did you make?

A. I asked him what the object was, and whether it was to travel abroad; he told me it was not to travel abroad, but it was probably to travel at home, and that almost immediately; that it was a scheme that he had in contemplation, employed by men of affluence and consequence, and that he thought no man more competent to that than myself.—On my asking him if there was any thing of moral turpitude in it, he said that there was none but that it was practised daily by men of the first consequence, it was nothing more nor less than biting the biters, or in other words, a Hoax upon the Stock Exchange. I asked him in what way I could attend to it, or in what way it was to be performed; he told me by going down to Dartford, Folkestone, or Dover, as I should receive instructions, and that, that evening, but that it was necessary to have for himself and me, two dresses appropriated to that of French Officers. I here stopped him, and asked whether he really meant me to be employed in this transaction, to which he replied, certainly, and that I should be in the first place remunerated, and ultimately have a fortune made me. I replied with indignation, that I would as soon be concerned in a highway robbery, that I thought he had known me better than to have suggested to me a plan of the kind, and expressed myself rather beyond the usual tone of my voice, hurt at it, he endeavoured to hush me by saying people would overhear us, he endeavoured to hush me by the ejaculation ish for that we should be overheard there.

Lord Ellenborough. Did he say you might probably be overheard there?

A. Yes, he did, and then he took me out of the Coffee-house and went up Cornhill where I left him, but recollecting this was only what was related to me, and that if ever it took place or did not, it was impossible that what I said could be any proof, I therefore considered that I had better——

Mr. Alley. Give us the facts if you please, and not the reasons?

Mr. Bolland. Do not trouble my friend with your reasons as he does not like them, but tell us what you did?

A. I returned and told him if he would go with me to another Coffee-house, I would introduce him to a person, who though I would not undertake the business might do it.

Q. What was your reason for doing that?

A. Only that I might have a witness.

Mr. Alley. I object to that reason being stated.

Lord Ellenborough. This is only introductory to what he is about to state. I presume no one can be more interested than I am in his narration being short?

A. I told him I would take him to a Coffee-house where a person was who might engage in this hoax.

Lord Ellenborough. I beg you will not call it by that name—such an offence as this.

Mr. Bolland. Did you take him to the Coffee-house?

A. Yes.

Q. What Coffee-house?

A. The Jamaica—there was a young man there to whom I was about to introduce him, but he turned round suddenly and I did not.

Q. Did any thing more pass between M'Rae and you?

A. No, nothing more.

Q. Any thing about French terms?

A. I recollect myself—In consequence of M'Rae returning, he asked me whether I would not give him in writing the terms Vive le Roi—Vive les Bourbons;—which in the expectation of his attending to this young man, (this was in the Jamaica Coffee-house) I gave him.

Q. Did you give him any other?

A. None other to my knowledge.

Q. Was that the letter you received from M'Rae? (shewing a letter to the witness.)

A. That is it.

Q. Is that M'Rae's writing?

A. It is.

(The Letter was read as follows:)

February 14, 1814.

Mr. Vinn,

Please to meet me at the Carolina Coffee-house, Birchin-lane, about eleven to-morrow, upon very particular interesting business.

Yours, very respectfully, ALEXANDER M'RAE.

Cross-examined by Mr. Alley.

Q. As I have not the pleasure of knowing you, what is your business?

A. I am an accountant.

Q. Have you been acquainted for any length of time with Mr. M'Rae?

A. I believe five years and a half, or nearly six years.

Q. Have you been concerned in any business in the Stock Exchange?

A. No.

Q. You were not in the habit of buying and selling as a Broker?

A. No.

Q. It was an odd thing that Mr. M'Rae should resort to you in such a base transaction, you being in the business of an Accountant?

A. I have been in business and have been unfortunate, and since have been an Accountant.

Q. Not to lose your character I take for granted?

A. I hope not.

Q. There was no other person present to hear this conversation?

A. He was talking with a gentleman when I entered.

Q. This rests upon your own testimony?

A. We afterwards joined a party, but no person heard the conversation but ourselves, except that any person might hear me when I became vociferous.

Q. You quite met my approbation when you told me that you considered this as base as if he had asked you to go on the highway—how came you to propose a friend of yours after that?

A. It was merely for the purpose of having a witness to the offer to me, because if not, and this took place what I had said would have been of no effect had it been rendered completely abortive by this failing with me.

Q. Then am I to understand you thought it better to let this wickedness be practised in order that it might afterwards be proved?

A. I am sorry I am so misunderstood, I only wished it should not be promulgated to the world merely on my ipse dixit, but on the testimony of another.

Q. You did introduce him to your friend?

A. No, I did not, he would not be introduced. I had communicated to my friend the business in question before he came.

Q. How soon did you communicate this to the Stock Exchange?

A. I communicated it within ten minutes afterwards on that day.

Q. After the thing had been publicly known?

A. No, I went immediately on this application being made and promulgated it to Mr. Rothery, of the Atlas Printing-Office, in Houndsditch; I afterwards went to a house in Clement's lane, where I promulgated it to thirteen or fourteen different persons, and I made it public daily in all the companies I went into.

Q. Was that before this happened?

A. It was on the 15th I made public, not the name of M'Rae, but that such a thing had been offered to me, which I refused with indignity.

Q. Some of these gentlemen are here as witnesses to-day I suppose?

A. I did not think it necessary, but I am perfectly willing that they should be called, I have seen two of them in Court and probably they may be so now.

Lord Ellenborough. This is merely a meditated something if you think it worth while to pursue it you may.

Mr. Alley. He only says that it rests upon his testimony, that was all I wanted to know—you gave him two bits of French to assist him however?

A. After I had agreed to take him to another friend, in order to get him to that business, I certainly did mention the name of Vive le Roi—Vive le Bourbons.

Q. Would not you have thought it quite as honest and as much to your purpose to have omitted that?

A. You will see that that was done for the purpose I have mentioned.

Mr. Gurney. Was it done in order to get a conformatory witness?

A. It was done with that intent and that only.

Sarah Alexander sworn.

Examined by Mr. Bolland.

