546. And your alarm has been excited by what you have heard from the people at Dunrossness?-Yes.

547. Do you know what Mr. Bruce's system is with the tenants under him there?-I cannot say exactly, except that they are not well satisfied with it. At least I know that some of them are not satisfied.

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[Page 11] Lerwick: Tuesday, January 2, 1872.

LAURENCE MAIL, examined.

548. You are a fisherman at Scatness, in Dunrossness?-I am.

549. Are you a tenant of land?-Yes.

550. Under whom?-Under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.

551. How much rent do you pay?-For the present year I pay between 10 and 11 of rent.

552. Have you more land this year than usual?-Yes; I have more than I used to have.

553. Do you fish in the home fishing?-Yes.

554. Do you fish in the Faroe fishing?-No; I don't go to it.

555. How long have you been at Dunrossness?-Ever since I was a child.

556. Have you always been in the same house?-Yes; except for about two and a half years.

557. What is your age?-I am thirty-eight years old.

558. You have come here today to make some statement about the system of fishing?-Yes.

559. What is the complaint you wish to make?-There is one thing we complain of: that we are bound to deliver our fish, wet or green, to the landlord.

560. That is, you have to deliver the fish as they are caught?-Yes; of course we have to take out the bowels and cut off the heads: it is the bodies of the fish we give. We think it would be much better if we had liberty to dry the fish ourselves, as we used to do formerly.

561. To whom are you bound to give your fish?-To Mr. Bruce, our landlord.

562. Is he a fish-curer or fish-merchant?-Yes.

563. Is it Mr. Bruce or his son that you are speaking of?-It is young Mr. Bruce. He is the landlord or tack-master. His father is alive; but I think young Mr. Bruce has got power from his father to manage the tenants according to his own pleasure.

564. Do you pay your rent to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

565. And does he give you a receipt for it in his own name?-We settle once a year with him for our fishing, and for the store goods we have got, and rent and everything together.

566. Do you get an account for the whole?-He generally gives us a copy of our account. Sometimes, perhaps, he does not do so; but he will give it if we ask for it.

567. Have you got a copy of your account for any year with you?- I have not got one here, but I will send one.

568. Is that all you have got to say on the subject of your complaint?-No; I have something more. Of course, as we are bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, a man, unless he has money of his own, is shut up to deal at Mr. Bruce's shop. His credit is gone at every other place, and that binds us to take our goods from his store; and generally the goods there are sold at the highest value. Meal, particularly, has for some years been 4s. a boll above what it was in Lerwick; and very often, when we ask the price of goods at the time we get them, they do not know the price which they are to charge us, and we never learn what the price is until we come to settle.

569. Is there any other store in the neighbourhood from which you could purchase at a cheaper rate?-There are some other stores in the parish that we could purchase from.

570. Where is the store situated that you are speaking of?-It is situated not very far from us-perhaps about a mile or more from Scatness.

571. Is that the most populous part of Dunrossness parish?-No; Scatness is at the very land's end, near Sumburgh point.

572. Are there many fishermen there?-There are good many. There is a population down that way of nearly 500, most of whom are fishermen; and out of the whole lot of them there was not a man who would come here and represent their case except myself. Every man among them was frightened he would get his warning if he came forward.

573. How do you know that?-They said so themselves.

574. Was there any meeting on the subject?-Yes; there was a meeting held last Friday night.

575. What were the names of the men who said they were afraid to come?-There was one Sinclair Cheyne: he said that perhaps they might get their warning; and I think Robert Malcolmson also signified something of the same kind. However, I know it was the general feeling among the whole lot of them.

576. Was there any particular ground stated for that apprehension?-I don't know. Of course every one suspected that if the landlord heard that they were coming forward with any case against him, he would warn them out. That was the general suspicion.

577. Has the landlord or his factor ever told you that a man not dealing at the store, or refusing to deliver his fish to him (the landlord), would be turned out of his farm?-The landlord never told me exactly that if I did not fish for him I would be turned out, but I have seen an evidence of that in the case of a neighbour.

578. What was the name of that neighbour?-James Harper. His son dried a few hundredweight of fish for himself and gave them to Mr. Bruce, and on that account his father was warned.

579. Do you say that the father was warned although the son gave the fish to Mr. Bruce?-Yes, he gave then to him dried; and because he did not give them to him wet, his father was warned.

