2373. Are those women who knit for you paid generally in money, or in goods; or is there an account between you?-There is always an account kept with the knitters, and they are paid in cash or in goods-principally in goods; but there is no objection to pay them in cash when they want it.

2374. Are your people instructed to pay in cash when cash is asked for?-I never gave any direct instructions to that effect; but occasionally they may pay in cash when they know a customer well. If it is advances that are wanted, they would require to know the character of the customer to whom the advances are made.

2375. Do you mean to say that the question whether a request for an advance is to be granted or not, depends upon the state of the customer's account at that time?-Exactly, or mostly that.

2376. Then, if a knitter has a considerable amount at her credit, and wants money, is it the rule in your shop that she will get an advance?-She will get an advance in money when she has it to get; but we don't call that an advance,-it is a debt; and it has been generally understood, as has been often stated, that it is goods which they are to get for their work. That rule, however, has often been departed from-more particularly lately.

2377. You say there is an understanding they are to be paid in goods, but that that understanding has been departed from?-Yes, often. But the last question put to me was a double one. With regard to the other part of it,-as to them having a large amount at their credit,-the fact is, that they seldom have anything at their credit, but when the goods come in, they have to be entered to their credit, to make up for advances which they received when they were knitting. That is the rule, but there are several exceptions to it.

2378. As a general rule, has a knitter got more goods from you than the value of her work?-Yes; she generally has got quite equal to the value of it, and frequently more.

2379. You say that she has either got more goods than the value of the hosiery which she brings, or she has got at least up to the value of the work returned?-Yes; generally.

2380. Have you formed any idea as to whether the kind of goods which you supply to your knitters consists to a greater extent of articles of ordinary dress, such as cotton, and dress stuffs, and boots and shoes, or of millinery, and the finer articles which you deal in?-They consist principally of strong usable wearing apparel, boots and shoes, and other things that are generally required for domestic purposes or for their own wear.

2381. You say that you have about 80 or 100 women engaged knitting to you?-I only guessed that. I think there must be more.

2382. Is the system of dealing with the whole of these, that an account is kept?-Yes.

2383. Is that account kept in a pass-book with the knitter?-Not always. When they want a pass-book, they get it. You can see from that book [producing work-book], who have pass-books and who have not.

2384. Has every knitter a separate page in your work-ledger?- Yes; the book speaks for itself.

2385. It may be convenient for both of us if you take the case of Jemima Sandison just now, whose passbook I have got here. Is that pass-book an exact copy of the page in her name in your ledger?-Yes; the entries in both are made, at the same time. She brings the pass-book when she wants any article and the entry is made in the work-book at the same time as in the [Page 50] pass-book. Unless there is any error in summation or date, the one should be an exact transcript of the other.

2386. Is it generally known by you or your shopkeeper whether there is a sum at the credit of the worker, or whether the account stands the other way?-After they have gone on for a while, and when they come in with any work, of course we square up the books and examine them.

2387. In adding up Jemima Sandison's book, I find from November 11, 1870, to December 28, 1871, the amount of goods and cash supplied to her was 3, 5s. 3d.?-Yes; but there is something I may explain with regard to this particular case. All the work she has done does not appear here. If she wants to get wool or any other article, she can get it out of the shop on bringing goods for it, and that does not appear in the book. She sells the goods to us when she has made them, and gets either cash or goods for them according she wishes. That book does not show all our transactions with her.

2388. Some of them may be ready-money transactions?-Not ready-money, but private transactions, that do not appear in the books at all, because the book only contains the goods she gets from us, and for which she returns knitted work. She is paid for the knitting of these goods, and not for the whole value.

2389. How do you distinguish, in that case, between the goods that go into the pass-book and those which she gets, but which do not enter the pass-book?-There is no occasion to distinguish between them at all, because they are separate transactions.

2390. When she comes with a separate article to sell, how do you do?-Suppose a time when trade is dull, as Mr. Laurenson has explained, and we are not making falls (which is the principal thing this woman makes for us), we try to keep her in work by giving her out material, and she makes anything else with it that she likes. We do not enter that in the book at all. She makes it for herself. We may buy it from her, or she may go and sell it to another if she likes; or she, may have a private order for it, and sell it in that way. These transactions do not appear in the book.

2391. But when she comes to you, and you do happen to buy an article in that way from her, is she paid for it to a certain extent in goods?-Yes, if she wants them.

2392. These goods are not entered in the day-book?-Of course not.

2393. You just deliver there to her across the counter, in the same way as you would deliver them to any party who came in to make a ready-money transaction?-Yes.

2394. If she does not want exactly the value of goods which will pay for her shawl, or for any other article which she may have brought to you, do you enter the balance in any book?-No; we do not enter it in the book, except in the line-book. We give her a receipt for the balance, and we give her the balance in cash or in goods at any other time.

2395. If she wishes money for the balance, is it usual thing in your trade to pay it in money?-The fact is that we never refused her money when she asked it. She stated that in her evidence.

2396. That may have been the case with this particular woman, but is it the fact that any knitter who wants a balance of that kind in money is able to get it?-If she has bargained to take goods, and if the price we put on the article be such that we cannot give money on it without making a loss by it, then we don't give the money: we stick to the bargain. If the bargain has been such that it would allow us any little profit on it, then we give it all in money, if they want it in that way.

2397. The question whether she is to get money or goods for the balance, depends on the bargain which the woman has made?- Yes; decidedly.

2398. Can you tell me any case in which you have paid the whole price for hosiery goods in money?-I could tell you many cases of that kind, For instance, I could mention the case of Miss Gifford.

2399. What was the transaction you had with her?-My last transaction with her-indeed I have only had one for a long time-was for a shawl which bought from her; and paid all cash for it.

2400. When was that?-About three months ago.

2401. What was the price?-The price of the shawl was 4, and I gave her four 1 notes for it.

2402. Was not that a very valuable shawl?-Yes but I would rather have taken it and paid money for it, than I would have given barter for a thing that might lie on my hands until the moths eat it.

2403. The quality of the thing was so good, that you wanted to have it at any price?-Yes, and I could charge a small profit on it; but I cannot do that on the great bulk of the things I get.

2404. Did you pay for that in cash because it was an exceptional article?-I paid for it in cash because I wanted it. I would do the same for anything I wanted; but when goods are forced upon us, and goods asked for them, we cannot be expected to put our hands into the till and pay out cash for them.

2405. Are goods forced upon you?-Yes.

2406. Have you no option but to buy them?-No. That is not the meaning of my words. I do not mean that we are forced to buy them, in that sense. I mean, that people come in importuning us to buy goods which we do not want.

2407. You do buy them, however?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

2408. Is it in consequence of the importunity of your customers that you buy them?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

2409. But you say that sometimes you are forced by the importunity of your customers to buy their goods?-Yes; we may be induced to do it by an importunate woman.

2410. And when the importunity is so great that you are constrained to buy them, are these the cases in which you pay in goods?-No; the people often don't want the cash. They don't ask for it. They come to us with the general understanding that the, trade is done in goods-I mean in barter.

2411. Do you say the general understanding is that the payment is to be in goods, and also that you have sometimes to buy goods because you are importuned to do so?-Decidedly. I say I do buy them sometimes, because I cannot get rid of the customer otherwise, but these are exceptional cases.