Q. You live at No. 61, Fetter-lane, do you not?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. I have lived there ever since last September.

Q. Do you know Mr. M'Rae?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he lodge with you?

A. Not with me—he lodged on the same floor that I did.

Q. Is he a married or single man?

A. A married man; he had his wife with him.

Q. Do you recollect any thing passing in February last, with regard to Mr. M'Rae?

A. Yes, on a Saturday night.

Q. What Saturday night?

A. The 19th of February.

Q. Where were you at that time?

A. In my own room; he came into my room and brought it and gave it to his wife.

Q. His wife was in your room?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he bring home and give to his wife?

A. A small parcel; he gave it to his wife and told her it was of value and to take care of it.

Q. Did he say any thing else to her?

A. Nothing else.

Q. Did you see any thing more of that parcel on that night?

A. Not that night. On Sunday the 20th, he went out about ten o'clock, between ten and eleven.

Q. Did he return again and when?

A. He returned before twelve.

Q. Did he bring any thing in with him?

A. He brought two coats and two opera hats.

Q. Did he bring the two coats and two opera hats open or inclosed in any thing?

A. They were in a bundle.

Q. Did you see them?

A. Yes.

Q. What sort of coats were they?

A. They were very dark blue, done with braiding—Officers coats.

Q. What coats were they?

A. Like Officers coats.

Q. What was the braiding?

A. It was to ornament the coats.

Q. What was it done in?

A. In flowers.

Q. Of worsted or silk?

A. Of worsted.

Q. What do you mean by opera hats?

A. Shutting together.

Q. Did you remark how the coats were lined?

A. One was lined with white silk.

Q. Were the coats alike, or did one appear of more rank than the other?

A. One appeared of more rank than the other; one was better than the other, and so was one of the hats.

Q. Were the hats plain or ornamented in any way?

A. One was black and the other ornamented on one side.

Q. What with?

A. With a brass plate or something of that kind at the end, and a gold tassel at each corner.

Q. Upon his producing them did he do any thing with them?

A. He put them on and asked me if he looked like an Officer, and I said yes, he did.

Q. What did he then do?

A. He went out again and came home again before one and brought some white ribband with him.

Q. Did you see him do any thing, or hear him say any thing about that white ribband?

A. Yes, he wanted two cockades to be made.

Q. To whom did he apply to make those cockades?

A. To his wife—they were to be made round.

Q. Was any thing said to him either by you or his wife as to the purpose, to which they should be applied?

A. His wife asked him what they were for, and what he was going to do with them, and he said they were to deceive the flats.

Q. Did you see what he did with the cockades?

A. He put them into his pocket and took the coats in his hand, and went out saying he must be at Billingsgate to go down to Gravesend by a quarter before two.

Q. What did he do with the hats?

A. He put them into the bundle.

Q. He then went away, did he?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you see Mr. M'Rae again?

A. About the same time the next day, about half-past one, or a quarter before two, I met him in Cursitor-street.

Q. Did he say any thing to you?

A. He gave me a shilling and asked me to go to the cook's shop for his dinner.

Q. Did any thing else pass in Cursitor-street between you?

A. No, not then, I went for his dinner.

Q. How was he dressed then?

A. Just the same as he went out—in his own cloaths.

Q. Had he any thing with him?

A. A bundle.

Q. Was that the same bundle he took out with him apparently?

A. He brought home one coat and one hat.

Q. Did you see the contents of that bundle when he got home?

A. Yes, the best coat and the best hat he brought home with him.

Q. Did he tell you where he had been?

A. He said he had slept at Northfleet, but he had the appearance of not having been a bed at all.

Q. He appeared tired?

A. He appeared very tired.

Q. Did he bring the cockades back?

A. Yes, he brought the cockades back in his pocket, the ribband was taken off.

Q. By whom?

A. By his wife; and the paper they were quilled on was thrown into the fire and the ribband made use of for strings, they had not buckram, and they made up the cockades on paper.

Q. Was any thing done with the coat?

A. They took the white lining out of the coat, and carried it to the Dyers to be dyed black.

Q. They said they should take it to the Dyers to be dyed black?

A. I know they took it out of the house to the Dyers, and the coat he wore.

Q. Before this how long had Mr. M'Rae lodged with you?

A. He lodged there before I went, he went about a week before me, I went in September.

Q. From September to February had you lodged together in that house?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you been acquainted with him and his wife?

A. Never before that, but at that house we kept but one fire; coals were very dear, and we lived a good deal together there.

Q. Had you any means of judging Mr. M'Rae's circumstances as to poverty or wealth?

Q. He was poor, he never had any money except it was a shilling or an eighteen penny piece.

Q. After this expedition to Northfleet, how did he appear in circumstances?

A. Oh, better; he had a L10. note and a L1. note, and the day before he left his lodgings he had three L2. notes.

Q. Do you mean before he finally left his lodgings?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. The second of March I think it was, the second or third to the best of my knowledge.

Q. Do you know of his purchasing any new cloaths for himself?

A. Yes, on the Sunday he bought a new coat, dark green, with yellow buttons.

Q. What Sunday was that?

A. Not the 20th.

Q. The Sunday after his return?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he buy any other articles of dress?

A. A new hat.

Q. On what day did he buy that?

A. The Monday.

Q. Was that the Monday after his return?

A. The Monday after he had bought his new coat.

Q. Did he tell you whether it had been a successful expedition to him?

A. He said he was to have L.50 for what he had done.

Q. Had you at any time any conversation with him about the nature of his journey?

A. No, never. He wished when he went away that it might be kept a secret where he was gone to; he did not wish any body to know where he was going to; he seemed very much agitated, and I desired he would not tell me that I might not tell any body else, and I did not know then.

Mr. Philip Foxall sworn.

Examined by Mr. Bolland.