580. When was that?-I think it was seven or eight years ago; and, if I am not mistaken, the father had to pay 30s. so that he might sit still.

581. But he did sit still?-Yes; he is there yet.

582. Do you know anything about the case of a James Brown?- Yes; it was reported, I believe, to Mr. Bruce that Brown had given some fish to some other merchant, and directly his house was put up for let.

583. In what way was it put up for let? Was it advertised?-Yes; it was advertised at the store, as it was a public place.

584. Did you see the notice?-No; I did not see it, but I was informed that some notice was put up. The thing was found out to be false, and Brown got leave to stay where he was.

585. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say, but I think it was somewhere about eight or ten years ago.

586. Have you known of any person being warned off the ground for not dealing at the store?-No; there is no compulsion about that. We have liberty to deal at any place we like; but when our credit is cut off the way I have mentioned, there is no use in having that liberty.

587. You say your credit is cut off because you are compelled to fish for the landlord?-Yes.

588. Therefore that is virtually compulsion to deal at the store: is that what you mean to say?-Yes; of course it comes to that. Suppose we have liberty to deal at any place we like, still if a man does not have money his credit is cut off with any other merchant, so that he must deal at the landlord's store.

589. When you deliver your fish, do you get any money that you want?-Yes. Mr. Bruce always gave me money when I wanted it, if he had money of mine in his hands; indeed he always gave me what money I asked, whether I had any to get or not. I always found him very generous in that way.

590. Therefore, whenever you wanted money for your fish you got it, even although it was a long time before settling day?-Yes; Mr. Bruce will give money at any time throughout the whole season, especially to men that he knows have it to get.

[Page 12]

591. You have no complaint to make about that?-No.

592. The fishing, I understand, begins in April?-Yes.

593. And when does it end?-About September.

594. Suppose you wanted to draw all the money, or about all the money, that was due to you in August or September, is it likely that you would get it?-If I did not have very much to get, perhaps I might get it all, or perhaps more; but if I did have much to get, I don't think he would be inclined to give it all.

595. If you wanted anything, and could not get the money, would you be obliged to take the goods out of his store?-Of course if I could not get money from him, and was requiring the goods, I had no other chance than taking them from the store.

596. If you wanted a supply of provisions or clothing, you would have to get them there?-Yes.

597. Do you get both provisions and clothes at the store?-There is not much clothing there.

598. Where do you get the rest of your clothing?-At any place where we can get it cheapest when we can have a few shillings in hand.

599. Where are the other stores in that district?-There is a man, Mr. Gavin Henderson, who has a store about four or five miles from us; and I believe he generally sells things at as cheap a rate as they can be got in the country.

600. Have you dealt at his store?-Yes; occasionally.

601. Do you find the goods that you get from Henderson to be cheaper than those in Mr. Bruce's store?-Yes; they are cheaper than we can get them at any other place.

602. Give me an instance of that: have you bought meal at both places?-No, I have not bought meal from there.

603. What have you bought at Henderson's store?-I have sometimes bought leather for making boots and shoes.

604. Do you not buy your shoes ready-made?-No.

605. You buy your leather, and get somebody to make them?- Yes.

606. What is the difference in the price of the leather at the two places?-We generally think that we can get it a few shillings cheaper at Henderson's store than we can get it elsewhere.

607. Do you mean that the leather for a pair of boots is a few shillings cheaper at Henderson's store than at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.

608. Is there any other article you can specify on which there is a difference of price?-I don't know shout anything else in particular.

609. Where do you get your bread?-We buy all our meal, and bake it for ourselves.

610. You spoke about the meal being 4s. a boll cheaper at Lerwick than at Mr. Bruce's: do you know that because you have bought it there yourself?-No; but I have asked what the price of the meal was in Lerwick-sometimes when I was there, and sometimes from people that I could rely upon. Of course we did not know what the price of Mr. Bruce's meal was until we came to settle.

611. But you found out at settling time that Mr. Bruce had charged you 4s. more per boll than meal was selling for at the same time in Lerwick?-Yes.

612. Are you quite sure of that?-Yes.

613. Is the quality of meal from the store good?-Generally it is;

614. You have no fault to find with the quality?-I have no complaint against it or against the quality of any of the goods sold there; they are generally good.

615. What is the price of a boll of meal at Mr. Bruce's store just now?-I cannot say. There is not much meal bought at the store about this time. Most of us have small farms of our own from which we get meal.