2412. Is it because of the importunity, or because it is the general custom, that the payment is in goods?-That has been a tradition from time immemorial.

2413. But you have assigned the fact of paying in goods to both of these causes, and I wish to know which of them it is that you really refer it to?-It is sometimes the one and sometimes the other.

2414. But you are not obliged to buy hosiery and pay with goods unless you like?-Not at all; nor for money either. What I stated was, that I would rather pay in cash for a good article which I can sell again, than purchase a thing on barter that I have a great risk in selling. That is the whole import and purpose of what I said.

2415. You instanced one transaction,-that which you had with Elizabeth Gifford?-Yes; and there is another girl, Catherine Brown, who is in Leith just now, from whom I bought a great number of shawls, and paid her cash down for them.

2416. Was that long ago?-It has gone over a number of years.

2417. Was your reason for paying the cash the same in that case: because the articles which you got from her were good?-Yes; they were prime articles.

2418. Is there any one else you wish to mention?-There are many cases in which I paid cash for hosiery articles, although I could not name the persons just now. They were people whose faces I knew, but I cannot recollect their names.

2419. Were these cases in which you paid the whole value in cash?-Yes.

2420. Did these transactions enter your books?-No; the cash was just paid for them at the time.

2421. Do you take no notice of the cash paid out in [Page 51] that way?-Not generally. I don't that there is any special entry in the cash-book showing what it had been paid for.

2422. Don't you take a receipt from such persons?-No, I never did.

2423. Then how do you know the price at which to sell these shawls?-Because I put the prices on the shawls myself.

2424. Do you mark them all at the time?-Yes.

2425. And you swear that no entry of such a payment enters into any of your books?-I swear that, to my knowledge, there is no memorandum taken of a cash transaction carried through in that way. With regard Elizabeth Gifford, I may explain that I gave her a receipt for a shawl to be paid for in cash, and she came to my shop some time afterwards and got the cash.

2426. Then that cash entered your book?-Yes. Here is the entry [produces line-book]: 'C. M. 95. 1. 11.71. Paid in cash, 80s. 4.'

2427. How do you know that is the transaction?-Because it is the only transaction of the kind that is in the book, it is the only transaction in which 4 was paid in cash.

2428. Was that entry all made at one time?-The first part of it was made when she brought the shawl. The date when she got the line is not here.

2429. Then it was on 1st November 1871 that she got the money?-Yes.

2430. The entry made at first was 'C.M. 95. 80s. 4?'-Yes.

2431. And the figures '1. 11. 71,' and the words 'paid in cash,' were inserted when the money was given?-Yes

2432. There is no entry of the date of the issuing of the line at first?-No; the book was not being dated then.

2433. When did the book begin to be dated?-We have the date on the line itself, and therefore it is quite sufficient to enter the numbers of the lines in the book.

2434. But when did the book begin to be dated?-On 30th October.

2435. Then it must have been a few days before 30th October when the line was first given out?-Yes.

2436. To come back to Jemima Sandison's book the total amount supplied to her was 3, 5s. 31/2d. in period of thirteen months, and there was a balance of 16s. to begin with. The amount that appears to have been paid in cash during that time is 3s. 6d. on all these transaction: is that so?-It may be; but I have ready explained that the entries in the book do not represent all the cash which she got from me.

2437. She also appears to have got tea on thirty-seven different occasions, in quantities of 8d., 9d., and 10d. worth at the time?- Yes; that would be a quarter of a pound.

2438. The amount of tea altogether comes to 5d. or more than one-half of the total quantity of all that she got from you. If we assume that she got a amount of tea as part of the previous balance of 16s, there is thus only 8s. 6d. paid in cash, 30s. or more paid in tea, and the rest paid in goods. Can you give me any idea whether the amount of cash paid to this woman on the separate transactions you have been speaking of would be greater or less than the amount appearing in this book?-I could not swear as to what it was, because we are transacting business of that kind with her very frequently, and it is impossible to remember what amount of goods or of cash she got on these particular transactions. I should say that what the book gives about a fair average of what it might be upon the other sales as well, or it might be that it would rather exceed it; but I should wish to remark that she never was refused the cash that was asked for by her.

2439. Do you think the case of this woman Sandison may be taken as a fair specimen of the accounts which you keep with the other women employed by you?-No, there are exceptions; there are some who got a good deal more cash than she did.

2440. Was there any reason, in these other cases, for their getting more cash?-Of course they asked for more and perhaps they needed it. There are some who are equally dependent with her, and who have perhaps less chances of getting money otherwise. As I said, she sometimes makes to order, and gets cash from that source. If you will take the case of Mary Ann Sinclair and her sisters as it appears in the book, you will see that they got more cash than Sandison did.

2441. I see in Mary Ann Sinclair's account on 'September 30, 1868, cash 5s.; October 13, cash for meal 11s. 3d.; November 18, cash 1s.; November 23, to paid William Smith for meal 5s. 4d.; November. 27, cash 1s.' Do you give that as an average specimen of the amount of cash that was paid?-There may be exceptional cases; but I daresay, taking the whole thing, Sandison's pass-book may be regarded as a fair specimen of the way in which the thing has gone on.

2442. In that account of Mary Ann Sinclair's which you have just showed me there is an entry of 5s. 4d. paid to William Smith for meal: who is William Smith?-He is a grocer in town.

2443. Was that paid to him directly, or did the money pass through the hands of the woman Sinclair?-I generally gave her the money, and told her to go anywhere she liked with it; but in some cases, if it happened that I did not have the cash on the counter, or handy, she went to the same person that she used to deal with, or to any one she wanted to go to, and got what she required, and I paid the cash for it perhaps on the same day.

2444. In what way was that transaction carried out? Did you give her a line to go to Smith for the meal?-I don't think it. I have no recollection of doing it.

2445. Is that a common kind of entry in your book?-No.

2446. There is another entry of 11s. 3d, for meal: would that be paid to Smith or to the woman Sinclair?-I think it was paid to herself.

2447. Then why is it entered in your book as being for meal?- Very often we did that in order to distinguish the things she wanted the cash for, and to keep a check on them. For instance, they might come in and ask cash from me and they would receive it.

2448. But why should you wish to keep a check on them in a case like that?-I don't know.

2449. Had you any interest in the way in which the woman was to spend her money?-No; but if we paid cash to a person for one of these women, we marked it down as having been paid.

2450. Then when you put down this sum of 11s. 3d. for meal, did that mean that you had paid the money to Smith or to some other meal-dealer, or that you had paid the money to Mary Ann Sinclair herself?-I cannot recollect.

2451. I only want you to explain, if possible, or to suggest an explanation if you don't remember, about how it happened that that entry was made for meal. If the woman got it in cash, would it not be simply marked down as cash?-I don't remember about that. She might have got the meal from Smith, and paid him the money at any time. She may have told us that she had to pay Smith an account, and asked us to pay it for her. That is the only explanation I can give of it. Sometimes she would ask to get a little meal; and as we did not have meal, we would tell her to go to anyone she liked and get it, and we would pay the party for it. I may say, at the same time, that I did not have a fraction upon that. There was no compact about in between me and the man who supplied her with the meal. We just paid her account to him in cash.