Q. You keep the Rose Inn at Dartford?

A. I do.

Q. Look at that letter, and tell me whether you received it at any time, and when, from the person whose name it bears?

A. I did.

Q. I see it purports to be from Mr. Sandom?

A. It was from Mr. Sandom.

Q. Did you know Mr. Sandom before that time?

A. I did, by his frequently having chaises ordered from my house?

Q. Did you execute that order?

A. Yes.

Q. And sent a chaise to bring the party to Dartford?

A. Yes; and I had horses ready, as the letter advised me.

Q. Had you sent chaises on a similar message before?

A. Yes I had, by messages, and by letter; and he also came down there in the chaise.

Lord Ellenborough. By a message in writing coming to you?

A. Yes sometimes; this came by a boy.

Q. You do not know his hand-writing?

A. No I do not.

The Letter was read as follows:

SIR,

Please to send me over immediately a chaise and pair to bring back to Dartford, and have four good horses ready to go on to London with all expedition.

Yours, &c. R. SANDOM, Northfleet.

Monday Morning. Addressed, Mr. Foxall, Rose Inn, Dartford.

Mr. Bolland. In consequence of that you sent a chaise to Northfleet?

A. I did.

Q. Did you see the chaise on its return from Northfleet?

A. Yes; the chaise drove furiously into my yard with two gentlemen and Mr. Sandom, with white cockades in their hats.

Q. What sort of hats were they?

A. They were very large cocked hats.

Q. Were they flat hats; what are called opera hats?

A. I did not see; indeed they did not take them off.

Q. Were they quite plain hats?

A. Yes, with the exception of white paper or ribband, I cannot say which.

Q. How were the gentlemen dressed?

A. In blue clothes I think; but there were such a number of persons hurrying into the yard, that I had not an opportunity of examining; the four horses were ready; I gave them another chaise, as I feared the wheels of this were not very well greased.

Q. Had you any conversation with Sandom, or either of the gentlemen with him?

A. I said to Mr. Sandom, "Will those gentlemen breakfast;" he said, "No, they have breakfasted at my house, they have been in an open boat all night, and are very much fatigued." I then asked him a question, "Who are they?" he said he did not know, but they had news of the utmost consequence, and begged I would let them have good horses.

Q. Did any thing else pass between you and Mr. Sandom?

A. No, further than my asking where to; and they said to Westminster. I told the boys I supposed they were going to the Admiralty.

Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Pell.

Q. What time was it you received the note?

A. I think the note must have been received about seven o'clock.

Q. In the morning?

A. Yes; the boy was unacquainted with the town, and he went to the house opposite with the note, and a man pointed to me as I was standing at the door.

Q. At what time did the chaise come with Mr. Sandom and those gentlemen?

A. I think it could not exceed an hour; I was quite surprised at the chaise coming back in so short a time.

Q. What is Mr. Sandom, do you know him?

A. I only know him from his occasionally having horses to take him to Northfleet; I understood he lived there.

Q. How long had he lived there?

A. That I really cannot say; I think he had been in the habits of occasionally having horses from me for nine months before that time.

Foxall Baldry sworn.

Examined by Mr. Bolland.

Q. You are a post-boy at the Rose at Dartford?

A. I ride occasionally.

Q. Did you ride on the morning of the 21st?

A. I did.

Q. Do you recollect a chaise coming from Northfleet to your house?

A. Yes I do.

Q. Who was in that chaise do you recollect?

A. I have seen one of the gentlemen since; I did not know Mr. Sandom at the time personally.

Q. Was Mr. Sandom one of those persons?

A. Yes he was.

Q. Do you know the other two of those persons?

A. I do not.

Q. Did you drive either of the pair of horses that took those gentlemen to town?

A. I drove the leaders.

Q. Did they give you any orders as to which way they were to go?

A. Just as we were coming to Shooter's Hill, Mr. Sandom got out of the chaise with one of those other gentlemen, walked some little distance, and when he came back I was altering my harness; and he beckoned me, and said, My lads we do not want you to distress your horses up this hill, but when you get up you may get on a little: He asked what the gates were, and said, I shall give you twelve shillings a-piece for driving; but as to saying to what part I did not know at the time; my fellow-servant at the wheel ordered me to go over London Bridge, down Lombard Street, along Cheapside, over Blackfriar's Bridge, down the New Cut, and when I was in sight of the Marsh gate I was ordered to stop.

Q. Did you take that course?

A. I did.

Q. How was Mr. Sandom drest?

A. Why I really cannot say, but I think he had a brown great coat on.

Q. How were the other two persons dressed?

A. They were in blue great coats I think.

Q. Do you recollect what sort of hats they had?

A. They had round hats when they left me.

Q. What sort of hats had they when they got into the chaise?

A. They had military hats on.

Q. Was there any ornament in the hats?

A. A paper or ribband, I cannot tell which.

Q. Had the horses any ornaments upon them?

A. Yes, laurels.

Q. Do you know by whose orders they were put on?

A. No, I do not.

Q. You were near the Marsh gate you say?

A. Yes, I could see the Marsh-gate when I pulled up.

Q. Did the parties get out there?

A. Yes.

Q. How were they dressed then?

A. They had taken off their military hats and put round ones on, and they walked away.

Q. At what hour in the morning was it when you got to the Marsh gate?

A. I should think about eleven o'clock; I cannot say for half an hour.

Q. Did Mr. Sandom give you any thing?

A. Not at that time.

Q. Did he pay for the chaise?

A. He did not, not there.

Q. Has he since given you any thing?

A. He asked us what house we stopped at, I told him the Bull at Kent Street end, and he came to us there, and gave my fellow-servant a one pound note, and the remainder in silver for him and me together.

Q. Did he pay for the chaise?

A. He did not pay for the chaise.

Q. Did either of the other two return with him?

A. They did not.

Mr. Francis Baily called again.

Examined by Mr. Bolland.

Q. In consequence of enquiries that had been made, did Mr. Holloway attend the Committee of the Stock Exchange?

A. He did.

Q. Did Mr. Lyte attend also?

A. Afterwards he did with Mr. Holloway; first Mr. Holloway came, and denied having any knowledge of the transaction.

Q. Did you see him again at any other time?

A. Yes, very near the time of the bill being found; I cannot tell whether before or after that, he came with Mr. Lyte and confessed that he was the person who had planned that plot, or participated in it.