616. Then it is generally in summer that you buy meal from Mr. Bruce's store?-Yes.

617. What was the price of meal during last summer?-I cannot say, because I had none from them last summer, except the fourth of a boll.

618. What was the price of that?-I won't know the price of it until settling time. I don't think any man dealing there knows the price of his meal until that time.

619. Is the only compulsion upon you to fish for Mr. Bruce, that you are afraid of being turned out of your holdings?-Of course.

620. If you did not fish for him, or if you sold your fish to another, would you have to pay liberty money?-I don't think there is anything of that kind done with us.

621. You have no written leases?-No. We got the offer of a lease last year. But it would have made us worse than we are, because Mr. Bruce would give a lease for fifty years; but he had it in his power every ten years to raise the rent, so that it would have been double at the end of the fifty years.

622. But you had it in your power to refuse that?-Of course; and we did refuse it.

623. But you had it in your power to refuse at the end of the ten years, as well as at first, to pay the increased rent?-No. That was the condition he offered to give us the lease upon. Besides, he was to have it in his power to cause any man who took a lease to make such improvements as he thought proper; and if he did not make the improvements then Mr. Bruce was to make them himself, and charge the men a certain interest.

624. Was the lease which he offered you in writing?-No, it was in print. I will send a copy of it.

625. You say there is no liberty money paid in your district now?-No. My father paid 50s. of liberty money at one time; but the rents have been raised, so that the liberty money is included in the rent now.

626. How long ago was that?-I think it is about ten years since the rent was raised.

627. Have you any other reason than you have stated for supposing that you will be turned out of your ground if you fished for another than Mr. Bruce?-It is a general belief that we would be turned out.

628. But I want to know the ground of that belief. How long is it since Mr. Bruce took up the business?-Eleven years.

629. Was there at that time any intimation made to you or to the other tenants that you were expected to hand your fish over to him?-There was a letter from old Mr. Bruce sent round to all his tenants. One letter served for them all. If I am not mistaken, the officer went round among them with it.

630. Did he show you the letter?-He read the letter; and in it Mr. Bruce stated that he gave his tenants over into the hands of his son. His son became his tack-master.

631. That letter was not delivered to you?-No; I don't think it was.

632. Was there not a copy of it sent to each tenant?-I don't think there was. It is eleven years ago; and I don't remember any of the particulars that were in it.

633. Do you mean to say that that letter was the beginning of the understanding which now exists about fishing?-Certainly it was.

634. What did it say about that matter?-I really cannot say now what was in the letter.

635. Did it intimate that he had handed over the Dunrossness tenants to his son?-Yes; I think that was the purport of the thing.

636. Did it say anything about the fishing?-It was understood that he handed over the fishing. At that time there were different merchants in Lerwick who were receiving fish from the tenants, and they had all to remove their goods from that district.

637. Had they stores?-Yes, they had stores and goods for supplying the fishermen; and they had all to remove except Messrs. Hay & Co.

638. Were these merchants warned out?-I cannot say.

639. I suppose they paid rent to Mr. Bruce for these stores?-Yes; at least for liberty to have the stores there.

[Page 13]

640. Who were these merchants?-Hay & Co. were put out of the store that Mr. Bruce now occupies.

641. But they have a store at Dunrossness yet?-Yes, they have a store there.

642. How far is it from you?-I think about a quarter of an hour's walk.

643. Is it nearer your place than Gavin Henderson's store?-Yes.

644. Is Hay & Company's store on Mr. Bruce's property?-Yes; but they have a lease of it, otherwise I believe they would not have been there.

645. Can you not sell your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-No.

646. From whom do they buy fish in that quarter?-The tenants of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, through the parish, have liberty to sell their fish where they please, and some of them are sold to Hay & Co.

647. Have you ever been prevented from selling your fish to Messrs. Hay?-I never tried to sell my fish to any other person than Mr. Bruce since he took the fishing.

648. Do you know if any man has tried to do that?-Yes; there are various men who have sold a few to other merchants. On one occasion young Mr. Bruce asked me whether I had sold any fish to any other person than him.

649. When was that?-It would be about half a dozen years ago. I told him I had sold a little, and I did not think I was doing any sin before God or man for doing it.

650. You were not turned out for that?-No.

651. Have you any grievance in Dunrossness with regard to whales?-Yes, we often drive whales on shore there; and after they are killed and pulled ashore, and the oil all taken out, the landlord takes one-third.