2452. You don't remember either of these payments?-No; I cannot remember them.

2453 Do you know whether such entries are frequent in your books?-They are not; there is no occasion for them being frequent.

2454. Does a woman often come and say to you, 'I want some money to pay for meal or some groceries, and I wish you would give me so much?'-No; I have no recollection of any other case than the one which [Page 52] has been referred to. There may have been cases in which, when selling an article, they may have asked for a few shillings for themselves, and where they may have mentioned what they wanted it for; but with regard to Mary Ann Sinclair's case, to the best of my recollection, this was just an account which I paid for her to a meal-dealer that she was owing it to.

2455. You say that some of your knitters don't have pass-books at all?-The majority of them have.

2456. In that case, the only account kept with them is the one entered in your work-book?-Yes; but whenever we settle, we carefully read over all the items to them and if they take any objection to them, of course they get some explanation.

2457. The work-book you have produced is the current one?- Yes.

2458. Is there any entry in it showing where a pass-book has been given?-Yes; it is generally marked in red pencil where there is a pass-book. There are not many pass-books; I don't think we have a dozen altogether; but the women are never refused a pass-book if they want it. It entails a great deal more trouble on us to keep them.

2459. When you come to settle one of these accounts where there is no pass-book, how do you proceed?-For instance, here is Elizabeth Hunter, from Trondra: she comes into town on September 2, and you find then a balance for articles brought in, which she takes in goods?-She takes more than she has to get.

2460. Are all these items read over to her at that time?-Every item is read over to every person when we settle with them. We always make a point of reading over the account in detail, and satisfying them about it. Sometimes it happens that they cannot remember about a particular thing, and some explanation is given to them, generally by one of the people the shop; and that satisfies them.

2461. Does it sometimes happen that the balance such a case is in favour of the knitter?-Yes; sometimes.

2462. Is it, then, the practice simply to carry the balance on to the new account, or does the woman receive any acknowledgment for the balance?-The balance generally the other way. I may say that we never take goods in advance. They generally go ahead, and we must keep a tight rein on some of them otherwise they would go deep enough. For instance here is a copy of the account of Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined before you on Monday. [Produces copy account.]

2463. Before going into that, I believe you think that in some parts of the previous evidence an erroneous impression has been produced to the effect that no worsted can be got in exchange for the knitted goods?-Yes; I can state that I myself with my own hands have given Elizabeth Robertson worsted in payment for shawls more than once. I have given her the greater part of the value of her shawls, or of the goods she had to sell, in worsted, although that does not appear in her account.

2464. That has occurred when she has brought articles to you for sale or exchange?-Yes.

2465. Do you say you have often given her the greater part of her work in worsted?-I have not often given her the greater part, but I have often given her part, and sometimes the greater part, in worsted. Those in my shop can bear testimony to the same effect, that they have given her worsted too. In fact we never refused to give Pyrenees wool for the knitted goods when we had it, except on rare occasions, when we had very little of it, and had to give it out ourselves for work that we required.

2466. I suppose you know that if you give them that worsted in return for their hosiery, they will bring it back to you?-They may, or they may not.

2467. Do they not bring it to somebody?-They may to somebody, but perhaps not to me. They may have an order for it from a lady in the south, or dispose of it in other ways. We do not ask them what they do with it, unless we give it out to them to make a special article with. The fact is, with regard to that kind of worsted we do scarcely anything in it, but we sell it to any knitter in order to accommodate them.

2468. Then you say you have given Pyrenees worsted to Elizabeth Robertson?-Yes.

2469. Have you ever given her the other kinds of worsted that come from Yorkshire?-That is the same thing.

2470. Is the Pyrenees and the Yorkshire worsted all the same?- No, the Pyrenees is one class. There is mohair worsted. I don't recollect whether I ever gave any of it. It is used, for knitting falls. 'The Pyrenees is generally made into shawls.

2471. Does Robertson generally make shawls-Yes, generally; but she makes falls too. I don't recollect giving her mohair; but I have given her Pyrenees often. She would get any kind when she asked for it; but mohair is a thing we never do sell, because we only bring it in for our own use

2472. Is it the highest priced of all?-Yes.

2473. Is it higher than the Shetland wool?-We don't sell the Shetland wool, except in rare, exceptional cases. The fine wool we never sell, because we have great difficulty in getting it. We never send it south; nor do we sell it in the shop as an article of sale, except on occasions when a person is very much in want of it for any particular purpose.

2474. For darning, for instance?-No, that kind of wool is not fit for darning; it is only the coarser kind that is used in that way.

2475. Then you don't regard the Shetland wool as an article of commerce?-No, it is a material we use for ourselves and we have very great difficulty in getting as much of it as we require. We pay cash for it; and if we were to sell it would put a stop to our trade.

2476. You heard the evidence of Mr. Laurenson about Shetland wool?-Yes; it is something different from my experience. If a lady or a retail dealer in the south orders a Shetland shawl, we don't send a shawl made of Shetland wool unless we know that they want that particular kind, but if we send one of Pyrenees wool, we tell them what it is made of and that if will not do, they can return it.

2477. With regard to the worsted, does the idea that knitters cannot purchase worsted from merchants in Lerwick arise from the fact that the merchants do not regard Shetland wool as an article of commerce?-That is my impression. They not only do not so regard it; but the fact is, if they made it an article of commerce, it would put a stop to their business.

2478. How so?-Because they cannot get sufficient material for their own use and also for sale.

2479. Do you mean that if you sold Shetland wool to any one who asked it, you would not have a sufficient supply for your own trade?-That is one reason; but there is another reason: because it would be like changing a shilling, for the people know the value of these things, and they would just pay me for the wool what I paid for it in cash.

2480. They can get the wool from the same dealers from whom you buy?-Yes, and of course the price of it is as well known to them as to me. Another thing is, that if I take a parcel of worsted of perhaps 600 or 700 cuts, a knitter who wants some of it won't be pleased unless she gets the very pick of it; and for the very pick of it she won't give me any more than I had to pay for the whole of it overhead.

2481. That is substantially what Mr. Laurenson said with regard to the reason for not selling Shetland wool. He does not sell it either?-None of the principal dealers sell it. Sometimes some of the wool is sold to grocers in town who don't deal in shawls, and the knitters buy it from them.

2482. But if the knitters ask for Shetland wool, and offer cash for it, is it usual to sell it?-No, except in very exceptional cases; and you will see that an exception has been made in the case of that girl Robertson.

[Page 53]

2483. You want to point that out?-Yes; I consider that we dealt with her in rather an exceptional way.

2484. I see '12 cuts worsted:' is that what you refer to?-There is more than that in the account. The very first thing is a balance on worsted from a previous account, of 2s.; then on December 16, 1865, she gets 12 and 16 cuts at the same time, but at different prices. The 16 cuts are charged at 3d. per cut, which is a kind of worsted we very seldom sell. Then July 5, 1866, there are 12 cuts; and in 1868 there are other sales of worsted to her.

2485. Is this a copy from your books of the account with Elizabeth Robertson?-Yes; exactly.

2486. The crosses on the side show where worsted has been given?-Yes.

2487. Do these entries refer to Shetland worsted?-I think mostly.

2488. But you say this is an exceptional case?-Yes; it was to favour her that I did it.

2489. Was there any particular reason for favouring her in that way?-It was done because I thought she was a needful person, and she pleaded for it.

