1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received in payment for your shawls?-Yes.

1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes.

1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No.

1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection.

1894. Do you knit to a large extent?-Yes; knit a good deal

1895. How much will you make in a month or in a week in that way?-I could not exactly say. It takes a good long time to make a nice shawl.

1896. Is it mostly shawls you make?-Yes.

1897. Will it take a month to make a shawl which is worth 1?- Yes. I have other things to do, and cannot keep constantly at it.

1898. But you do make one shawl a month or there about?-Yes.

1899. So that your dealings in that way will come perhaps 12 or 14 a year?-They will be more than that. I would reckon that they would be about 15.

1900. Would that all be your own knitting?-I could not say that. Perhaps I might get some one to help me a little with a shawl.

1901. But it would be mostly your own work?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET OLLASON, examined.

1902. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants in Lerwick?- No; I knit for myself, and I sell the goods.

1903. How are you paid for them?-I generally make articles for which I get an order.

1904. From whom?-From ladies who employ me.

1905. Have you never sold to merchants at all?-I have sometimes sold to Mr. Sinclair.

1906. When you sell to him, are you paid in money?-I have asked for part of both-money and goods-and I got it.

1907. You did not ask for the whole in money?-No.

1908. Why?-Just because I thought it was not the custom of the place.

1909. Did you want the whole in money?-No; I was requiring the goods at the time.

1910. Does it often happen that you sell articles to Mr. Sinclair in that way?-Yes; I sold him two shawls lately.

1911. How much of the price did you get in money?-The price of one of the shawls was 35s., and I got 17s. 6d. in money.

1912. Did you ask for that?-Yes.

1913. And you had no difficulty in getting it?-No. I sold the other shawl for 28s., and I got 8s. in money and 1 in goods.

1914. That was the arrangement that you wanted yourself?-Yes; I asked it.

1915. You wanted the goods?-Yes.

1916. Would you have made a better bargain by selling these shawls to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger visiting the place?-I got much the same price from Mr. Sinclair as I had been in the habit of getting.

1917. Do you sell to visitors, or to ladies in Lerwick, because you prefer to do that?-We sell to them because we are not requiring the goods.

1918. And you prefer to sell to them because you wish to get the money?-Yes.

1919. Do you live with your friends?-I live with my father.

1920. And you buy your own worsted?-Yes.

1921. Where do you buy it?-I get it from the North Isles,-from Yell.

1922. You get it from people who make it there?-Yes.

1923. Do you generally knit for ladies who have given you an order, or do you knit your shawl and then seek for a purchaser?- Sometimes I get an order for shawl and make it, and at other times I make one and keep it until I get an order.

1924. Is it considered among you who knit, to be a better way of living that you knit to ladies than to merchants?-Yes.

1925. Do you ever try to dispose of your shawls to visitors who come to Shetland in the summer?-No, I never did that, for I generally get orders for them as soon as I have them ready.

1926. Do you know that it is the practice to look out for visitors in summer, or to send shawls to places such as hotels or lodging-houses where they stay, in order to get buyers among them?-I know that is a common thing, but I have never done it.

1927. Is that done because it is a more profitable way of disposing of the goods than by selling them to the merchants?-I think that is the reason.

1928. Or is it done because they get money from the visitors or strangers?-I believe it is because they get money.

1929. Do you get as large a price from a visitor in money as you get from a merchant in goods?-Yes.

1930. Do you know that from your own experience?-Yes.

1931. You said you had sold a shawl for 35s. to Mr. Sinclair: if you had sold that shawl to a visitor, or to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger in the summer time, would you have got 35s. for it?-I would.

1932. Have you got that price for a shawl exactly the same?-Yes; I have got it from Dr. Hamilton in Bressay, who was requiring it for a lady.

1933. You sold another shawl for 28s. Could you have got as high a price in money from a visitor for it as you got in goods from the merchant?-Yes.

1934. You don't know that there are two prices for shawls, according as they are paid in money or in goods?-I don't know that, for I have not experienced it.

1935. Would you have given either of these two shawls you mentioned for a lower price if you had got the whole price of it in money?-No; I don't think [Page 38] I could have done it, for I thought the shawls were worth the price I put upon them.

1936. Don't you think you could have got a higher price than 35s. for that shawl from a visitor?-I don't think it.

1937. When you sold the shawl to Mr. Sinclair at that price, you knew that he was buying it for the purpose of selling it again: was the price which he gave you not something of a wholesale price?- It was just the price I would have asked any one for it, because it was just what I thought it was worth. The price I put upon it was just sufficient to pay me for my worsted and my work.

1938. But Mr. Sinclair must make his profit off the shawl when he purchased it in order to be re-sold, so that there may be two prices in that way: do you know anything about that?-No; I don't know anything about it.

1939. You thought you ought to get at least 35s. for the shawl, and you were prepared to take as much more as you could get?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA BOLT, examined.

1940. You are the wife of William Bolt who lives in Lerwick?- Yes.

1941. Are you in the habit of knitting Mr. Sinclair?-I knit for myself, but I sell my work to Mr. Sinclair.

1942. You have no pass-book in that way of dealing?-No.

1943. Did you hear Margaret Ollason's evidence?-Yes.

1944. Do you knit the same kind of goods as she does?-No; I generally knit veils and shawls to Mr. Sinclair.

1945. Do you deal in the same way as she has described?-Yes; something like the same.

1946. Do you sell to other people than Mr. Sinclair?-No; I generally sell everything have to him.

1947. When you go to him to sell your work, do you get payment in money or in goods?-In goods.

1948. Do you prefer that way of dealing; or do you want all money?-I generally require goods.

1949. Have you a family?-Yes; the goods were wanted for them.

1950. You don't get provisions there: you provide them otherwise?-Yes.

1951. Do you sometimes ask for money from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes, I have asked for money, and I got it when I asked it. I have not sold anything to any other shop for the last fifteen years.

1952. Would you prefer to get money if you could?-I don't know. If I were getting money, I would just have to buy goods with it, so that the goods are the same to me as money.

1953. Do you know that any one can get money for their goods if they want it?-I know there are plenty who get it.

1954. But can any one get whatever money they require for their goods?-I don't know. I only know that there are many who want money; but for my own part, I generally ask for goods, and I get them; and if I require a little money, I always get it.

1955. Do you sometimes get lines?-Yes; and worsted to knit, which is the same as money.

1956. If you are in want of worsted, do you buy it from Mr. Sinclair in payment for your shawls?-Yes.

1957. Do you keep any account, or do you just deal across the counter?-I just get the things as I want them.

1958. You go to the shop and say you want so much worsted as part of what you are taking?-Yes.

1959. Do you get it at the ordinary price?-Yes; it is just the same price.

1960. Does your sister-in-law, Mrs. James Bolt, deal in the same way?-Yes; in the same manner.

1961. And, altogether with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. We always knit together, and what hosiery we have we always sell to him.