652. But you are allowed to sell the other two-thirds?-Yes.

653. To whom do you sell the two-thirds of the oil?-Generally to merchants in Lerwick.

654. How are you paid for that?-Not very well at the present time.

655. Are you paid in money?-Yes; in cash. Of course it comes through the proprietor's hands.

656. Does it enter into your annual accounting with the proprietor?-Yes.

657. The proprietor gets the whole money for the oil, retains his third, and hands you over or puts to your credit the remaining two-thirds?-Yes. Of course if a man requires the money to clear his way with the proprietor, it answers that end. If not, then the proprietors pass over the money to him.

658. Do you really think that if the proprietor had no store there, and you could buy your dry goods and provisions from anybody you like, you would be better off with respect to what you buy?- No; we could not do without the proprietor's store, because, if we have to give our earnings to the proprietor, we are obliged to take goods from his store in return.

659. But supposing you had liberty to sell your fish where you pleased, and to buy your goods where you pleased, do you think you would be any better off than you are?-Yes. There is a man named Laurence Leslie who went to the fishing in the same boat with me last summer. He lives in Lerwick, and was a free man, and he dried his fish for himself, and after he had paid for salt and curing he had about 5 more than any of us.

660. Do you mean that he had about 5 more from the home fishing than you had?-Yes.

661. Can you tell now the proceeds of your last summer's fishing?- We will be paid the price that has been paid already in the country.

662. But you don't know yet what you are to get?-No; Mr. Bruce said at the commencement that he would give us the currency of the country. Now Mr. Bruce is one of the greatest fish-dealers in the country, and of course he has it so far in his power to make the currency; but it is likely we will get the same as the other merchants are paying.

663. Then, in speaking of the sum which Leslie has earned more than you, you are calculating in this way: you know the price which other merchants have paid, and you know the quantity you have delivered?-Yes; and we know in that way what the amount will be.

664. What do you think the amount of your take will be?-About 18.

665. You think your fishing for the whole of last season will be 18, at the prices which are going in Lerwick?-Yes.

666. And you know how much Laurence Leslie has got?-Yes.

667. Had he about the same quantity of fish as you-Yes; he had the same quantity divided green.

668. What quantity had you?-I cannot exactly say. We had so much ling, so much cod, and so much saith.

669. You say he was in the same boat with you: were not all the boat's crew obliged to fish to Mr. Bruce?-All but that one man.

670. You separated your fish: did you just give Leslie his proportion of the whole fish in the boat?-Yes. We kept an account of his fish and of ours, and we gave him his share; and then he dried his part for himself.

671. How many men were in the boat?-Six.

672. Then, when you came to shore, you delivered five-sixths of the fish to Mr. Bruce, and Leslie got one sixth?-Yes; that was the way it generally went. Sometimes we would give all the fish to Mr. Bruce, and sometimes all to Laurence Leslie, and we kept an account; so that we could put the thing all right in the end.

673. Did you do that among yourselves?-Yes.

674. How did Leslie happen to go in that boat among Mr. Bruce's men?-Because he belonged to the place originally, and he agreed with us to go. He only left the place last year.

675. Has he not had a farm there for the last year?-No.

676. And therefore he did not consider himself bound to deliver his fish to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

677. Who did he sell his fish to?-To Hay.

678. Were they cured when he sold them?-Yes. Mr. Bruce would not allow him to weigh his fish on his scales and weights, because he would not give them to him.

679. Who forbade him?-Mr. Bruce's factor.

680. Was that Mr. Irvine?-It was not Mr. Irvine; it was the man who was there in his place. I recollect that one day we were a good deal put about in consequence of that. It was a very coarse day at the fishing, and Hay & Co. did not have weights at the place, and Mr. Bruce's man would not allow us to weigh the fish on his weights.

681. But you were obliged to weigh them in order to find out how much was Mr. Bruce's share?-We were obliged to weigh the fish in order to know how they were to be divided among ourselves, and they had to lie for a whole day until weights were got.

682. Do you know how much money Leslie got for his fishing?-I think the whole amount was pretty nearly 26; but then he had expenses for salt and cure to be taken from that-perhaps 30s.

683. He would also have his own time and trouble to allow for?- He had a lad for curing the fish; that is included in the 30s. Of course Leslie would have some more trouble with it than we had.