Q. State what he said as nearly as you can recollect?

A. He said that he had done it with a view to obtain money by a rise in the public funds; and Mr. Lyte stated, that he was one of the parties who had been employed by Mr. M'Rae, at Mr. Holloway's suggestion; at Holloway's or M'Rae's.

Q. Did either of them say who were the actors in the plot?

A. Mr. Lyte said that he and Sandom and M'Rae rode in the post chaise from Northfleet to Dartford, and afterwards from Dartford to London.

Lord Ellenborough. In whose presence did Lyte state this?

A. Mr. Wakefield was present, Mr. Lavie was present, and a Mr. Chaumette.

Q. Was Holloway present then?

A. Yes he was; they both came together.

Q. What Lyte stated was in the presence of Holloway?

A. Exactly so. Holloway stated that he did it with a view of obtaining money, by the rise in the funds.

Q. Did he state any thing more?

A. He stated that he was not aware of the serious turn it would take; that he did not contemplate it in that point of view at first; but finding that it had taken so serious a turn, he had come forward and confessed it, in the hope that the Stock Exchange would not pursue it to extremities, and carry on the action against him, or the prosecution: He was asked whether he had any connection with Lord Cochrane, Cochrane Johnstone, or Mr. Butt, which he denied.

Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Pell.

Q. Do you know what it was that immediately led to Mr. Holloway's making this communication to the Stock Exchange?

A. No I do not; nothing more than the publicity of the measures which they were taking to follow up the parties, I believe.

Q. Did you not learn at the time from Mr. Holloway during this conversation, and from Mr. Lyte, that M'Rae had offered to come forward for a very considerable sum of money and state his knowledge of the transaction?

A. That had been stated before publicly I believe in Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's letter.

Q. I ask as to the conversation at the time, do you recollect whether or not at the time of this interview between Holloway, Lyte, and the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, any thing was said about M'Rae's having offered to be a witness for a large sum of money?

A. There was certainly something said, but whether it was mentioned first by the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, or by Mr. Holloway, I cannot recollect.

Q. Did not Mr. Holloway state, that in order to prevent the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange paying a large sum of money for the communication that would be paid in fact for nothing, he would come forward and state the part of the transaction in which he was concerned?

A. I believe he did.

Q. It was understood by the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, was it not, that that communication of M'Rae's was supposed to extend to my Lord Cochrane's part in the transaction?

Mr. Gurney. What was understood cannot be asked.

Mr. Serjeant Pell. I ask as to what was said at the time, was it not said that M'Rae's communication was to affect Lord Cochrane's share in the transaction?

A. I do not recollect that that was stated.

Q. I think you stated that Mr. Holloway or Mr. Lyte distinctly asserted, that this business of theirs had nothing to do with that in which Lord Cochrane was concerned?

A. He did.

Q. Do you know what was the sum that it was stated M'Rae was to be a witness for, was not it so large a sum as L10,000?

A. That sum had been stated in a letter which passed?

Q. Was it not stated in the conversation?

A. I believe it was; but the subject of the communication of M'Rae was so little attended to by the Committee, that it never entered their heads that any such sum should be paid.

Q. Was there any letter, or any writing of Mr. Holloway's produced at the time?

A. I really cannot fix my memory.

Q. Have you any recollection of any letter of his having been produced at the time?

A. Certainly none that I can recollect.

Q. Do you not know that Mr. Holloway had written a letter to the Committee of the Stock Exchange upon this business?

A. I really do not know it; it may possibly have been.

Cross-examined by Mr. Park.

Q. This person Holloway was asked whether he had any connection with Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, and Mr. Butt, and he denied it?

A. He did.

Q. Did he not, in the same conversation, deny that he had any connection, not only with those persons, but De Berenger also?

A. Certainly.

Q. That you dropped?

A. Yes, I did not mean to drop it.

Cross-examined by Mr. Alley.

Q. At the time this conversation passed between you and Holloway, M'Rae was not there?

A. He was not.

Q. It was all in his absence?

A. It was in his absence, it was in Mr. Lavie's office.

Lord Ellenborough. The evidence of course can operate only against Holloway and Lyte, who were there.

Mr. Joseph Fearn sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. You are a stock broker?

A. I am.

Q. How long have you known Mr. Butt?

A. Several years.

Q. Were you introduced by him to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and to Lord Cochrane.

A. Yes.

Q. In the month of February last, were you employed either by Mr. Butt or Lord Cochrane, or Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, to make any purchases for them in the funds?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. At that time where was your office of business?

A. No. 10, Cornhill.

Q. Was it No. 10 or No. 86, about the 12th of February?

A. I believe it was No. 86.

Q. Had Mr. Butt an office?

A. He had somewhere about that time an office in Sweetings Alley.

Q. From the 12th of February to the 19th of February, did you see Mr. Butt daily?

A. I think I did.

Q. At your office or at his?

A. Both.

Q. Did you generally see him alone, or in company with either of the other persons?

A. Frequently all three together.

Q. You mean Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, Lord Cochrane, and Mr. Butt?

A. Yes.

Q. When you did business for Lord Cochrane, did you in all instances take orders from him or from any person for him?

A. Sometimes from him, and sometimes from Mr. Butt.

Q. After you had acted for him upon the orders of Mr. Butt, did he recognize those orders?

A. Always.

Q. From the 12th till the 19th, did you make various purchases and sales for them?

A. I did.

Q. On the evening of the 19th, what balance had he in his hand; Lord Cochrane's transactions I believe were only in omnium?

A. No.

Q. The amount was L139,000, was it not?

A. Yes.

Q. That is to say, that he had that balance of omnium?

A. Yes.

Q. What balance of omnium had Mr. Cochrane Johnstone on that day?

A. L120,000.

Q. One hundred and twenty, or one hundred and thirty thousand?

A. I have not drawn out the balance here.

Q. What was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's consol account on that day?

A. L100,000.

Q. How much had Mr. Butt of omnium at the same time?

A. I think about L160,000.

Q. Is not the omnium L130,000.

A. I should think more than that; I believe it was L154,000.

Q. How much his consols?

A. L168,000.

Q. On the morning of the 21st of February, did you sell them all?

A. I did.

Q. Omnium and consols and all?

A. Yes.

Q. On the morning of Monday the 21st, did you remove to any other office than that you had before occupied?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Where was that office?