1962. Do you buy the worsted from Mr. Sinclair exactly in the same way as you would buy a piece of cotton or a dress?-Yes; just the same.

1963. The price of the worsted is reckoned up as part of the price of the shawl that you are selling?-Yes. We get it on a line the same as the other goods.

1964. Of course: there is no writing: it is just a transaction across the counter unless there is a line?-Yes.

1965. But if you have a line, and bring it back to the shop in order to get goods, do you get worsted for it just as you get any other goods?-Yes; I have got worsted on a line.

1966. Do you know that these transactions are all entered in Mr. Sinclair's book?-Yes.

1967. You have seen that done?-Yes.

1968. The worsted is entered there as well as the other things?- Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. WILHELMINA BOLT, examined.

1969. Have you anything different to say about the way in which you knit and deal in your hosiery business from what you have heard stated by your sister-in-law?-No; I have nothing more to say.

1970. You agree with her in everything?-Yes.

1971. And there is no difference or addition that you can state?- No.

1972. Have you asked for money and got all you wanted?-Yes; I never asked for money and did not get it. When I had a line from Mr. Sinclair, I just got the same goods from him upon it as I would have got for money.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS HELEN FLAUS, examined.

1973. Are you a dresser in Lerwick?-I dress a little and I knit a little.

1974. Did you hear the evidence which Mrs. Arcus gave to-day?- Yes.

1975. Do you do business in the same way that she described?- Much the same.

1976. Do you dress shawls for some of the knitters in Lerwick?- Yes.

1977. And you take ready money for that?-Yes.

1978. Do they sell the shawls direct to the merchants themselves?-Yes.

1979. Do you also dress shawls for knitters from the country?- Yes.

1980. Do you sell these shawls, or do you return them to the girls who bring them to you?-I sometimes sell them, and sometimes they sell them.

1981. When you sell them to the merchants, do you get ready money or lines, or do you get goods for the girls?-I get lines from those merchants who give lines, and those who give no lines mark them down in their books.

1982. Who gives you the lines?-Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Laurenson generally is the only other merchant I sell to and he marks them down in his own book. He does not give lines.

1983. You don't sell to any of the other merchants?-Sometimes I do.

1984. Do you sell to Mr. Johnston?-Not very much.

1985. Does he give you a line when you sell to him for a country girl?-Yes.

1986. Do you sell to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, occasionally. He does not give lines; he marks the articles down in his book.

[Page 39]

1987. How does he know the girl for whom the shawl has been sold, when he only marks it in the book?-I give in the girl's name to him, and she goes and asks for the amount that is marked in her name, and gets it.

1988. If she knows the amount?-I tell her the amount.

1989. Then she knows the amount, and that is sufficient to identify her?-Yes.

1990. Do these country girls sometimes ask you to get money for them rather than goods?-No; they have never asked me to do that.

1991. Do they sometimes get part of their payment in money?-I cannot tell about that. They always get a line from me, and I cannot tell how the merchants and they settle.

1992. Do you know whether lines are sometimes given for the goods which are sold by the knitters in town?-I cannot say anything about that.

1993. Or which are sold by yourself?-No; I don't know anything about that myself.

1994. You never took lines for the shawls you knitted yourself?- No; not for my own goods.

1995. Do you sometimes sell to strangers, or to people who are not in the trade?-No; I have never done that.

1996. I suppose you meet with people who knit a good deal, and have a number of transactions with them?-Yes.

1997. Do you know whether they prefer to sell to strangers, or to merchants in town?-Sometimes they require money, and at other times they require goods as well as money; and they would then just as well have the goods as the money.

1998. But if they want the money, can they not have it from the merchants if they ask for it?-I always got it when I asked it. For any others, I cannot say.

1999. Do you dress goods for any of the merchants?-No.

2000. Only for the knitters?-Yes.

2001. You are never employed by the merchants at all?-No.

2002. Can you tell me; why there is not a system of paying always in money for the hosiery?-Because it has not been a customary thing, and they never ask it.

2003. Would it not be just as convenient for all parties to pay in money?-I don't think it. I think we may just as well have the goods.

2004. But if you had the money, it would be better for the knitters, would it not; because they could buy what goods they wanted? They might have to hand the money back across the counter, but they would be able to make their own bargain for what they bought?-Yes; but they would get a less price for their shawls.

2005. How do you know that?-It is so stated.

2006. Who states it?-They generally say that if they get money, they will not get so much as in goods.

2007. Do you mean that the merchants say that?-Yes; when we sell shawls for money, they say they will not give so much for them in money as in goods.

2008. Who has told you that?-The merchants.

2009. Has that often been said to you?-Not often; but it has been said.

2011. Who has said it?-Mr. Sinclair: I sold shawl to him last night.

2012. And he told you last night that he would give you more in goods for it than he would give in money?-Yes, than he could give in money.

2013. What was the price of that shawl?-I got 15s. for it.

2014. Did you take that in goods?-Yes.

2015. Or in a line?-In goods.

2016. In goods that you took away at the time?-Yes.

2017. What would you have got if you had sold your shawl for money?-I cannot exactly say. He did not particularize that.

2018. You did not go into particulars, because you wanted the goods?-Yes.

2019. Do you sometimes sell goods that you get from the merchants?-No; for I always require them for myself.

2020. Is it the practice for some of the knitters to sell the goods they get?-I cannot say; I never saw it done.

2021. You never bought any goods from a knitter which she had got in that way?-No, never.

2022. You are always paid in cash for your own dressing?-Yes.

2023. Do you think the knitters generally would be content with lower prices if they got paid in cash?-I cannot speak for any one but myself.

2024. You don't know the feelings of the girls deal with you from the town?-I do not.

2025. Do you know how most of these girls are provided with their food?-I cannot say. Occasionally the girls don't require money.

2026. Is it not the case that a number of single women live in rooms in and knit for a living?-I cannot say, because I am not much acquainted through the place.

2027. You do not know the private circumstances of your customers?-I do not.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA MOUAT, examined.

2028. Where do you live?-I live in Girlsta, parish of Tingwall.

2029. Are you a married woman?-Yes

2030. Is your husband alive?-Yes, he is at Leith; but I have had nothing from him for five years. I live by my own knitting; and that is what has made me so anxious to come here.

2031 Have you any family?-I have only one son. He is sailing out of Leith.

2032. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.