684. That makes a difference of 6, 10s. between you, whereas you said the difference was about 5?-There may be some difference of that kind; I am not exactly sure to a few shillings.

685. Was there no objection made to Laurence Leslie going in the boat with you?-They did not know that he was, not to fish for Mr. Bruce until we commenced the fishing, and then they could not object; but Mr. Bruce's rule is, that he won't take part of a boat. The whole boat must be for him; and in that way there have been men who have been forced to part company who were nearly as bad to part as man and wife.

686. After the boat's crew was made up, was any objection taken to Leslie fishing with you?-They could not object then, because we had begun to the fishing, [Page 14] and they could not get another man to take his place, even although they had objected.

687. Do you keep a pass-book, at Mr. Bruce's store for the supplies you get for your house?-No; it would be of no use for me to do so.

688. Why?-Because I do not know the prices of the goods, and they won't mark them down themselves.

689. But they would mark the quantities of the articles you got, would they not?-No; they would not be bothered with that.

690. Have you ever asked for a pass-book?-Yes; I had a pass-book, and I had to drop it, because Irvine said he would not be bothered with it.

691. Does Mr. Irvine keep the store himself?-Yes.

692. Does he collect the rents on the property?-No; Mr. Bruce carries through the annual accounting himself.

693. When you go to settle with him, the books of the store are all made up by Mr. Irvine; and does Mr. Bruce state the balance to you?-Yes.

694. Does he show you how it is made up?-Mr. Irvine tells us the amount we have had from the store, and hands that in to Mr. Bruce. Mr. Bruce enters that against us along with the rent, and tells us the balance.

695. What means have you for checking that statement of his? How do you know whether it is correct or not?-We don't have the chance of knowing whether is correct or not.

696. Do you not know how much goods you have got?-Perhaps we might; but we cannot know the price of the goods.

697. But you might know how much goods you have got, and how much fish you have delivered, and how much you have to pay?- But we don't know the price of the goods.

698. Do you not know the price of the goods at the end?-We hear it read over as fast perhaps as it can be read.

699. Do you not get a copy of it?-Not of the shop account.

700. Have you ever asked for one?-No.

701. I thought you told me that you had a copy for some years?- Yes; from Mr. Bruce, but not from Mr. Irvine, for the store. I have had a copy of my account from Mr. Bruce for the whole thing, and it contained a sum for the goods got from the store; but it was all one sum.

702. It is a slump sum, and does not show the different articles?- Yes; that is the account which I promised to send.

703. You say you have asked for a pass-book, and have been refused it?-Yes; I had one, and Mr. Irvine threw it back again, and said he would not be bothered with it.

704. When was that?-I think about two years ago.

705. You brought a pass-book and handed it to Mr. Irvine, and asked him to put your account into it as the articles were furnished, and he refused to do so?-Yes; I wished to have a knowledge of how I was going on.

706. When does the annual settlement take place?-Generally in February or March.

707. Where do you meet for the purpose of settling?-At Sumburgh, at Mr. Bruce's office.

708. Has he an office in his own house?-Yes.

709. Are all the people summoned to meet there on a particular day?-There are certain men called for a particular day, according as he can get through them,-so many men for each day.

710. How long does it take you to settle with him?-Perhaps three or four hours. It is possible I might be three or four hours with him myself. Generally three men go in a boat, and the three men would probably take six hours, or perhaps only four hours.

711. You said there were six men in your boat last year?-Yes, there were six in our boat, but three is the usual number in the smaller boats.

712. And they will perhaps all go together to Mr. Bruce?-Yes, the men in every boat go together; and Mr. Bruce gives us every chance of being satisfied with our accounts that he possibly can.

713. Except giving you a note of them?-He will give us a note.

714. A short note; but he won't give you the full account?-We don't get the full account from the shop, but that, of course is not in Mr. Bruce's hand.

715. He only gets the sum-total due at the shop?-Yes; and he has the rest in his own books. The rest of the balance is in his own hand, and of course he gives us every satisfaction about it.

716. But the shop is his too?-Yes.

717. Did you ever ask him to let a pass-book be allowed you, or an account to be given you at the shop?-No; I never asked him for that.

718. Did you ever complain to him that you did not get it?-No.

719. Did you ever complain about any of the sums brought out in the shop account as not being due by you?-No, I could not do that, because I could scarcely tell whether it was right or wrong.