A. No. 5, in Shorter's Court.

Q. Is that close to the side door of the Stock Exchange?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. How many rooms were there?

A. Three.

Q. Had you one?

A. I had one and a small closet; Mr. Butt had another up stairs with Mr. Johnstone and my Lord Cochrane, and the ground floor was occupied by Mr. Lance.

Q. Was he a clerk of yours, or employed by them?

A. He was employed by them.

Q. Had you taken that office, or had it been taken for you?

A. Mr. Johnstone had taken his with one room or two rooms, I am not sure which.

Q. Had the office been taken for you, or had you yourself gone and taken it?

A. They had taken those two rooms, I believe, without intending to take any more; but as I was not pleasantly situated, and was rather too far from business, I wished to have an office there, if they could procure it; several of my friends went to look at it, and finding it convenient, I requested them to take the whole of it, if they could, in order that I might be accommodated.

Lord Ellenborough. Whom do you mean by friends, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

A. No, other persons for whom I did business.

Mr. Gurney. When was this done?

A. In the course of the week preceding.

Lord Ellenborough. When you say Mr. Cochrane Johnstone took a room for you, do you mean at this place?

Q. They had taken those two rooms, I believe, for themselves, without reference to my having any thing to do there.

Mr. Gurney. Did they afterwards take a third?

A. They afterwards took the whole that is in my possession.

Q. You have all of them in your possession now?

A. I have.

Q. On the morning of Monday the 21st of February, how soon did you see either of those gentlemen?

A. They were in the habit of being at the office as early as I myself attended.

Q. At your office in Cornhill?

A. Yes.

Q. How early did you see them at your office that morning?

A. I believe at about ten, or a little past.

Q. Whom did you then see.

A. I think, Mr. Butt and Mr. Johnstone.

Q. Are you positive upon that subject?

A. I am sure they were both there in the course of the morning.

Q. Are you positive whether any body else was with them?

A. No, I think nobody else.

Q. Business begins in the Stock Exchange I believe at ten o'clock.

A. Yes.

Q. At what price had consols for time left off on Saturday?

A. I can hardly say.

Q. Did they open on Monday morning pretty much as they had left off on Saturday evening?

A. I think they did.

Q. How soon after you had been in the Stock Exchange, did any good news come?

A. I think it was near eleven.

Q. What news had arrived?

A. I cannot take upon me to say; I only knew in general, with perhaps every body in the house in business, that there was some news, but we rarely enquire into particulars of news, it is enough that facts are produced.

Q. You were doing a good deal of business at that moment, and must have heard something of it; did you hear any thing about a messenger arriving at Dover?

A. I have heard so much since that, I cannot take upon myself to swear what I heard, whether that a messenger had arrived at Dover, or that Bonaparte was killed, but one of the two certainly.

Q. Did you hear that Bonaparte was killed?

A. Yes.

A Juryman. Were those gentlemen with you at the time the news arrived?

A. They were—not my Lord Cochrane.

Mr. Gurney. Had the good news an immediate effect upon the funds?

A. Yes, it had.

Q. After the funds had begun to rise, did you sell?

A. I began to sell before the rise took place.

Q. What was the first price you sold at?

A. Omnium at twenty-nine and a quarter.

Q. That was the first price you sold at?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you mean to say that omnium opened that morning at twenty-nine and a quarter?

A. I rather think it did.

Q. However, the first price you sold at was twenty-nine and a quarter?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your next price?

A. L29-3/8, 29-1/2, and 30-1/2.

Q. At what did you sell the consols?

A. Beginning at 70-5/8ths, 71-1/4, 71-7/8ths, 72, and 72-1/4.

Q. In what manner did you receive instructions for these various sales; they were sold in different parcels?

A. Yes, I came frequently to my office from the Stock Exchange to Mr. Butt and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.

Q. And you reported to them and received orders?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you receive notes likewise?

A. I was in the constant habit of doing so.

Q. Did you do so that morning?

A. I am not quite certain; but I am in the constant habit of receiving notes from them.

Q. Do you remember hearing in the course of the morning, of a post chaise coming through the city?

A. I did.

Q. Did that occasion a still further rise in the funds?

A. I do not know.

Q. Before business left off, the funds fell again?

A. They did.

Lord Ellenborough. About what o'clock did the funds fall?

A. I believe about two.

Mr. Gurney. It was discovered at that time that the good news was not true?

A. It certainly was not believed.

Q. Have you an account of the different purchases from the 12th to the 21st, taken from your books?

A. I have.

The Witness delivered in the Accounts.

Mr. Serjeant Best. From what are those taken?

A. From my books.

Mr. Gurney. Have you carried those accounts down to the 5th of March?

A. I have.

Q. Has Mr. Baily, also had access to your books, to take the different balances?

A. He has.

Mr. Gurney. The reading of this would not be very intelligible, a sight of it perhaps would be the best thing.

Lord Ellenborough. We must have the sum total or the results.

Mr. Gurney. I will give your Lordship the result after the examination of several stock brokers; Mr. Baily has abstracted the whole.

Mr. Serjeant Best. I shall carry back the accounts considerably earlier; that should be understood. If I put in accounts of an earlier date, it must not be considered that I am giving evidence in so doing.

Mr. Gurney. I take it the same, as if my learned friend cross examined Mr. Fearn upon that subject.

Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best.

Q. You have spoken of these gentlemen engaging in stock transactions, you have been carried back no further than February the 8th, they had all three of them bought to an enormous amount long before that time—had they not?

A. Certainly.

Q. And as to sales, had they not sold very large sums, long antecedent to the month of February?

A. Oh yes.

Q. Can you state as to my Lord Cochrane, for instance, had he not sold hundreds of thousands before that time?

A. Yes.

Q. I would ask you, did he not from time to time, down to that time, continue to be selling large sums?

A. Yes.

Q. With respect to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone—on the 10th or 11th of February, had he not a balance of L100,000.