2490. Was it that sort of wool that she was in the way of knitting?-It was that kind she wanted; and although I was not in the habit of selling it, I gave it to oblige her.

2491. Do these entries appear in the ordinary account which you kept with her as a knitter employed by you?-She was never employed by me specially.

2492. Did she always knit with her own wool?-Always with me. She did not knit specially to me, that I recollect of I have no recollection of ever employing her. [Shown account in work-book.] I see from this that she has knitted for me. She knitted three shawls for me in 1867. The others are shawls she knitted for herself, and sold in the shop. At 15, March 1870, she was due me 4, 16s. 31/2d.

2493. I see that between March 29 and December 28 she has paid off that balance with the exception about 1?-Yes. Then she said in her evidence that she would not have taken out so much in clothes, or half so much, if it had not been that she was compelled to take goods for her work. Now I would ask how that statement is consistent with the fact that for about twelve months she was due me that sum, mostly for clothes, when she was not asked to take them, but the reverse.

2494. She got them on credit?-Yes.

2495. Then this account of hers you happen to have, because she was knitting at that time for you?-I would not assign that is a reason for her getting the goods.

2496. But I am asking you the reason why you have this account?-Because it is in my books.

2497. I rather understood that the only women who had accounts entered in your books were those who were employed by you as knitters: is not that so?-Of course, when the women get into my debt, I must take note of what they bring to me with which to pay off their debt; and that must pass through my books. I do not take a note of all the transactions over the counter; it is only when a woman runs into debt that anything appears in the books.

2498. Is this account taken from what you call the work-book?- No; it is entered first in our ledgers, and now it has been transferred to the work-book.

2499. Is the ledger a different book?-The work-book is a kind of compound between the two. It was entered first in the one, and then in the other.

2500. But it was because the woman was working for you that the account happened to be put in that form?-Of course. I think that was mostly the way in which the credit was got. She would just creep in and then, and she was in the habit of getting things that she asked for, and these were put into the book. That is the only way in which I can account for her getting them. But I would draw attention to the copy of her account, as showing that she got goods she needed them and it was a mere subterfuge for her to say that she got goods from the merchant although she did not knit for him.

2501. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the evidence of Elizabeth Robertson?-Nothing, except with regard to these two items of it.

2502. When she was under examination she handed me this line [showing line quoted in Elizabeth Robertson's evidence]; and I have also got a line in these

'C. Y. 92.-Credit bearer value in goods for 18s. 'R. SINCLAIR & CO. 'J.J.B. '22. 12. 71.'

Do you give out many of these lines in your business?-Yes, a good many.

2503. How is that?-It is not our wish to give lines, if the women would only take the value out at once; but when they have bargained to take goods for their work or for their hosiery, and they will not take them at the time, what are we to do?-We might enter them in a book, but they prefer to have a line, and come with it and get what they want marked on it later, whenever they want the goods.

2504. What is the meaning of the initial letters at the commencement of the line?-They are put there so that we may be able to identify the lines at a glance and they correspond with the same letters in the line-book, where a check is kept. The numbers begin under each initial letter, and run to 100 consecutively until that number is reached, and then we begin with another initial letter. For instance, after C. W. we have C. X.

2505. There are two letters: how do you explain that?-Because, when we get to the end of the alphabet we must distinguish; we could not begin with again.

2506. In introducing this system of notation you began with?- Yes, and went on to Z.

2507. You numbered these receipts or notes, or whatever they may be called, A 1, A 2, and so on up to A 100, and then you went through the alphabet with one letter until you came to Z 100?- Yes.

2508. When you began to take A A 1, and so on?-I think it was A B, until we came to the end of the alphabet again.

2509. Then you took BA, and so on to B Z, using the double letters BA, 100 times, and the double letters BC 100 times?-Yes.

2510. How long is it since this system was introduced?-I have no recollection how long it is since it began. It is not two years, I think; but it may be more.

2511. Does that mean that you have issued some 6000 or 8000 of these lines in two years?-I suppose so. It will just mean about that.

2512. Can you give me any idea, or do your books give any idea, within what time these lines are brought back to be liquidated?- Sometimes in two hours, and sometimes longer. When we take goods from the knitters, we generally, in order to prevent any mistake, give them a receipt for them in that form; and having other work to do when we are very busy, they take that in their pocket and go away, and then they look in again when we have a slack moment and get the value of it, sometimes on the very same day. I don't know how often it is on the same day, but it is very often.

2513. Are these lines only given to the people who sell you goods, or are they given also to your work-people?-There are very few of the work-people who got lines in that way. It is only when the people selling goods that they may get such a line if they want it.

2514. Can you tell me any of your work-people who have got lines in that way?-I cannot; but the work-book would show if such lines had been given.

2515. In what way does the work-book show it?-By an entry to the individual's debit. I think you will find very few of them.

2516. What do you call these things? Do you call them I O U's, or receipts, or lines; or what are they?-They are just vouchers for their value.

[Page 54]

2517. Is it a general practice in the trade in Lerwick to give these lines?-It is only within the last few years that it has been practised to any extent, and we would, much rather do away with them if we could.

2518. How could they be done away with?-Just by giving the people value for their goods when they bring them. That is the only way I know.

2519. Do you mean the value in cash?-The value in cash or in goods. If it cash tariff were introduced, which I suppose would be better for the whole of us, it would save us all this bother.

2520. Do you think it would be better to have a cash system introduced altogether?-It would be better for the trade, at any rate.

2521. But the nominal price paid to the knitters would in that case be less?-I think that, in some cases, not only the nominal but the real price would be less.

2522. Do you mean that the knitter would really get less value for her work?-I do mean that, as we have always endeavoured to deal on that principle,-to sell on cash terms, and to take the very least we could for the article in cash.

2523. You mean that you take the smallest profit you can on your goods?-Yes. Suppose for instance, a woman comes in with a shawl, the market value of which is 20s. that is the price I should expect to get, and would get, for it.

2524. Do you mean that is the market value in Lerwick?-No; it is the market value in the south. Suppose the value put upon it were 1, I would only get 20s. for it in the south.

2525. Do you sell your goods to retail or wholesale dealers?-I sell them wherever I can get them sold, but the greater part of them are sold wholesale; that is, we sell them wholesale to retail dealers.

2526. You sell them to retail dealers, so that you have only one price, for your goods going south?-Yes.

2527. You heard Mr. Laurenson state that there was sometimes it difference in the price which he charged, according as the sale was one to dealer, or to a dealer who sold retail?-I understood Mr. Laurenson to mean that he made a difference when he sold a shawl to a private customer, and when he sold a dozen or two to a retail dealer; and so do we.

2528. Is that the only difference you make in selling your goods?-Yes; and we think that is only fair the trade.

2529. I interrupted you when you were putting the case of a shawl worth 20s. What did you wish to say about that?-We fix our lowest rate of profits, and we give the people goods the same as if they had cash to lay down for them; and I can bring evidence to that effect if you want it.

2530. Do you mean that you fix your lowest rate of profit upon the hosiery goods you buy?-No; our lowest rate of profit on the goods we sell. A third way of explaining it is, that we treat as cash the goods which we buy. A shawl worth 20s. is reckoned by us as a 1 note would be reckoned,-with this difference, that if a man is laying down a l note we would give him 5 per cent. discount when he bought our goods. We consider that the trouble we have with the shawls, and the time we lie out of our money, is worth 5 per cent.