2033. Where do you buy it?-I buy it mostly from my friends- some of it from my brother.

2034. Is your brother a farmer near where you live?-Yes.

2035. Do you pay him for the wool?-Yes.

2036. To whom do you sell your hosiery goods?-I always sold them to Mr. Spence before he went away. I made fancy stockings and knitted gloves, and things of that kind.

2037. You don't knit the fine hosiery; it is all stockings and gloves and mittens you do?-Yes, and men's frocks. I made them for Mr. Spence, but since he went away I have been very poorly off.

2038. He was a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2039. Did he keep a shop here?-Yes.

2040. The same kind of shop as is kept by Mr. Sinclair and Mr. Linklater?-No. He had not so much goods in his shop, as Mr. Sinclair has, but he sometimes gave me money when I wanted it- either money or goods.

2041. Does his sister carry on the business for him now?-Yes.

2042. Do you sell to her?-No; she is not buying anything.

2043. How were you paid for your goods?-Just middling.

2044. Were you paid in money or in goods?-Either in money or goods.

2045. If you brought a lot of articles: and asked Mr. Spence to buy them, he would fix a price; and if the price suited you, you gave him the articles?-Yes.

2046. Did he pay you money across the counter?-Yes.

2047. Were you ever obliged to take goods from him?-Yes; many a time.

[Page 40]

2048. Did he tell you he would not give you money?-No; he did not say that.

2049. What did he say?-He just gave me anything I wanted- sometimes money and sometimes goods.

2050. He never told you that he did not want to give you money?-Sometimes he did so. Sometimes he was very unwilling to give money, but he did give it.

2051. Was that pretty often?-No; not very often. My articles were always good.

2052. Did you sometimes ask him to give you money when you did not get it?-Yes.

2053. Is it long since he left the business?-I have never sold anything to him since the month of July.

2054. Who do you sell to now?-I have sent what articles I have made since to my son in the south, and he has sold them in Leith.

2055. Do you get as good a price for them there as you used to get from Mr. Spence?-No.

2056. But your son sends you money for the goods you send to him?-Yes; he always sends me money, and his shipmates buy what I make.

2057. Do many women knit that sort of goods that you deal in- stockings and gloves?-A great many.

2058. Is it mostly that kind of knitting that is carried on in your part of the country at Girlsta?-Yes.

2059. They don't knit fine work there?-No.

2060. Who buys the sort of work they make?-Most of the merchants do so.

2061. Do the people in your part of the country generally get payment in goods?-Yes.

2062. Or in money?-No; they never ask for money.

2063. Why?-Because the country people are not needing it.

2064. Do they not need money?-Yes they need money; but when they get the goods the same they always ask the goods.

2065. You think there would no use getting money for your knitting, and just handing it back across the counter the next minute for goods?-I suppose that is what they think; but they would be better if they could get the money.

2066. Can they not get it?-Not very well.

2067. Why?-Because the merchants are not willing to give it.

2068. I thought you said the country people did not get money because they did not want it?-Well, sometimes there is no use of them getting it, and giving it back again to the merchant they are dealing with; they might just as well have the goods, because they have plenty of meal and other things to serve their ends, and they are not like us, who have to buy everything. We would be glad of the money sometimes to buy things that the merchant does not have, or to pay our rent with; but the country people have plenty of these things, and it is only goods they are wanting, and that is the reason why they take them.

2069. Then you have no reason to complain of this system of paying in goods?-We have to complain of it many a time.

2070. Why do you complain?-Because if we had money it could answer for other things, and in other ways than when we get goods; but we cannot get it.

2071. Is it a common subject of complaint in the country, that you cannot get money?-It is every one's complaint; and when we get articles, we are sorry to have to part with them for perhaps half-price.

2072. Do you sometimes sell the articles which you get at the shops?-Yes. I am in the habit of making very good things, and I am very sorry sometimes that I have to give them away at so low a price.

2073. But suppose you come into town and get goods in return for your knitting, have you sometimes to sell these goods again?-No; I have not done that.

2074. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY ANN SINCLAIR, examined.

2075. You knit for Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

2076. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.

2077. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.

2078. You just settle for the work as you take it back each time?- Yes.

2079. Are you generally paid in money or in goods?-Part in both.

2080. Do you knit shawls or veils?-Mostly veils.

2081. How many veils will you take to him in a week?-I could not exactly say. There are four of us besides me.

2082. Do you all knit for Mr. Sinclair?-There is one who knits besides me, and another dresses.

2083. Does she dress only your own knitting, or does she take in other people's knitting to dress too?-She dresses what she gets to do for other people.

2084. Does she do a good deal in that way for other people?-Yes.

2085. You cannot tell me how many veils you take: to Mr. Sinclair in a week?-We might do three in week, each of us, if we were able to work constantly at it.

2086. Do you work at anything else?-Nothing else-only veils; but we are so often in trouble, that I could hardly tell you how many we do in a week. There are three sisters and one brother of us alive now: my father and mother are dead.

2087. Is your brother a fisherman?-No; he is in a shop.

2088. You are not a married woman?-No.

2089. How much will you get for your veils when you take a lot of them to Mr. Sinclair? Are they sold at 1s. each?-It is generally very fine veils that we knit, and we get 1s. 6d. each for them.

2090. How many do you take at a time to the shop?-Perhaps a dozen, or perhaps two dozen.

2091. If you take a dozen, that would be 18s. worth?-Yes.

2092. How much of that will you get in money?-Our rent is paid from the knitting. That, of course, is money.

2093. You have to get as much as will pay your rent?-Yes.

2094. How do you get your provisions?-We get money whenever we ask it, besides what is taken for our rent.

2095. Are you tenants of Mr Sinclair?-Yes.

2096. You have a house from him, and he keeps your rent off what you have to get for your knitting?-Yes; and we have sometimes to get as high as 5s. a week from him, and we always get it.

2097. That is, for your living?-Yes.

2098. Do you get as much money in payment for your veils as you require?-Yes; as much as we ask for.

2099. Will you manage to take a dozen veils to him in the course of a fortnight?-Yes; or perhaps a dozen in three weeks.

2100. You are speaking both of your sisters and yourself?-Yes.

2101. How much of that 18s. as a general thing, will you get in money?-I can hardly say. If we were to ask money weekly we would get it: but since our brother's wages were raised, we have not asked so often for money.

2102. That is to say, you have spent more of the produce of your knitting in goods-in clothing?-Yes.

2103. Have you ever had to sell any of the goods that you got at the shop?-No.

2104. Or tea?-No.

2105. You don't knit any for selling, and you never did?-No.

2106. Do you think you would be any better off if you got all the price of your knitting in money?-I don't think it, because if I got it in money I would just lay it down on the counter and get goods for it.

2107. That is to say, you would get the same quantity of goods that you get now?-Yes. Of course I would not take the money and go to another shop with it.