Mr. Gurney. To save my learned friend time, my account shews every day's purchases, and every day's sales from that time.

Mr. Serjeant Best. Be so good as to look at that printed paper, and tell me whether that is not a correct statement of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's account with you.

A. I cannot tell from this book.

Mr. Gurney. I believe the accounts will agree to a farthing, from the time they each begin.

Mr. Serjeant Best. Then the larger sales will appear upon this paper without troubling his Lordship to take them down upon his notes; there were very large sales for all of them several days precedent to the 21st.

A. Yes, there were.

Q. I believe they began these speculations as early as the month of November, did they not?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Butt managed principally—very much for these gentlemen—for Lord Cochrane particularly?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Lord Cochrane, you have told us, was not there on the morning of the 21st?

A. No, he was not.

Q. For a great many days, I believe I may say months, had you not been directed to sell their stock whenever it should so rise, that you could get one per cent?

A. Yes.

Q. You have told us that on the morning of the 21st, you began to sell before the news came?

A. Yes.

A Juryman. He said before the rise took place.

Mr. Serjeant Best. You found when you came there in the morning, that the stocks had got to such a pitch as that you could sell consistently with the orders they had given you?

A. It was so.

Lord Ellenborough. At what hour was that?

A. Ten o'clock.

Mr. Serjeant Best. Did you not sell out very large sums before either of them came near the place that morning?

A. I think I had began to sell before they came, but I cannot say positively.

Q. Had you not sold to a considerable amount, if you can tax your memory with it, or refresh your memory by looking at any book?

A. I think I had.

Q. Can you tell us to what amount you had sold before any of them came?—I do not ask to a few shillings, we deal in thousands here.

A. I cannot positively say—I had done much before I saw either of them, for I was in the habit of doing twenty or thirty and reporting to them.

Q. Do you mean thousands?

A. Yes.

Q. You think you had sold considerably before you saw them?

A. I think I had.

Lord Ellenborough. Cannot you fix the time of your sale?

Mr. Gurney. I shall prove the prices every half hour.

Mr. Serjeant Best. I am not at all conversant in those things, never having speculated in stock at all, but I am told it is the practice sometimes to sell stock which the persons have not to transfer?

A. I have heard of such things.

Q. Consequently, if I had been at the Stock Exchange that morning, and had found the Omnium up at 34, which I believe it was that morning——

Mr. Bolland. No, thirty two.

Mr. Serjeant Best. If I had been at the Stock Exchange that morning, and had found the Omnium up at 32, and had known that the good news must soon turn out to be all invention, I might have sold if I had liked, a million of stock, according to the practice of the Stock Exchange, though I did not happen to have a sixpence.

A. It certainly might have been done.

Q. Is it not the practice for a man who wishes to gamble in the funds, to sell stock which he has not, when he thinks they will fall?

A. I know it is done.

Q. A man who thinks the stocks may fall, may sell stock he has not, to any person who thinks they may rise?

A. It certainly is done.

Q. Did either my Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone or Mr. Butt, make any such sales on that day to your knowledge, you having stated you were their Broker—do you know of their having sold on that day any stock which they had not purchased before?

Lord Ellenborough. Are you not putting this gentleman in a situation of peril?

Mr. Serjeant Best. If he admits it.

Lord Ellenborough. Why should you place him in such a situation to deny or affirm? This does not affect the charge.

Mr. Serjeant Best. I ask whether it was done by those persons?

Lord Ellenborough. But that would be done through a broker.

Mr. Taddy. If your Lordship will allow me to suggest on behalf of the witness, that in an action for the penalties, the question would be whether he knew they were possessed of the stock, or not, and this would go to make out his knowledge.

Mr. Serjeant Best. Do you know whether either of those persons on that day sold any stock or omnium, which they had not purchased before?

Lord Ellenborough. That question must be limited to any thing in which you have not had participation in the way of sale, otherwise you may criminate yourself—having given you that caution, you may do as you please.

A. They did not.

Lord Ellenborough. That is not imputed to them.

Mr. Serjeant Best. The use I mean to make of it I have no objection to state now.

Lord Ellenborough. No, you need not, I leave it entirely to your judgment.

Mr. Serjeant Best. I think you told us before, those gentlemen told you, whenever the stock rose to one per cent, above what they had bought at, to sell.

A. Yes, they did.

Q. With respect to the taking of this office, when did you first see it?

A. In the course of the week anterior to the 21st of February.

Q. Mr. Butt had before an office in Sweeting's Alley.

A. Yes.

Q. He found that an inconvenient one and he took these rooms in Shorter's Court, he and Mr. Johnstone?

A. Yes.

Q. Those were taken for Mr. Butt, were they not?

A. I believe so.

Q. I believe you went to the rooms as to the rooms of Mr. Butt?

A. I did.

Q. I believe you thought upon seeing Mr. Butt's room, that the situation was a very convenient one for yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. And therefore you suggested, did you not, that you should like a room in the same house?

A. I think I did.

Q. In consequence of this suggestion did not Mr. Butt give up to you the room he had taken for himself, and take another in the same house for himself?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And the room being taken in this manner, you put up your name "Fearn, Stock Broker."

A. On the Monday.

Q. Did you do that at your own idea or was it suggested to you by any body?

A. It was the same transparent blind I had at my former office, which I removed and put in the window.

Q. Your name in gold letters?

A. In black letters.

Q. You took your furniture?

A. The rooms were furnished.

Q. I believe after thus finding your Customers liked the situation, you desired Mr. Johnstone to purchase the lease of the house for you.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Was that before or after the 21st?

A. I think after.

Lord Ellenborough. Then that does not apply.

Mr. Serjeant Best. You had taken it before the 21st and got into possession on the 21st.