2531. Then what you say comes to this: that upon your hosiery goods you make no profit at all?-Not when they are once sold; that is to say, when they are once bought, the profit lies in the profit we have upon the goods. That is the only profit we have in the matter.

2532. But upon the hosiery, looked at by itself, you do not make any profit at all?-No; I say that I make none, and I swear to that most emphatically.

2533. In other words, the profit you make upon your purchases of hosiery is only the profit you make upon your sales of goods, which are given in return for the hosiery?-Yes; in short, it is two sales for one profit.

2534. That is to say, you are obliged to take the hosiery at the market price in the south, in order to get payment for your drapery and other goods?-With regard to that, I am not obliged to take them, further than that is the only thing in the country that reckoned as a kind of payment.

2535. It is the only thing which your purchasers have to give you for your goods?-That is my meaning exactly.

2536. You were going to offer me some evidence of that?-I can give evidence of it afterwards. My own employees can prove it, also women who have been in my employment, and also people who have been purchasing both for cash and goods.

2537. What can they prove?-They can prove that there is no difference between the two prices, and that the price which I charged is the lowest price I can fix.

2538. You are prepared to give evidence of this fact, that the price you allow to the seller of hosiery in Shetland is the price you get from the buyer in the south?-Yes, I can prove that. At least I can prove that it is so on the whole, by comparison, the invoiced prices of the goods sent south with the general prices of goods bought in the country. Here is a list of them [producing trade list].

2539. Is this list what you send to your purchasing customers?- Yes; and if you compare these prices with the prices of similar goods bought at the counter of my shop, you will find that there is no difference. The question was put to me, whether there would be a difference between the nominal value a customer would receive under the present system and if a cash system were introduced. I say there would be a real difference, but ultimately the merchant would be no loser. The difference would lie in this: that if I were compelled to buy goods for cash, that is, if I could not barter them, I would have no profit by giving the same rate that I now give. That, I think, is plain from what I have already stated. Then I would require to buy them at a discount equivalent to the profit I now have on my goods, or else I could not carry on my trade; and that would be the same with whoever dealt in these articles. The cash price we can afford to give for Shetland goods here is just the value we pay for the goods that we give in exchange for them; and if we were to give more than that price, there would be an end of the trade.

2540. Do you not mean that it is the value you pay for the goods you give in exchange, plus your profit upon these goods?-I say the price we could afford to pay in cash is just the price we do pay cash, which is paid not to the knitter, but to the party in the south that we buy our goods from. Our goods cost us cash: that cash, thousands of pounds every year, would go into the hands of the knitters here; but in that case we would just give them that money, less the profit we have on the goods. That is speaking of the thing in a broad sense. There would be a real loss to the knitters in that case where they were fairly dealt with, because they could not get goods without a profit, and they in that case would have to put their hands into their pockets and give a few shillings more. For instance, suppose the case of a 20s. shawl: they get 20s. of real good value for it under the present system. If I were obliged to pay in cash, I suppose I could not give more than 16s. or 17s. for it; and if the individual wanted the very same thing from me which she can now get for the 20s., yet under the other system she would require to go to some other shop and purchase it, paying 3s. or 4s. more for it than she now does.

2541. Is this what it comes to: that if a cash system were introduced, the knitter would be worse off, because the merchant would require to take two profits instead of one?-He would only have one profit to take.

2542. But if it were a cash system, would he have to take two profits?-No, he would not take two profits.

2543. If there were a cash system, would not the [Page 55] buyer of the hosiery from the knitter require to make a profit upon the hosiery?-Decidedly.

2544. And further, would not the seller of the goods to her require to have a profit upon these goods as well?-Certainly.

2545. Therefore there would be two profits?-Yes; there would be two profits taken from the knitter, but not by me.

2546. But I am putting the case of the knitter, and in that case the buyer of the hosiery might be a different person altogether?-That is my meaning.

2547. The knitter would have to sell her hosiery at such a price that the hosiery merchant would make a profit on his re-sale, while she would have to buy the goods at such a price that the dealer from whom she bought them would make something like the present profit which you make upon them?-Yes. Suppose we were to purchase for cash, and the cash system were introduced, in all probability the drapers would be simply drapers, and not hosiers at all; or they might withdraw their capital from the drapery business and embark it in the hosiery business altogether.

2548. Then what you mean to make out is, that at present you are making only one profit?-I do mean to make that out, for it is true; and I am very thankful when I can get it.

2549. How do you prove that there is only one profit at present?- By looking at the prices at which the goods are bought and sold.

2550. Let us take a single instance: you have put in a wholesale trade list for 1870?-Yes; we have later ones, but that will be sufficient for the purpose. There is no difference on them.

2551. Is that list issued at the beginning of the year?-I should like that others proved that, and not me. You can get it from my employees, or from my books, or from people who buy from me.

2552. In what way do you suggest that it should be shown? By this wholesale trade list, and by taking a variety of instances from your books in which prices have been paid for the articles that are mentioned here?-Yes.

2553. How would that be shown in your books?-By entries to the knitters whom we deal with.

2554. We could not find that by the entries in the work-book, because they show it only in detail?-I am not speaking of the work-book just now.

2555. It could only be shown by the sales?-Yes; and of course that list has been prepared from the prices which we pay for the goods.

2556. Do you mean the prices to dealers, or prices to people who sell them over the counter to you?-I mean the prices that we pay to the people for them, and which I pay over to them.

2557. But I think you said that when you buy the goods over the counter, no record is kept of these prices?-No; but the people that we buy them from would tell you the prices they get for them. In some instances, where debts have been paid by means of these goods, there may be entries in the books which will show the prices.

2558. Is there any entry in your books at all of your purchases of hosiery? I rather understood you to say that there was no such entry?-I think I said that when goods were presented for sale, there was note taken of what was given for them; but when goods come from the north isles or from people who send them to us from a distance, we enter them in the books.

2559. Are there dealers in the north isles who send goods to you?-Either dealers or private individuals may send us falls or various other things, and the entries with regard to them will show the prices given for them.

2560. These transactions will appear in the day-book?-I think so.

2561.You think Mr. Sandison, your bookkeeper, would be better able to point these out than you?-He would be better able to lay his hand on them; but sometimes we buy from dealers and pay cash for them, and same thing applies in that case which Mr. Laurenson stated, that we charge a small percentage on these goods, because we pay in cash for them.

2562. You put in the trade list, and you also put in a copy invoice, which you have shown to me, containing the prices at which you have sold the goods there mentioned?-Yes. It shows that there is a certain discount allowed; but that discount does not come off the profits charged on the hosiery, but off the sales of goods I give for them.

2563. Do you calculate that there is a larger profit upon hosiery goods which are made by your own knitters than on those which you buy and sell in the way you have described?-That is it question I have sometimes asked myself; and, taking the thing altogether, I don't think there is much difference.

2564. Don't you allow a little for the extra trouble and risk you have with your knitters?-There is a certain market price that we cannot get beyond. We must take the price in the market. Unless one merchant was able to monopolize the trade altogether, and force up the prices, he would not get more than the market price of the goods.