[Page 41]

2108. Mr. Sinclair recommended you to come here today?-Yes; he said he thought I should come.

2109. How much did you get for knitting your last shawl?-I think we got 2, 10s. for our last shawl. [, 2, 15s.] Yes, it was 2, 15s.

2110. That was a remarkably large one, I suppose?-Yes it was very fine.

2111. It was knitted by you and your sisters?-Yes.

2112. How long ago was that?-It was in the month of April or May, I think.

2113. How much of that did you get in money?-It was just marked in to our account, and we got the money as we asked for it.

2114. You did not tell me before that was the way in which you dealt?-I thought I did. You asked me if I had a pass-book, and I said it was just marked into the book.

2115. I rather understood that a settlement was made with you each time you took in your work?-No, we have an account.

2116. And that 2, 15s. was marked into it?-Yes.

2117. You did not take any goods at that time?-I hardly think it; but I really forget.

2118. Did you get any money at that time?-I don't think it.

2119. Did you ask for money?-No; and it was merely because I did not ask for it that I did not get it.

.

Lerwick: Thursday, January 4, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

ARTHUR LAURENSON, examined.

2120. You are a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., Shetland warehousemen and clothiers in Lerwick?-I am.

2121. That is the oldest house in that business in Shetland, is it not?-I believe it is.

2122. The other partner of the house is your brother-in-law, Mr. William Bruce Tulloch?-Yes.

2123. You succeeded your father in the business?-Yes. I was in business with him for a good many years before his death.

2124. Besides carrying on that business, you also act as a trustee or factor?-Yes; in bankruptcies. I am also treasurer for the Shetland Widows' Fund under Anderson's Trust.

2125. And in that capacity you have the management of a considerable income to be devoted to charitable purposes?-Yes; I am a member of the local committee. There are three other gentlemen on the committee. And I am also treasurer, and have been so for a long time. I was appointed by Mr. Anderson in his lifetime, and I have always been so since.

2126. In the Shetland hosiery business you get the goods from the women knitters, who I believe are of two classes: those who knit for you, and those who sell to you?-Yes. There are those who bring the article and just exchange it over the counter. The greater part of our business now consists in the exchanging of goods, rather than in the employing of women to knit for us. Some years ago we were more in that way than we are now. Our principal business now just consists in buying their own productions, or rather, I should say, in the exchanging of them.

2127. By using the word exchanging, what is it that you mean to imply?-I mean to make a difference between that and buying for actual cash. If I were using the word, buying, it might convey the idea that we pay cash down. When I say exchanging, I mean that they bring us the article, and we give them other articles in exchange for it.

2128. By that you mean to imply that the transaction is understood as a barter?-Precisely.

2129. What is the character of the stock that you keep?-Drapery articles altogether, and general soft goods. The only grocery goods we keep are tea and soap.

2130. And the exchanges which you make with your customers for their hosiery are of drapery goods, tea, and soap?-Yes.

2131. Are these purchases made chiefly from women who live in Lerwick, or from women who come from the country?-Part of both. We deal principally with women from the country. The Lerwick women only make fine goods, such as shawls and veils, as a rule, although some of them do make underclothing too.

2132. That practice of barter has, I understand, been of long continuance in Shetland?-Long before my memory. I suppose, as Mr. Walker humorously remarked in his evidence, it has probably prevailed since the days of Adam.

2133. Is any proportion of the payment now made in cash?- Sometimes it is; and that custom, I think, is a growing one. When I first came into the business with my father, it was, I may say, an unheard of thing to give any cash at all,-such a thing was not thought of or expected by the women; but now for a good many years-I should say for ten or twelve years-the custom has begun to give a certain portion of the price in cash, and it seems to be gradually increasing,-that is to say, each year we are paying more in cash than we did in the previous year.

2134. Is that because more cash is asked?-Perhaps it may be, and it may also be from a greater readiness on the part of the dealers to give it. I don't mean to say, by any means, that it is the rule to make cash payments; but I say that the custom of making occasional cash payments, at any rate, is getting more common.

2135. Are you speaking from your experience your own business, or do you speak generally?-I am speaking of my own experience, but I presume that will be the experience of others in the trade as well.

2136. Formerly people did not use to ask for money at all?-No. When I went first into the business it was never thought of.

2137. At that time was the trade one of purchase, or was it one of manufacturing for the merchant?-I think it was pure barter.

2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the dates, so far as I recollect them.

2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery of different sorts.

2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's wear.

2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles, and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different styles.

2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is asked?-I am.

2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no recollection of doing so for a good many years back.

2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me, because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.

2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or myself would fix the prices.

2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?- No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my brother-in-law.

2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.

2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.

2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.

2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much, if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father. She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.

2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she sold it and got the cash for it.

2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.

2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses.

2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.

2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come from the same person, or from a person who had been long employed by us.

2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.

2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was her own material and her own article altogether. I have just mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.

2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum: there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately, within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one. The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I don't think she would be employing herself in that way.

2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum, though I could not just identify her at present.

2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does not knit to me.

2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of anything of the kind.

2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm of R.B. Laurence & Co.

2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know.

2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr. Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co.

2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware. He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a grocer and baker.

2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction, that might enable me to remember it.

2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.

2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?- Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash down for particular shawls worth 2 or 2, 10s. I have given as much as 5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very special article.

2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.

2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary for the woman to make any particular representation as to her wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for cash, and so the price was fixed.

2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted, there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery trade.

2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.

2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.

2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the 17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her, because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in paying her rent, or anything of that kind.

2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at all times to get drapery goods.

2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us, as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.

2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system, although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another description,-for this reason, that these goods of another description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing to pay anything in cash.

2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly; because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods, and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as in drapery goods, in many cases.

2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers, and also to the women knitters.

2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated, antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it changed.

2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be better for the women to be always paid in cash.

2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked. They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just as they pleased.

2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.

2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been examined on previous days with regard to that.

2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes; hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the counter.

2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?- Yes, to both.

2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system, there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods. That is known and understood on both sides.

2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is included in that.

2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule, that all the goods which the women take they are actually requiring.

2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct, since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards.

2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to yesterday.

2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and accumulate.

2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices, whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?- They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no prospect of selling these articles for a year or so.

2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size, and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike in Shetland.

2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?- We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such houses who generally deal in Shetland goods.

2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact, restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south.

2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market. We don't have such a large market.

2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which they have another profit?-Exactly.

2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men, we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount off; that is to say, with 10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for 10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to get a profit on the hosiery also.

2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for 10 you would sell to a merchant in the south for 10, and give him 5 per cent. discount besides?-Yes.