A. Yes.

Q. One of your reasons for taking it was that some of your customers were particularly pleased with it.

A. Yes.

Q. That was on the Thursday in the week before.

A. I believe it might be.

Q. You have told us you did not see Lord Cochrane on that morning, how many days previously to that had you seen him?

A. I think I saw him on the Saturday.

Q. You are not quite certain of that?

A. No, I am not.

Q. Does it appear whether he bought any thing on that day.

Mr. Gurney. It appears from the account that he bought 20,000 and sold 17,000.

Mr. Serjeant Best. You have told us that all those three persons, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, Lord Cochrane, and Mr. Butt, were very large speculators; did they always speculate the same way, or on the contrary, when one bought did not the other very often sell?

A. It has been the case.

Q. Has not that happened often, several times?

A. Yes it has, several times.

Re-examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. On that day they all sold?

A. Yes they did.

Q. They all acted together on that day.

A. Yes they did.

Q. Where did Lord Cochrane reside on the 21st of February?

A. I do not know.

Q. How soon after did you know his residence in Green-Street?

A. Not at all until the printed paper of the Stock Exchange came out.

Q. Did you know that Lord Cochrane resided at the time in Green-Street?

A. Only by report.

Q. Not from Lord Cochrane?

A. No.

A Juryman. You say they did not sell any stock but what they had before purchased, do you mean such as they had bought and paid for, or only such as they had contracted for the purchase of, was it actually bought and transferred to them?

Mr. Taddy. That is the very thing I have taken the liberty of suggesting to your Lordship.

Lord Ellenborough. He has before said they had not sold any of which they had not become the proprietors before, so that he is predicating of them that they had purchased this, for they could not otherwise become proprietors.

A Juryman. Is it not a purchase for time altogether, are they not all time bargains both the omnium and the stock?

A. This is one of those questions I cannot answer.

Lord Ellenborough. Gentlemen, he objects to answering the questions as it may criminate him, but the offence charged may have an effect upon the funds, in which not only these individuals are concerned, but every person who has transactions in Stock, the persons belonging to the Court of Chancery, who have to purchase or sell, may be influenced by an improper elevation or depression of the funds, that does not affect the question as to the crime charged upon this record, you will consider Mr. Gurney whether you will persist in the questions, because this man demurs to the answering the questions, being a party in the transaction.

Mr. Gurney. You do decline answering that question?

A. Yes I do.

Mr. Robert Hichens sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. I believe you are a Stock-Broker?

A. Yes I am.

Q. Have you for some years past known Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

A. Yes.

Q. I believe you have not done business for him till the present year?

A. No.

Q. From the 8th of February to the 19th did you make various purchases for him.

A. Yes I did.

Q. At the leaving off of the business on Saturday what was the balance.

A. L250,000.

Q. That was all omnium.

A. Yes it was.

Q. Have you taken from your books a statement of the business you did?

A. I have memorandums that will enable me to answer any questions.

Q. Has Mr. Baily from your books taken an account of purchases and sales?

A. I furnished Mr. Baily with a copy of it.

Mr. Gurney. Then through Mr. Baily I will give all the particulars of it.

Lord Ellenborough. Whether purchased with money or no they take upon themselves the disposition of that fund, shewing that they had an interest in the rise and fall of the funds, and that they sold on the Monday and gained a profit.

Mr. Gurney. Yes my Lord. On Monday morning the 21st how soon did you see Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

A. I think between ten and eleven I cannot say exactly.

Q. Where did you see him?

A. I think I met him as I was coming out of the Stock Exchange.

Q. How near ten or eleven?

A. I think it must have been about a quarter before eleven but I cannot say positively.

Q. Did you receive any directions from him as to what you were to do with respect to the omnium?

A. I received an order from him on the Saturday, to sell L50,000 at one per cent. profit, and that I had sold before I saw him.

Q. At what had you sold it?

A. At 29.

Q. Did he give you any further instructions what to do with the remainder?

A. He then ordered me to sell a certain quantity at an eighth per cent more.

Q. In short did you sell the whole of it that day by his directions?

A. I did.

Q. At what prices?

A. At 29, 29-1/8, 29-1/2, 30-3/4, and 30-7/8.

Lord Ellenborough. At those different prices did you dispose of the whole which Mr. Cochrane Johnstone held on that 21st.

A. Yes.

Q. At one or other of those prices.

A. Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. Topping.

Q. Can you tell me what was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's balance on the 15th?

A. I think L465,000.

Q. On the 16th how much was that reduced?

A. On the 16th I sold L200,000.

Q. Reducing the balance of course to L265,000.?

A. Yes.

Q. Upon the 17th what did you sell?

A. On the 17th I bought L50,000. and sold L115,000. reducing the balance to L200,000.; on that Saturday I bought L50,000.

Q. And you had his directions upon that Saturday to sell at one per Cent.?

A. To sell L50,000. at one per Cent. profit.

Q. And you had done that before you saw Mr. Cochrane Johnstone at all?

A. Yes, I had.

Mr. William Smallbone, sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. You are a Stock-broker, I believe?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you shortly before the 21st of February make any purchases for Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

A. Yes.

Q. You had made two purchases only, I believe, the 12th and the 14th?

A. Yes, only two purchases of L20,000. each.

Q. When did you sell them out?

A. On the 21st of February.

Q. At what did you sell them out.

A. 28-1/8, 29-1/4, and 29-1/2.

Q. By whose order did you sell them out?

A. I sold Mr. Johnstone's by his order; I sold Mr. Butt's by his order.

Q. Was that order from Mr. Cochrane Johnstone received on the Monday, or before the Monday?

A. In part it was received on the Monday, but a part on the Saturday.

Q. You had also, I believe, made purchases in Omnium for Mr. Butt?

A. I had.

Q. To the amount of L40,000 I believe?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that L40,000 left as a balance on Saturday the 19th?

A. Yes.

Q. And all sold out on the Monday?

A. Yes, all sold on the 21st.

Q. Have you given Mr. Baily a statement from your books of that?

A. Yes.

Q. And of the prices at which it was sold?

A. Yes.

Lord Ellenborough. Now what is the result of all these accounts?

Mr. Gurney. I am going to call one person more, and then I will give your Lordship the totals.