2565. You have said that the footing on which you settle with your knitters and with those who sell to you is, that the bargain between you is that they are to take goods?-That is the understanding. We do not make any formal bargain.

2566. Is that bargain made with the knitters whom you employ at the time when you give out the wool?-I have said already that we make no formal bargain, but it is generally understood that we pay them in kind. They know that, and consequently they very seldom ask for anything else. But we don't stick entirely to that.

2567. You sometimes give them cash?-Yes.

2568. Is it regarded as a great favour to pay them a considerable sum in cash?-I may give an instance. The general price paid for knitting a fall of Shetland yarn is about 1s. That is about the average price, although the coarser quality may be lower than that. The yarn for that fall costs us from 6d. to 7d. That is paid in cash; and the girl is paid part in cash and part in goods, or it may be all in goods. That brings up the cost to 19d.; but if it is wanted black we must pay freight south, in order to have it dyed, and freight back to Shetland. We also pay for the dyeing of it; and these things altogether come to about 11/2d. per fall-that is 1s. 81/2d.; and then there is dressing, 1d.

2569. When do you send it south for dyeing?-When it is made.

2570. And do you bring it back here to be dressed?-Yes; that is an additional expense upon it, which has never been pointed out.

2571. Could it not be dressed in the south?-No, it could not.

2572. It must come back here simply for the dressing?-Yes; we could not value it unless we got it back and sorted it, and knew the value of it.

2573. You don't know the value of it until it is dressed?-We do not ask ourselves the value before then. We know the average value of them pretty nearly; but we send them south, and get them back dyed, and then we must dress them. There are a number of them which may be damaged, either in the working or the dyeing, and that detracts from their value, and that very fall I am now referring to, when it comes to be sold, will not bring more than perhaps 2s. In that way you can calculate where our profit lies. There are cheaper falls that do not bring more than 18d., and sometimes even lower.

2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding is that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so time out of mind: I remember a time about forty years ago, when it was different and when there were two prices on goods which they sold.

2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to per cent. of difference. I remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do know it [Page 56] myself, because I was not in the trade then, a woman may have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying cash for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of, the natives thought that was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known and done avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was not possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the same rate because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was, that the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon the goods. What I mean is that, supposing a woman came in with a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that a person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it, might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high, whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would not have made any difference; although it had been as many pounds higher, while the relative proportions were kept up between the value of the two articles.

2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of.

2577. If a woman puts a higher price on her goods, is it not the usual thing for a merchant to put a little additional on the price of the goods which he is to give her in exchange?-I don't know what other merchants do, but we never do it. Only the other day, a woman carried out two shawls which I could have bought if I had departed from our usual practice, but I thought they were priced too high. I could have sold the shawls at 1s. or 2s. lower, but I would not buy them these terms. We have one fixed price for cash and goods. I am not aware whether the practice I have mentioned exists now in the town; I don't think it does. When I commenced business I made it a point fix my price in that way, and I have always adhered that. I was told by some parties I would never do business in that manner; but I had some faith in common sense, and I hoped the people would come to see that they were as well dealt with in taking the real cash value and getting the real cash value; so that we never give a higher price than we consider the thing is worth in the market, and we do not give lower.

2578. You say your understanding is, that goods are to be taken in payment, but that cash is given to a small extent: do you not consider that to be a departure from the understanding?- Decidedly.

2579. You do that, as a favour to the knitter?-Yes; and I wish it to be distinctly understood, that in every case when I give 1s. of cash, I consider it is just 2d. out of my pocket.

2580. Would you not have that profit if the 1s. was spent in your shop?-Yes.

2581. With regard to the lines or receipts which you issue, can you say whether they are generally presented at your shop by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are made payable to the bearer, and they may not be presented by these parties.

2582. But, in point of fact, are they generally presented by the parties to whom they have been given out?-It is impossible to know who they have been given out to, or who brings them back.

2583. Then what is the purpose of your keeping this register of them?-It is a check upon the lines. If we had no check of that kind, we would not know what lines were out.

2584. And you would not know what amount was lying out in that way?-No; that is one reason for keeping it. Another thing is, that if a line was lost, and its value paid to another person who had found it, we could see by this book when it was paid.

2585. Could it show to whom it was paid?-No.

2586. I suppose the lines themselves are destroyed when they have been settled for?-Yes.

2587. You have no means of telling from your books, whether they have been presented by the original creditor in them, or by another?-No.

2588. And you don't know about that from your own personal knowledge?-As regards my own personal knowledge, I know that, in the generality of cases, they are presented by the parties to whom they have been given originally.

2589. Does that lead you to conclude that this system of lines is not a new kind of currency that has been generally adopted in Shetland?-I never heard of that.

2590. Does one of these lines pass from hand to hand, in payment for what the creditor in it wants?-Not to my knowledge. It is only now or lately that I have ever heard of such a thing being done.

2591. You have not known of them being transferred to other hands, and being presented by some one from whom the knitter has obtained other goods or services?-There never was any such thing stated to me.

2592. Of course you pay the value of the line to any one who presents it?-Yes. There was a girl, Borthwick, examined here, who said she had to sell her tea at half-price, in order to get other things which she wanted. I spoke to her about it, and said I had never heard of such a thing being done before, and that she must be a great fool to do anything of the kind; for she had come to us and said that she wanted the money, she would have got it upon giving a small discount for it.

2593. Have you actually given money upon that discount when requested?-I have.

2594. That is to say, one of these lines has been presented to you and cash asked for it?-Yes; part cash. I have sometimes given cash on these lines, although it was goods that was bargained for.

2595. The lines bear to be payable in goods?-Yes; but when I saw that the person was really requiring the cash, and that it was not just a 'try-on,' as it were, I took 2d. off the 1s. and paid in cash.

2596. May that have occurred often?-No; very seldom.

2597. Has it been lately?-Yes. I was obliged to make that deduction, because, if I had not done so, it would have opened a door for a system which would have robbed us of every penny of profit. If we were obliged to pay cash instead of goods, we would have no profit at all.

2598. But that has occurred sometimes?-I think it has only occurred twice in the whole of my transactions.

2599. When a discount is taken in that way, how is the entry made in the line-book?-The lines are entered when they are finally paid up. The way in which they are paid does not appear here at all.

2600. Then that discount will not appear in the book?-No; but I may say that I often give small sums of cash on these lines without taking a discount, where I think the person is really in need of it.

2601. I think you said these lines were very seldom given to women whom you employ to knit for you?-Very seldom, I think.

2602. Can you name any of these women who have got them?-I cannot; perhaps Mr. Sandison can. He is more in the way of settling with these people than I am.

2603. Have you any dealings in stockings and the commoner kinds of hosiery?-The price-list will show that.

2604. Is the system of dealing in these just the same as you have already described?-The same principle applies to all the trade.

2605. That kind of goods is generally brought in from the country, I understand?-Yes, generally.

2606. Is it the case that people coming in from the country take goods more readily than the town?-There are very few of the people from the country who ask for cash, but they are now beginning [Page 57] to do it. They think the Truck Commission will force us to give cash.

2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want cash.

2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with that?-I don't know. We have no objection to give them cash, if they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have already explained.

2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?- I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so.

2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the parties, but I would know their faces at once.