2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid the 10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on them, which is more that 5 per cent.

2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the goods amounting to 10, for which we have got the hosiery. Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the hosiery afterwards for 10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we still have 10 per cent. for our trouble.

2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay 5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them, because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit.

2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash payments.

2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be more business-like, and a simpler plan.

2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so.

2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think

2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite ready.

2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it.

2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed.

2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is, that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the present state and a new system of cash payments there would require to be some sort of agreement.

2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade. We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of them have pass-books.

2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able to give any information that may be wanted on that subject.

2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken.

2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but I cannot say from memory how many there are.

2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them.

2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is stated there [produces book].

2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book.

2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes.

2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for that purpose.

2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance stands against a woman you have to look back to where the balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the shop-woman and her.

2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that book?-No; the girl knows them all.

2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?- Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people, and it shows that we have very few of them.

2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D. means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d.

2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff, and then the balance is carried forward.

2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s. or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it was for.

2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be another balance.

2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line, there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered separately. She has been back since then, because the work which she got out at that time has been returned.

2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.' The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane.

2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not to have worsted of her own.

2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what she got for that work.

2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things which are entered there, she might have got some things when she was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon the whole.

2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the only one in which entries are made of any transactions with workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it.

2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all.

2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is very seldom any of them have very much to get.

2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods, do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26- Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d. has been got afterwards.

2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s. 6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it.

2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she has that to get just now.

2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry made of the new work which she had got.

2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford. They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one.

2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz. black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes.

2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl does not seem to have been requiring anything.

2243. You don't know whether that girl asked for money?-I don't know; but the shop-girl would be able to tell.

2244. You have no doubt that if she had asked for it, she would have got it?-If she had asked for it, she would have got it; but, as I have said before, it had been so long the custom not to pay money, that they did not ask it, not expecting to get it.

2245. Do you say that your profit upon your drapery goods is calculated at about 15 per cent.?-I should say about 15 to 25 per cent.; that is the ordinary retail profit over all.

2246. Supposing you were to make a profit upon your hosiery goods, what profit would you expect to get from your drapery goods?-I understand that in the south the profit in the drapery trade is generally estimated at 15 per cent. on an average.

2247. And you make it vary here, according to the different goods, at from 15 to 25 per cent.?-Yes.

2248. Is that in order to cover your risk upon the hosiery?-Yes; I should say so. It would be much better for us to sell for cash down, with a smaller price, than to sell at a higher nominal price, and to lie out of the money for perhaps a couple of years, and perhaps run the risk of making a bad debt with the hosiery. I may add that we sometimes do make bad debts to a pretty large amount. Some years ago I lost 150 by one customer.

2249. Was he a purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.

2250. Show me any entry in this book relating to a shawl made for you?-There [showing] is 7 oz. black, which was given to a woman for a shawl which she is at present making. Here is another, Mary Greig, who made a black shawl, and returned it.

2251. Does the book show how much was the payment usually got for the making of it?-She came back on 23d January, and she is credited with the amount. She had 2s. to get when she got the work to do.

2252. And she has now 7s.; but the difference between 2s. and 7s. does not show the payment to her?-No; because she might have got more goods at the time, and there would be nothing put down in the book then except the actual balance.

2253. You don't know what goods she got?-No; but I have no doubt the shop-girl will be able to tell.

2254. Can you tell me what payment would be made to a worker of that kind for such a shawl?-I think perhaps 10s. It depends a good deal on the size of thread and on the style of knitting. Of two shawls of the same size, and having the same weight of wool in them, one may be worth 2s. 6d. more for knitting than another, on account of the pattern the girl might put into it, and the style in which it was done.

2255. Then that shawl would be sent south, I presume?-We might sell it here.

2256. What do you consider the value of the material for that shawl, 9 oz.?-That black worsted would have cost us in England about 8s. a pound.

2257. Then the worsted would come to about 4s. 6d. as the value of the material?-Yes.

2258. And 10s. for the work: that would be 14s. 6d.?-Yes.

2259. And 6d. for dressing, or 15s. altogether?-Yes.

2260. At what price would that shawl be invoiced to a customer in the south?-It would depend upon whether it was to a wholesale house or to a retail customer. We have to sell these goods at a lower price to wholesale houses in the south, who have again to sell them, than we would sell them for to others.

2261. In that way there are two classes of customers?-Yes.

2262. Who are your principal correspondents in the south?-[The witness shows the names in a book.] This is the day-book, which we use exclusively for our transactions in hosiery with the south. That book has just been finished. The last entry is 6th November 1871, and since then our entries as to hosiery sent south have gone into our ordinary shop day-book: we have not provided a separate book for them.

2263. You say that you have two classes of customers, wholesale and retail?-Yes; we have wholesale customers, such as these houses whose names I have pointed out to you. We also sell to private persons, and of course we must make a difference. We must sell to these wholesale houses at a much less figure, because they have again to sell them perhaps to the very same retail customers.

2264. At what price would that shawl of Mary Greig's be invoiced to the south?-It is not away yet but I think I will be able to find some of the same [Page 46] kind. It is very difficult to say what it would be, because there is such a difference in the quality of the worsted, and the price of the raw material differs a good deal. For instance, here is black Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound, and here is black mohair wool, 27s. a pound. It would cost us roughly about 2s. an oz.; but that shawl, I should say, would be of Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound. That [showing an entry of a shawl invoiced to a house in London at 20s.] would be something like it. I may mention that an account like that won't be paid for eighteen months, and then it will be paid with a discount of 5 per cent.

2265. Is that a fair specimen of the average sales of shawls?-Yes.

2266. And the average difference between the cost for materials and workmanship?-Yes.

2267. Do you pay the freight?-The consignee pays the freight.

2268. Is this day-book a copy of your invoices which you send to these houses?-Yes. In some cases we copy the invoices in a letter-book, and then re-write them into this day-book. I can produce the letter-book if you wish to see it.

2269. Does not that difference between the price marked in the book and the price you have to pay for materials and workmanship show something in the shape of profit?-Yes, undoubtedly.

2270. Then how do you reconcile that with your previous statement, that there is really no profit upon your hosiery?-I don't think I meant to say that there really was not a profit. What I meant to say was, that, as a rule we would be very well pleased, on an average of all our hosiery goods, just to get what we pay for them. Of course, if you take out a special article here and there, the rule might not hold good; but I think, on the whole, you will find the result to be as I stated.

2271. Do you make any distinction, in your statement with regard to profits, between those cases where an article has been made for you and those in which it has been purchased by you?-I think, as a rule, the articles which we purchase or exchange over the counter are generally sold by us just for what we have paid for them. The others we have a good deal more trouble about. The raw material has to be ordered, and the money paid for it pretty soon; and then it has to be given out, and these accounts kept, and the articles have to be dressed. In fact we have three or four times the trouble about articles of that description which we have with regard to articles that we buy in exchange.