720. In fact you trusted to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-I was obliged to do that.

721. Then you say that you never see any statement of your account for goods supplied to you at the shop at all?-None, except the total. The total is handed in to Mr. Bruce at settling time.

722. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is one thing I would like to ask. In consequence of my coming here, I expect nothing but that I will be turned off; and I would ask how I am to proceed.

723. I don't think you need be afraid of that; but if there is anything done to you in consequence of the evidence which you have given here, you had better write and let me know. Of course I am only to be here for a short time; but it would be my duty to communicate the fact to some of my superiors. There is one other thing I would like to mention: that any amount of liberty would be of very little account in Shetland, so long as the proprietors have power to turn off men at any time when they have a mind to do so.

724. At the end of the summer fishing is there generally a balance in your favour at the accounting between you and the landlord?- Sometimes there is, and sometimes not. I believe I generally stand about half and half.

725. Do you mean that if your fishing is worth 18, your account at the store and your rent will be about 9 or 10?-No; there are some years in which my account at the store, and my rent, are above the whole amount of my year's earnings,-while there are other years when my earnings are above my shop account and rent.

726. When the year's earnings are less than your account, is the balance written down against you for the next year?-Yes.

727. Then that is an additional reason why you are bound to fish to your landlord, because when you are in his debt you cannot very well sell your fish to another?-If we had our liberty, we could sell our fish to another merchant.

728. But suppose you had liberty, would not the fact of your being in debt to your landlord still be a sort of obligation upon you to fish for him?-It would still bind us, of course.

729. Does that cause operate, in fact, to tie the fishermen to the same merchant?-When the men have had their liberty, that has been the case.

730. Was it the case before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands?-Yes.

731. So that many men in those times would be unable to sell their fish to another merchant than Messrs. Hay or Mr. Robertson, who had the fishing then?-Yes; of course there were times when the fishing was small, and perhaps men required a lot of meal, and they could not get it without going into debt; and when merchants supported them in that way, the men could not do better than hand over their fish to the merchants to whom they were in debt.

732. So that there was even then a certain obligation on the men to fish to a particular merchant?-[Page 15] Yes. When a man is in debt, he is under an obligation to clear his debt.

733. But your complaint is, that you are much more strictly bound now?-Yes; there was no obligation for a man to clear his debt with any merchant before now.

734. Was there then any obligation to purchase at that merchant's store?-None.

735. Except that perhaps they would not get credit elsewhere?- Exactly.

736. In those times did the men get advances in money during the season when they asked them?-Yes.

737. But you still get that?-Yes, we get that still, of course.

738. If you choose, you can get your provisions elsewhere; and if you choose to get them elsewhere, you will get all your money at the end of the season?-Yes, if we had any over; but if we had no money over, of course the merchant from whom we had to get our goods would have to want.

Lerwick, January 2, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined.

739. You are now a fisherman in Lerwick?-Yes.

740. You formerly lived at Dunrossness?-Yes.

741. And you had a piece of ground from Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.

742. You have been present during the examination of the previous witness, and heard the whole of his examination?-Yes.

743. Do you concur in that part of it which referred to yourself with regard to the quantity of fish you got last season?-I do.

744. What may be the total price you got for your cured fish?-We had three different kinds of fish-saith, cod, and ling. We got 12s. per cwt. for saith, I think 18s. for cod, and 20s. for ling, dried.

745. The quantity which you had to sell was the same when weighed green as that which Laurence Mail delivered to Mr. Bruce?-Of course.

746. You lived in Dunrossness for a number of years?-Yes.

747. Do you concur with the rest of the evidence which Laurence Mail gave?-I do.

748. It was all correct?-Yes.

749. Do you know a man named William Brown at Millpond?- Yes.

750. Was he a fisherman?-Yes.

751. How far did he live from your place?-I think about two miles.

752. Do you know whether at any time lately he and some other old men went fishing on their own account, and were obliged to pay liberty money?-Yes; he stated that he had been applied to for payment of liberty money.

753. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago.

754. Is Brown an old man?-Yes; perhaps between fifty and sixty.

755. Would he be able to come to Lerwick?-He might.

756. Would it not be rather hard for a man of his age to come this length?-I think it would be rather hard; but I think he could come.

757. To whom had he to pay that liberty money?-To Mr. Grierson of Quendale, his landlord.

758. Is Mr. Grierson a fish-merchant too?-Yes.

759. Do you know James Williamson at Berlin, Dunrossness?- Yes.

760. Is he on Mr. Grierson's land?-Yes.

761. Do you know anything about a boy of his who had gone out to service with a neighbouring farmer lately?-I know that he has a boy, but I cannot say anything about him going to service. I don't think Williamson could come here; he is in ill health at present.