Q. You had bought for Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, L40,000, and on that 21st you sold it all?

A. Yes.

Q. You had bought for Mr. Butt L40,000, and on the Monday you sold it all?

A. I sold it all on Monday.

Lord Ellenborough. If he sells all the sum is immaterial, if you prove that he sold all of the several amounts, it furnishes a constructive motive for what has passed.

Cross-examined by Mr. Scarlett.

Q. When was it you had purchased the L40,000 for Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

A. On the 12th and the 14th.

Q. Did Mr. Johnstone send you the order to purchase it?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it upon his own account?

A. No, it was upon his own account, the order was from him.

Q. But not upon his own account?

A. No, it was not.

Q. Was the whole L40,000 purchased at two different times?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. You stated to my learned Friend, that he gave you an order to sell a part of it on Saturday?

A. Yes, he gave me an order on Saturday.

Q. What was it?

A. To sell at a quarter profit if I had an opportunity.

Q. I take for granted that opportunity did not occur on the Saturday?

A. No, it did not.

Q. Otherwise you would have sold it on the Saturday?

A. Certainly.

Q. On the Monday you say he gave you an order as to the other L200,000?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you sold the first L20,000 before you saw him on the Monday?

A. Yes, I had.

Q. At what time in the morning had you sold it?

A. I think about half past ten.

Q. When did you first see Mr. Johnstone?

A. I saw him soon after I had sold out, between ten and eleven.

Q. His order had been confined to L20,000 on the Saturday?

A. Not exactly to L20,000; if I saw an opportunity of selling any at a quarter profit I was to sell.

Q. When you saw him on the Monday, did he then order you to sell the remainder?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you sell it immediately.

A. As soon as an opportunity offered to sell it at a profit.

Q. Was that early in the day?

A. Yes, about eleven I believe.

Q. When was it that you first heard any rumour of good news in the morning?

A. Soon after the market opened, between ten and eleven.

Q. You say you had purchased L40,000 for Mr. Butt?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. The 12th, 14th, and 18th of February.

Q. Different sums on those days?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you any order from Mr. Butt as to the sales?

A. To sell whenever I saw an opportunity of selling at a quarter profit, or three eighths as the circumstances might allow.

Q. How long have you known Mr. Butt?

A. About six months.

Q. Had you had any transactions with him before in that way?

A. Yes.

Q. He had occasionally employed you?

A. Yes, he had.

Q. Who introduced you to Mr. Johnstone?

A. Mr. Johnstone was in Mr. Butt's office when I first saw him there in Sweeting's Alley.

Q. It was through Mr. Butt you became acquainted with Mr. Johnstone?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. If any person had known that this news was false, and had been disposed to be a bear, he might have made his fortune by selling that day, might not he?

A. Certainly.

Q. By selling for account?

A. Certainly.

Q. You had no directions from either of those Gentlemen to sell more than they had bought that day?

A. No I had not.

Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson.

Q. You stated to my learned Friend that you had bought large quantities of Omnium on account of this Gentleman, had any of it been paid for.

A. Shall I answer that question my Lord?

Lord Ellenborough. If the Witness looks at me I must tell him he need not answer any question that implicates him in a crime.

Mr. Richardson. You decline answering that question?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. You will decline answering any other questions that you think implicate yourself.—Were any of those purchases real purchases for stock transferred, or on account?

A. It was for Omnium—that cannot be transferred.

Q. You spoke of Consols?

A. No this was Omnium.

Q. Was it all bought or paid for, or on account?

A. I decline answering that question.

Q. With respect to the Consols had any of them been paid for or transferred?

A. I had no Consol account.

Mr. Richardson. I will state to your Lordship the object I have in that; I submit it is incumbent upon the prosecutors to prove in support of the allegations of their indictment, which charge a conspiracy for the purpose of enabling Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and the other gentlemen, to sell divers large sums of Government Securities, and so on, that they had an interest in those Government Securities.

Lord Ellenborough. That applies only to the two first counts.

Mr. Gurney. If I leave my case imperfect, my learned friends will take advantage of it.

Lord Ellenborough. It does not apply to the third count, certainly there is a particularity which is quite unnecessary in the others; it states that by certain devices and contrivances they endeavoured to raise the price of the funds, to the prejudice of His Majesty's subjects, to an undue elevation, and so on, there is enough to let in the general evidence.

Mr. Gurney. And there is enough in the first count, independently of the sales.

Mr. Richardson. The first count states this to be to enable these gentlemen to sell Omnium, and Three per Cent. Consols, at larger prices than they would otherwise have sold for; I submit to your Lordship, that in support of that it is for the prosecutors to shew that they had such to sell?

Lord Ellenborough. That will be an observation at the close if they leave their proof imperfect; perhaps I accede to you, but that would only apply to one count, they have six more counts, I do not say that they are all safe counts, but you will see what they propose taking their verdict upon.

Mr. Malcolm Richardson sworn.

Examined by Mr. Gurney.

Q. I believe you are a bookseller and also act as a stock broker.

A. I am.

Q. You are not a Member of the Stock Exchange.

A. No, I am not.

Q. In the afternoon of Saturday the 19th of February, did Mr. Butt, make any application to you on the subject of stock.

A. On the morning of that day.

Q. What did he apply to you to do?

A. He applied to me to purchase a quantity of Omnium.

Q. How much did he mention?

A. He mentioned on the first instance as much as L150,000.

Q. What answer did you give to that?

A. I hesitated to execute such a commission as that to that extent.

Q. How much did you purchase for him?

A. L20,000.

Q. On that Saturday?

A. Yes, in the morning I speak of.

Q. What did you do with that L20,000?

A. I received instructions to sell it again, if I could get a quarter per cent profit.

Q. Did you get a profit and sell it again?

A. In a short time I did get three-eighths per cent profit, and consequently sold it again without waiting for instructions.

Q. Did you then by his instructions make any further purchase for him?

A. I did in the latter part of that day purchase first L20,000 and then L10,000.

Q. On the morning of Monday the 21st did you sell out that L30,000?

A. I did.

Q. In pursuance of instructions received on the Saturday or on the Monday?