2272. Do you make that profit upon the goods made to your order, by charging a higher price to your customer in the south, or by paying a smaller rate to the women who knit for you?-The rate we pay the work-women here depends on what the other dealers in town are paying. I suppose we all pay much about the same rates.

2273. But I don't see how the same articles if made by one of your own work-women, can be charged at a different price to your customer in the south from what it would be if it were purchased by you across the counter?-As I have said, we have much more trouble with it.

2274. But the customer in the south fixes the price; and you cannot give articles that are really the same in quality at a different price, in consequence of the way in which they have come into your hands?-No; but on some articles we must have less profit than on others, and we must just make the one balance the other.

2275. But your customer would object to take two identical articles at different prices?-No doubt he would; but such articles as these black shawls we never buy over the counter. In fact I don't think I ever did buy one in that way; they are always made to order. We bring in the raw material, and the women knit it up. The material of which these black shawls are made is not Shetland wool. The women don't have it. Of course they could get it if they chose to buy it in the shops: we would sell it to them just the same as anything else.

2276. Do you purchase stockings?-Yes.

2277. You don't have them made?-No; they are all bought over the counter.

2278. Are they generally paid for in goods?-Yes; I may say universally.

2279. Are they made by the people in the country rather than by those in Lerwick?-There are very few made in Lerwick; all the hosiery proper is made in the country districts. When I speak of the hosiery proper, I mean stockings.

2280. What do you call the other kind?-Under-clothing. Articles such as shawls, veils, neckties, and the like, we call fancy work. Then there is under-clothing-men's under shirts, gentlemen's drawers, ladies sleeve, ladies' under-dresses, ladies' drawers ladies' spencers, which are worn under the clothing.

2281. I see in your day-book a charge for half dozen white veils, 12s., that is, 2s. each: is not 2s. a high price for veils?-It depends very much on the quality.

2282. Would that be an average quality?-No; it is a good quality.

2283. Were these purchased or made to order?-I could not say as to that particular lot. The best veils may be specially made or they may be bought. We very often buy veils in the ordinary retail way over the counter, and give 2s. 6d. for them; but these would be particularly well knitted.

2284. Do you give so much as 2s. 6d. for veils?-Yes, for the finest quality.

2285. Then these 2s. veils were sent to a retail house?-Yes; but of course they are buying from us, and we are selling to them, and they get 5 per cent. off that.

2286. What might be the price of these veils to you?-Perhaps 18d. or 20d.

2287. Is there anything else that you wish to state about the hosiery trade?-Nothing that I recollect of, particularly; but I may perhaps be allowed to refer to some of the answers given to questions by the witnesses who were examined before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,156, Mr. George Smith is asked, 'Who supplies them (the knitters) with the wool?'-and he replies, 'That is a very difficult question. They get it chiefly from the small farmers, and sometimes from the merchants?'-I don't see why Mr. Smith should have said that that was a difficult question. There was no difficulty in it whatever.

2288. Where do the knitters generally get their wool?-In the case of the country girls, their families sometimes have sheep running on the scattald, and the wool is their own property, and is spun by some member of the family.

2289. Are there people in the country who collect wool from a number of families and give it out to spin?-I believe, in some districts of the country, there are dealers who buy up the wool and sell it out again as wool. I was to say that the knitters can buy it from them also, or from their neighbours. These are the three ways in which they can get it.

2290. Is the greater part of the wool that is used in Shetland of native production?-Yes; the greater part of it is, except the Bradford and English manufactured wools, principally black mohair and alpaca.

2291. Is much of that sold to women who knit on their own account?-I do not know if there is much sold; but in my own case, if they came to me wanting it, and I had it in stock, they should have it, whether they paid for it in cash or got it put to their account.

2292. If a woman came to you and sold a shawl, and wanted part of the price of it in worsted, would she get it without any demur?-Certainly.

2293. Do you know whether objections are made by any of the merchants to that being done?-I have seen it stated in the evidence that there are such objections.

2294. But, apart from the evidence before this Commission, do you know from your own knowledge, or from the statements of people in Shetland, whether there has been a difficulty in getting worsted for knitting in that way?-Yes, I have heard that.

2295. Do you know from what that difficulty arises?[Page 47]-I do not; unless it is because the dealer thinks that worsted is an article on which he does not have so much profit as on other goods, and is unwilling to give it.

2296. There has been no difficulty of that kind in your shop at any time?-No, none.

2297. Is there any reason why, in dealing with knitters, worsted should be called a money article or a ready-money article, which was only sold to them for money?-The Shetland worsted, which is generally spun in the north isles, in North Yell and Unst, is almost always bought and paid for in cash. It has always been the custom, at least for many years,-I should say for fifteen years,- that when the women come down from the north isles with worsted and sell it either to private persons or in the shops, they are paid for it in cash at the rate of 3d. or 31/2d. or 4d. per cut of nominally 100 threads, which in reality, when counted, runs to 80 or 90. I have seen a cut of worsted for which you paid 8d. supposed to be 100 threads, which when counted was only found to be 55; but that was an extreme case.

2298. But that wool is obtained by merchants or other persons who want it, from Shetland women coming mostly from the north isles?-Yes; where it is principally manufactured.

2299. Is the price of it always paid to them in cash?-As a rule, it is. Perhaps there may be exceptions, but, as a rule, it is paid in cash.

2300. Is that assigned in the trade as a reason why, when it is sold out to other women, it should be paid for by them in cash?-I should say that that was the reason, because there would be no profit on it otherwise. For instance worsted for which a dealer paid 31/2d. a cut would be sold by him at the same price; and if he gave it in exchange for goods, he might be out of his money for weeks or months.

2301. Does he not get more than 31/2d. for it when selling it?-I don't think it. There is a sort of fixed price for the various qualities of it.

2302. Does he not make a profit on retailing it?-No; I think not. He would either refuse to sell it at all, or give it at the price at which he bought it.

2303. Then his purchase of the worsted must have been made primarily for the use of the knitters employed by him?-Yes, I believe so.

2304. So that selling it to those women who knit on their own account would be a little out of his ordinary way of business?- Yes.

2305. He does not profess to get it for that purpose?-No. It is the raw material brought in by him or bought by him for his own uses.

2306. Is it wool or worsted you are speaking of?-Worsted. Before it is carded and spun we call it wool; after it is carded and spun we call it worsted.