2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth 1. At that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to them, 'Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for them in money?' One of them said, 'Oh, I ken you will just be going to give us money.' I said, 'Why? Don't you think the goods you get cost us money?' She said, 'I ken that fine. I will give my 20s. shawl for 18s. 6d.' I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it, and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, 'No,' and that it would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl. I said, 'I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken off.

2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, 'I would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the plaid in exchange for the shawl?' That was her answer to me.

2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so. Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect.

2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for meal?-Not often for meal.

2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small sums for such things when the people want them.

2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it.

2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash transaction.

2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect.

2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not have it.

2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and another in which the entry is, 'Paid William Smith for meal.' Do you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal from some one; but I really cannot say what took place

2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, 'I want so much money for meal,' I would have gone to the counter and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she could not get the money; or there might not have been money at the counter at the time; and in that case I would say 'Go over to William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him again.' I don't think there was any great breach of honesty in that.

2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion about the way in which those women supply themselves with provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that so?-Yes.

2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the greater part of it, in goods, I don't quite see as yet where the money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never complained to me about it.

2624. Don't they say, when they come to you and beg you to give them a little money rather than goods, that they must have something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom they ask for money.

2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?- These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For instance, there are the Sinclair girls.

2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that way?-Yes.

2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a little money.

2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don't know that I can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it may be accounted for.

2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that. They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country.

2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes.

2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting.

2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they were really in want.

2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor persons starving when I could help them.

2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that they don't like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know; but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as everywhere else.

2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the fall that we sell most.

2636. I don't mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well, the busy season is getting over.

[Page 58]

2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20 also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the 21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very busy.

2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out quite so many each day?-Perhaps not.

2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not been long in currency.

2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do that, but I thought it was better to give the people an acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them in.

2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no distinction.

2642. You cannot say that the one class of women get them more commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do.

2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses, Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d. due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle. I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get cash.

2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the time.

2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of goods.

2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson's evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s. shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a 30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.; dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d.

2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don't know what the retail dealer's charge for it would be.

2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes.

2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes.

2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one.

2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no profit?

2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value of the thing. We don't get our wool for barter; the wool costs us cash

2653. You allow something for interest on the price of the wool?-Yes. I say that is what I would have to pay for a shawl of that value in cash if I were buying it, or if I were trying to get it made.

2654. You would pay 26s. 6d., and you would sell it at 30s.?- Yes.

2655. Do you not call the 3s. 6d. a profit?-I do; but then in that case there is nothing else for a profit.

2656. You are supposing that you pay the 26s. 6d. in cash? If you were paying for the shawl in goods, would you pay 26s. 6d., or anything more?-If I were paying for it in goods, I would pay 30s. There might 6d. less or 6d. more; but as far as my experience goes of this kind of goods, and selling them at a wholesale price, I could not expect to realize a higher price for them than I pay, taking discounts and all together.

2657. What is the kind of evidence you are to give me to prove that there is no profit on a 30s. shawl which you pay for in goods?-I have no evidence to offer as to that.

2658. Except your trade list?-That would be taking a wide view of the thing. It would embrace the whole trade. The case I have given is a special one in contradiction of the statement made, which was a false one that a Shetland shawl could be made at that price.

2659. The list enables you to say what you sell the articles for, and you leave me to find out the price you pay from particular cases?-Yes; and if an examination of my books would help you in that, they are open to you. I am also prepared to give you the names of a number of women who would be able to tell you what prices they get for their goods.

2660. Can you give me any particular kind of goods which you think would be a fair test of that?-You may take the winter shawls, white, brown, and grey, natural colours, and straight borders.

2661. Do you think that would be a fair test?-I think it would.

2662. But there are no entries in your books which will show at what price you bought these shawls?-There may be. If a woman brings in a shawl, and gets so much goods at the time, then the balance only might be marked down, and that would be no guide to you; but at other times the whole price is marked.

2663. That is, where there are credit balances with people who come to you with shawls?-Yes.

2664. Which book will show that?-The day-book or women's ledger.

2665. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I don't think there is anything else.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT LINKLATER, examined.

2666. You carry on business as a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2667. You purchase hosiery, and you keep a stock of drapery goods, and tea, and other articles?-Yes. Tea is the only thing in the grocery line which I keep.

2668. Have you heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses?- Only of the last witness.

2669. Is the manner of conducting business in your establishment similar to that which has been described as being carried on in Mr. Sinclair's?-Very similar; there are some differences.

2670. You deal with knitters of two kinds-women who knit with your wool, and those who sell to you?-Yes.

2671. In both cases are the settlements usually made by means of goods which they take from you?-Yes, principally.

2672. In what proportion is money paid to women who knit with your wool?-I cannot say what the proportion may be.

[Page 59]

2673. But is there a much larger proportion of the prices taken in goods?-Yes, very much larger.

2674. Is it the general rule that it is to be paid in goods?-Yes, it is the understanding that goods are given out.

2675. And that any money that is paid is the exception?-Yes.

2676. Is the dealing with these women usually carried on by means of pass-books?-The greater number of the knitters whom I employ have pass-books.

2677. And these pass-books are transcripts of the accounts kept in your ledger?-Yes.

2678. You ledger, I presume, is kept on the principle of having a page for the account of each woman?-Yes; or sometimes a page for two.

2679. On the one side there are the entries of goods got by the woman, and on the other there are entered the payments due to her for knitting?-There is double money column which shows both the credit and debit on the same side.

2680. How many women do you generally employ to knit for you?-I could not say exactly; but I think there might be over 300.

2681. Are these scattered all over the island?-Yes, all over the country.

2682. Is it a subject of complaint with these women that they do not get payment for their work in money?-No; I have not heard much complaint about that.

2683. The understanding is, that the payment is to be in goods?- Yes, it is the understanding that goods are to be taken when the work is given out; but I give a good deal of money.

2681. Is it considered a matter of favour when a woman gets payment in money when she asks for it?-No, I don't think it.

2685. If a woman asks for money rather than goods, is it given to her as a matter of course?-As a matter of course.

2686. Is that done whenever she asks for money?-As far as my recollection goes, it is. The greater number of the knitters whom I employ live in the country, and they very seldom ask for money. When they come in with their work, I generally ask them what they want, and they select the goods which they require.

2687. Do you know Mrs. Jemima Brown or Tait?-Yes; her sister, Harriet Brown, is the only one I have in my books.

2688. Have you ever told Mrs. Tait, or any of her sisters, that you could not give them money, and that you never did it?-I don't remember doing that. I don't remember any money being asked by them.

2689. Is it likely you said that?-I don't think I said it. I don't think I would say it, if I had goods of hers in my hand.

2690. Did she knit with your wool?-Yes. I have no recollection of her asking for money and being refused.

2691. I suppose a knitter of that kind is not likely to ask for money unless there is a balance coming to her upon her account?-It is not likely, and I think there is rather a balance against her.

2692. Is it a probable thing that you may have refused to give her money?- I don't think I did so.

2693. May your shopman, Mr. Anderson, have done so?-Not so far as I know.

2694. Do you issue any kind of lines or acknowledgments for the balances upon sales made to you?-I give no lines.

2695. If a party comes and sells a shawl to you, and does not wish goods to the whole value of it, what is done?-I understand you to refer to goods bought over the counter; in that case I mark the balance down in a book. If they come with a shawl or any other article, and sell it over the counter, and if they don't wish goods to the whole value, I mark the balance down in any name that is given to me.

2696. In what way is that entered?-It is entered on the back of the day-book by itself.

2697. Is there a special place in the day-book for making entries of that kind?-Yes.

2698. They are put under the particular date?-Yes.

2699. And are these balances generally settled up within a short time afterwards?-Generally.

2700. The party comes back soon to you for goods?-Sometimes soon, and sometimes she delays a good while.

2701. Is it usual for a party who has a balance of that kind to ask to get it in cash?-No; that is not usual at all.

2702. When you buy a shawl in that way, do you consider it to be part of your bargain that the payment is to be taken in goods?- Yes; it is distinctly sold for goods in exchange, and paid for in that way.

2703. Is that because there is a distinct understanding to that effect prevailing among the people, or is it stated at the time when the bargain is made?-It is not stated at the time, but there is a distinct understanding that payment is to be taken in goods.

2704. Will you show me the way in which these balances are entered?-[Produces day-book.]. The entry is merely the name of the party and the amount left. I generally put the date upon the top of the page but not the date for each entry.

2705. Then all these entries at the end of the book are entries of balances due by you?-Yes.

2706. And when a party comes and gets the goods, the balance is marked as 'settled'?-Yes.

2707. Where there is a sum like 3s. 4d. or 7s. 101/2d. due, there must sometimes be a little difficulty in making it square exactly, is there not?-No difficulty whatever.

2708. Is there not a difficulty in getting the exact quantity of goods to answer to that balance?-No, I don't see any difficulty.

2709. The woman may want so many yards of cotton, or a pair of gloves, or a packet of tea, and she may bring up the sum to 7s. 6d. or 7s. 3d., there being 7s. 101/2d. due to her; in such a case, how do you square off the balance?-She always takes the full value of it when she comes to settle.

2710. If the goods she gets come to something more than the balance due to her, does she pay the rest in money?-If it comes to anything more, she either pays it in money, or she may have another piece of goods to sell.

2711. Suppose 7s. 101/2d. is the sum at her credit, and she takes various articles amounting to 7s. 7d., leaving 31/2d. over, might she not have some difficulty in selecting an article to cover that?-No, I don't find any difficulty in that at all.

2712. I suppose you or your shopman can suggest something very easily?-Well, there is always something required.

2713. Have you often been importuned by these women to pay them in money, because they could not supply themselves with the means of living unless they were paid for their work partly in cash?-No; there are many cases where cash is given.

2714. These are cases where the people were in circumstances to require it?-Yes.

2715. And I suppose you are acquainted with these cases?-Yes; I generally know the people who are actually requiring money when they ask for it.

2716. Do people often ask for money in that way?-Not often.

2717. Then there are few of them who are in circumstances to require money?-I should not say that. I think there are many of them who require money.

2718. Do you mean that many of them are in need of money payments for their knitting, in order to provide themselves with the necessaries of life?-In the town there are a good many who at particular seasons of the year have other ways of working outside as well as knitting.

2719. For these, do they get money payments?-Yes.

2720. Or they have friends with whom they live?-Yes; and in the country there are a great many who live with their parents.

2721. But there are some women who depend entirely upon their knitting for a living?-I believe there are.

[Page 60]

2722. You don't know any of them yourself?-I could not mark out any one.

2723. But when you do meet with a woman of that description, and have dealings with her, cash payments must sometimes be made?-Yes; it little cash.

2724. If she takes her goods from you and only little cash, how do you suppose she supplements her means of living?-Just in the way I have stated, by working outside at the proper season of the year.

2725. Is that in the fish-curing business?-There is fish-curing, but there is other work outside besides that.

2726. Do you agree with the preceding witness, that there are two prices for hosiery goods bought-a cash price, and a price when paid in goods?-I very seldom buy goods for cash.

2727. But if you were doing so, would you have two prices?-I would not give the same price in cash as in goods.

2728. Do you also agree with his statement, that where you buy a shawl or other Shetland hosiery for goods, you do not get any profit except the profit which you have upon the goods?-I would not say that.

2729. In pricing a shawl, do you allow a certain margin for your own profit?-There must be that; because we get a very great deal of bad stock, and a good many of the things lie on our hands for a considerable time before we can realize what they cost us, and therefore we must have a margin for profit.

2730. There has been a statement made, that a shawl which sells in the south for 30s. can be made in Shetland for 26s. 6d.; do you agree with that?-Yes; from about 25s. to 26s. 6d.

2731. You think that statement is about correct?-Yes.

2732. Is that the price you would give in cash for such a shawl?-I am not prepared to say that. Until a cash tariff comes in, I could not decidedly say what I would give for it.

2733. Is that because of the rarity of your dealings in cash?-It is not exactly that; I should think that there would be an ordinary profit.

2734. I am speaking of a shawl that would sell in the south for 30s.; would the price you give for that shawl in goods be 26s. 6d.?-No; would be nearer 30s. in goods, perhaps about 28s. 6d.

2735. And if you were to buy it for cash, the price would be from 25s. to 26s.?-Perhaps about 26s.

2736. Then, if a similar shawl were made by your own knitters, how would you calculate the cost of production? would you supply a certain amount of Shetland wool?-Yes.

2737. How much would it require?-I think it would require about 35 or 36 cuts at 4d.-12s.; 13s. for the knitting of the shawl, and 6d. for the dressing; making 25s. 6d. That is for a white shawl, without speaking of dyeing at all.

2738. Do you deal in the commoner hosiery?-Yes.

2739. Is the system pursued in that business the same as you have described?-Yes.

2740. There is no difference that you think worth referring to?- No.

2741. Do you agree generally with Mr. Sinclair on all the other points he has spoken to?-I do.

2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't remember anything else on which you incline to differ from him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined to differ from him.

2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl.

2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr. Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence.

2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl would cost me about 12s.

2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference of about 3s.

2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes.

2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for about that much less, or about 27s.

2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less.

2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?- Yes.

2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?- Yes.

2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much Shetland wool as we want.

2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own use.

2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost price when it comes to be bad stock.

2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction.

2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit.

2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them.

2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that with myself.

2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes; with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities than are required.

2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on.

2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting.

2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods, can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do so occasionally.

2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south, and sold as raw material.

2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves, and those who knit with the wool which we give out.

2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's underclothing and stockings.

2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more that occurs to me to say.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined.

2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am.

2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes.

2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell are tea and soap.

2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed.

2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in that way is mostly done by purchase.

2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with them is just kept in the day-book and ledger.

2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes.

2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and sometimes not.

2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase.

2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ. I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up. With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her knitting or not.

2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time. I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for money.

2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods, and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes.

2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it.

2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?- There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at present. I have never wrought up any of it.

2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we give it out upon the work that is brought in.

2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to give Scotch wool.

2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool.

2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is sometimes called Scotch wool too.

2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes.

2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form:

'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods. JAMES TULLOCH 3. 1. 72.'

There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line.

2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up.

2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows the private mark too, and he puts it there.

2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a matter of convenience for them that they are given at all.

2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes. Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes when we are in a hurry.

2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting; and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.

2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.

2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash a little with that, but I can easily explain it.

2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.