2307. It is brought in the shape of worsted?-Yes.

2308. So that all you have been speaking of is really worsted?- Yes.

2309. Is much of that sent south from Shetland by the merchants in the shape of worsted?-Not much, I should say. It is more profitable, of course, for dealers and knitters to make it up, as all the raw material would come to would be comparatively trifling.

2310. Then you are not in the habit of sending it south in the shape of worsted?-No. In fact it is difficult to get. Sometimes we get an order for a small quantity for the south, for darning purposes. When a customer orders a dozen or two dozen socks, he will ask for some worsted along with them for that purpose; but it is not easy sometimes to get that for him. I was to refer to one or two other questions in the previous evidence. In question 44,289 Mr. Walker is asked, 'These merchants have no hold over them as being their tenants?'-and he replies, 'Not in the town, except in very few instances; not as a rule.' Now I don't know what instances he refers to. For my own part, I cannot imagine how any of us Lerwick dealers can have any hold on the Lerwick knitters, because they can come to us or any other body, just as they please.

2311. None of them are your tenants?-No; but even if they were, I don't think it would matter.

2312. If their rent were in arrear, would the merchant not have a hold over them?-He, as their landlord, would just have the same redress as any other landlord would have. Then the next question is, 'Is it considered a lucrative business?-Oh ! immensely so.'

2313. You have already made a statement with regard to that answer; at least you have explained what the profit is?-Yes; but he says, 'I know for a fact, that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s.' Now that is quite incorrect, because with the very lowest price of worsted the cheapest would be at least 4s. 6d.; but for a shawl selling at 30s. the worsted of it would certainly cost me 10s.

2314. Do you mean the worsted of any shawl that would sell for that in the south market or to a south country merchant?-Yes, or to any customer here. We sell a good many of these shawls to ladies in Lerwick, or to any people who come in to buy them; and any shawl that would sell for 30s. the worsted of it would cost 9s. or 10s.

2315. How much would the workmanship of a 30s. shawl come to?-Perhaps 12s., and sometimes more. Sometimes we give as high as 15s. for it. We paid 17s. 6d. last week for making a fine shawl. Then he says, A good deal of the worsted is now made in England, and brought down to Shetland.

2316. Is there much worsted imported from England?-Yes. Mr. Walker says further, 'The demand is so great for the Shetland goods, that it (the worsted) is made in Yorkshire, and brought down at 8s. a pound; and a quarter of a pound of that worsted will make a large shawl.' That is a mistake, because nothing less than half a pound of worsted of that quality could by any possibility make a shawl.

2317. Is 8s. per pound a correct statement of the price?-For some qualities it is. There is a great variety of qualities. The qualities of Pyrenees and mohair and alpaca wools go by numbers, and according to fineness the numbers rise.

2318. Can you mention the various prices at present?-7s. and 8s. per pound for blacks and whites; 9s. and 10s. for scarlet and ingrained colours.

2319. That is for Yorkshire wool?-Yes, of the finer descriptions; and then mohair and alpaca will range from 20s. to 24s. and 30s.

2320. I thought you said 32s. before?-Yes; and I have no doubt some of the numbers are even higher.

2321. I suppose there is not much variety in the size of shawls used for opera-cloaks or dress purposes?-No, they are all made about a size; but the value does not depend so much upon the size as upon the style of the workmanship.

2322. It will also depend to some extent on the quality of the wool?-Yes, to some extent.

2323. But principally on the workmanship?-Yes, it depends in great measure on that; and that is the reason why there are constant disputes with the knitters. Two knitters may come in with two shawls made of the same material and the same size and yet the one will be 25 per cent. better than the other, on account of the work bestowed upon it, and the niceness of the pattern; but it is very difficult to get these girls to understand that they should be paid according to that.

2324. Can you show me any instance of a shawl made of Yorkshire wool for which you paid 20s.? That would be rather a fine quality, would it not?-Yes; that would be mohair or alpaca.

2325. But not the finest quality?-No, not the finest.

2326. We may take that as an average quality. You said it would take about half a pound of material to make the shawl; but you also said that the finer the wools are, the less thread it takes to make them. How much would it take to make a shawl of that kind?-Perhaps it would take 6 oz.

2327. That would be about 7s. 6d. for the material?-Yes; but a great deal depends on the way in which [Page 48] it is knitted. It is almost impossible to say, except with a very special article, what the knitter would get for it, because this is not like a uniform trade at all.

2328. Then you fix the price to the knitter according to the judgment of your eye?-Yes, after the work is brought back. Properly speaking, every shawl requires to be priced individually.

2329. Between what sums would you say that the price of the workmanship of a shawl made of that sort of stuff would vary?- That depends entirely on the workmanship itself. Some of the best knitters we have in town put very high prices on their work.

2330. I am assuming that it varies; but there must be a limit to it. Can you not give what would be about the average?-I will give an instance. About a fortnight ago I bought a shawl from a girl for 35s., made of common Yorkshire wool. It was her own material, and she just came in with it, and sold it over the counter. The material of that shawl, for which I gave her 35s., had not cost her 4s. It was a half-square shawl. It is still lying in the shop, and I can produce it if it is desired. The whole value of that article depended on the workmanship contained in it.

2331. Is it a black or white shawl?-White. It is not even fine Shetland worsted, which is the most valuable sort of thing.

2332. Is fine Shetland worsted more valuable than the other worsted at 32s?-Yes, we can always get a better price; and indeed the article is much more valuable when made of fine white Shetland wool than of fine white English wool, because there is a hardness and coarseness in the English wool that is not in the Shetland.

2333. But you don't pay so much as 32s. per pound for Shetland wool in any case?-No, I doubt think we pay so much as that for it, but the Shetland wool is more rare. The supply of it is limited. You can get any quantity of mohair or alpaca, but you cannot get any quantity of fine Shetland wool.

2334. Do you purchase that quality of fine Shetland wool to any extent?-I buy some of it. I have paid as high as 6d. a cut of nominally 100 threads for it; but that was a rare article. 4d. per cut is the usual thing.

2335. How much is that per pound?-We don't reckon the Shetland worsted by the pound.

2336. But as you do so little business in giving out work, I suppose you don't purchase great quantities of the Shetland wool for your own use?-No.

2337. Is there any other part of the evidence you wish to refer to?-There is another question, 44,301, where Mr. Walker is asked, 'Is it all done through the middle-man?'-referring to the buying of woollen goods: he says, 'Through the merchants. Then, in considering the hosiery matter, when you leave the town, you come to the middle-men, merchants, or merchant factors, or merchant proprietors; in which case the knitters are their tenants. All worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously or on the sly.' I wish to remark with regard to that, that I never heard of such a thing until I saw it here.

2338. Are there hosiery merchants and worsted merchants in the country?-Yes, here and there.

2339. Do they possess any hold over the knitters?-I suppose in some cases they will be factors for the proprietors, and these knitters will be living in family with the tenants who have the holdings.

2340. Do you know any instance of such hosiery merchants being proprietors in the country?-I don't know about them being proprietors.

2341. Or factors for proprietors?-I suppose Spence & Co., in Unst, are in that position.

2342. Are they hosiery merchants?-They deal extensively in hosiery; and I understand they are factors or lessees or the greater part of the island.

2343. But the other fish-curers generally are not hosiery merchants?-I think not, as a rule.

2344. Then you deny that, as a general rule, knitters are bound in any way to sell to dealers in the country?-I never heard of such a thing before especially this statement, that all worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously. That may be true, but I never heard it till I read it in this evidence; and I don't believe it is true.

2345. Do you often send orders to the country?-Yes; we send orders to the merchants in the country for hosiery just the same as we order goods from the south, and the merchants in the country make them up.

2346. Do they have their profit on the hosiery in the first instance?-I suppose so. We pay them in cash.

2347. And you have a commission or a profit in your turn?-Yes, we must have that otherwise it would be no object for us to buy the articles.

2348. Is there any other point in the previous evidence which you wish to mention?-I don't think there is anything else.

2349. Is there any other correction you wish make upon that evidence, or upon the evidence which has been taken here, so far as you have heard it?-No. I heard the evidence of several of these knitting women, and I have no reason to doubt its general correctness.

2350. Is it the case that the knitters are more commonly in debt to the merchant than the other way,-that they are generally rather behind in their accounts with him?-In my own case, I don't think that is so, at least not to any extent.

2351. In a bad season do they not fall behind, and require credit to some extent from the merchant?-I don't think that obtains very much with the knitters. It would obtain more with the fishermen and heads of houses.

2352. But if a woman is depending entirely on knitting for her livelihood, and the prices of provisions are high, while at the same time the prices for knitted goods may happen to be low, is it usual for a merchant to make advances to her in goods or, in cash?- There being no system of cash payments, I would not say that I would make advances of cash to her.

2353. But would the merchant, in such a case, make advances to her in goods?-He probably would. We know most of these knitting girls, and we would not see them at a loss for anything they actually required. I believe most of the dealers would be ready to help them in that way.

2354. Does that come to be any inducement to the knitting women to sell their goods to particular merchants afterwards, or to submit to take their payments in goods when, in other circumstances, they would prefer to have them in cash?-I think, in many cases, if they were in debt to me, they would not scruple very much at walking off and dealing with some other body afterwards, and leaving my debt to take its chance; for they know there would be no legal proceedings taken-no summoning, or anything of that kind. I never heard of any case in Lerwick where a knitter was summoned for any balance which she was due.

2355. Perhaps the balances generally are so small, that it is not worth the merchants' while to summon the women for them?-I daresay that is the case. I have been told that one of the witnesses yesterday, Mrs. Arcus, referred to the state of the trade in my late fathers time and said it was better then, because the women who made these goods were in the habit of getting meal and groceries from my father for them.

2356. Was that actually the case?-It was. For a great many years my father kept meal, barley, rice, sugar, soap, tea, and all sorts of provisions; but the consequence was, that when newer dealers came into the trade, and went more extensively into the drapery goods, then the knitters and people selling for drapery came more upon my father for groceries, on which there was a much smaller profit; and of course that put us to a great disadvantage. The consequence was, that we gradually gave up the grocery part of the trade. I believe that is the explanation of the statement, which I daresay was quite correct.

2357. Of course there are some women who live entirely by knitting? Can you explain how they supply themselves with food if they are paid entirely or almost entirely with goods? Have you turned your [Page 49] attention to that point at all?-No, I must say I was rather astonished to hear some of the evidence which has been given here, although, I have no doubt it was quite correct. It had not occurred to me that some of these women were under such conditions as it appears they are.

2358. However, you have not turned your attention to that point?-No, but I have no doubt that what they said was quite correct; and perhaps there is a grievance there which ought to be remedied. I show you an entry in my invoice-book of a dozen gentleman's drawers sold for 48s., which is exactly the price paid for them in goods. My customer does not pay for eighteen months, so that I lose the interest for that time; and there is also 5 per cent. off at the end of the eighteen months. The two next items are in precisely the same position. They are charged at the nominal prices which we have paid for them in goods.

2359. The long credit which you give, in that case, arises from the state of the market in London?-Yes; these London houses are generally long in paying.

2360. But cannot you get your customers here, from whom you buy the goods, to take less for them?-No, we don't require to do that. I believe that when a woman makes a pair of drawers, or anything else that kind, she cannot be paid for them with less than 4s.

2361. Is that an article in which you deal extensively?-Yes; we buy a good many of them, but it is an article on which we have no profit.

2362. A statement has been made in this inquiry, that the success of a merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate such an amount of bad debts about him as thirls the whole families in a neighbourhood to him, and then he gets on: do you concur in that statement?-I think that statement must have been intended as a burlesque. I cannot understand how any man could thrive by accumulating a large amount of bad debts. I read the statement at the time, but I could not understand it.

2363. It can only mean this: that the man has a number of debts which his debtors have difficulty in paying, but that they are in the course of earning money year after year and that they are compelled to spend entire earnings in is shop: do you think that is the case?-I can only say that in my own business I make a point of making as few debts as possible, and never any bad ones. To make bad debts I should consider a misfortune rather than a piece of good luck.

2364. But they may not be bad debts, although payment of them may be delayed for a long time. It is perhaps a misnomer, to call them bad debts?-Yes I should say so.

2365. I understand you were engaged at one time in the whaling agency business?-Yes, for some years. My brother-in-law and partner managed that part of the business; and he purposes to come forward and give some evidence, and produce books which he kept at that time. We went out of that trade last spring.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, examined.

2366. You are the principal partner of the firm of Robert Sinclair & Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am the sole partner of that firm.

2367. Your stock, I understand, consists of drapery goods and tea?-Drapery, millinery, boots and shoes, tea, and various other articles. I also keep various kinds of groceries-not many; but there are tea, soap, soda, and blue.

2368. You do not keep provisions?-Not provisions.

2369. Do you keep sugar?-No; I do not sell sugar now.

2370. Besides that trade, you are employed in the purchase and sale of hosiery?-I am.

2371. Your hosiery is obtained in two ways: either women that knit upon your employment or from parties who come with their own goods and sell them to you?-They are principally the latter.

2372. How many women can you state, have been employed on an average during the last three years in knitting for you with worsted supplied by you?-I never was at the pains to reckon exactly the number of knitters I had. I should suppose there would be on an average from 80 to 100-sometimes more and sometimes fewer; but that is only a guess. I have books here which will show it exactly.