Lerwick, January 2, 1872, WALTER WILLIAMSON, examined.

762. You are a fisherman in the island of Burra?-I am.

763. Do you hold a piece of ground there under Messrs. Hay & Co., who are the lessees of Burra under Misses Scott of Scalloway?-I do.

764. You are one of the men who signed the following letter which has been addressed to me:- ' Burra Isle, 1st Jan. 1872. 'SIR, We, the undersigned, desire to give evidence to the following effect, and will be glad to be informed when it will be convenient for you to receive our evidence':- 'We are bound by agreement to fish to our landlord; but no price is agreed upon until the time of settlement, which occurs about once a year. We have then to take what price is offered; and if we or our sons fish to any other person, we have to pay 20s. each yearly of '.' 'We can get no leases of our farms, and have to build and repair our own houses at our own expense, without any compensation when leaving the farm, or when ejected from it. 'As we settle only once a year, of course we have to buy from our landlord's shop till the end of the year, at which time we seldom have any money to get, except when we have better fishings than ordinary. 'If we capture whales, we have to pay one-third of the proceeds to the landlord. 'Those of us who have daughters engaged in knitting can testify to the fact that they are invariably paid in goods, both for the goods they sell, and also for their wages when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers. 'We have to add, that we wish to be free to fish to whom we please, or to cure our own fish, and to receive compensation for improvements effected on our houses or farms when we leave them. 'Other details we will state when called before you. Meantime we remain, sir, your most obedient servants, 'WALTER WILLIAMSON. 'GILBERT GOODLAD. 'LAURENCE POTTINGER. 'PETER SMITH. 'LAURENCE INKSTER. 'CHARLES SINCLAIR 'JOHN NEWTON GOODLAD. 'HANCE SMITH. 'ROBERT SINCLAIR. 'JOHN POTTINGER. 'ALEXANDER SINCLAIR. 'THOMAS CHRISTIE. 'GEORGE JAMIESON. 'To WILLIAM GUTHRIE, Esq., ' H.M. Commissioner, Lerwick.' -I am.

765. You say in that letter, 'We are bound by agreement to fish to our landlord, but no price is agreed upon until the time of settlement, which occurs about once a year. We have then to take what price offered; and if we or our sons fish to any other person, we have to pay 20s. each yearly of 'liberty money.' Is that an obligation which you have entered into with Messrs. Hay & Co.?-It is an obligation that we are under, that we are bound over to them.

766. Have you signed any obligation to that effect?-I was asked to sign an obligation to that effect; but I said I could not sign to bind my sons, and that I would on no account come under that obligation.

767. How long ago was that?-To the best of my recollection, it was about eight years ago.

768. Was there an agreement to that effect handed to you for signature?-Yes.

769. And to a number of other men at the same time?-Yes.

770. By whom was it handed to you?-By Mr. Wm. Irvine, who is a partner of the firm of Hay & Co.

771. Was that in Burra or here?-It was in Messrs. Hay & Co.'s office in Lerwick.

772. Was it handed to the other men at the same time?-It was offered to them at the same time that it [Page 16] was offered to me. A certain number of them were present at the time.

773. How many?-I should think there might have been five present, exclusive of myself.

774. Did they all sign it?-I cannot say that they did, for I went out and left them there.

775. Then you are under no written obligation to fish for your landlord?-No.

776. Is there any other understanding or bargain between you that you shall fish only for him?-Yes, we were told that we must fish for them.

777. When was that said to you?-At the time, when I took a property from them in Burra.

778. How long is that since?-About fourteen years ago.

779. Who told you so then?-The late Mr. William Hay.

780. Have you ever been told so since?-I have.

781. By whom?-By Mr. William Irvine.

782. How long ago is that?-It is just eight years.

783. Was that at the same time when you were asked to sign the agreement?-Yes; it was on the same day.

784. Have you ever been told so since that time?-No; I have never sought to fish for anybody else, nor asked my liberty since then. I asked for my liberty that day when I was asked to sign the agreement.

785. Was it given to you?-No. I offered to pay 20s. if they would give me my liberty, but I could not get it for that.

786. Was any price fixed by them for that?-I offered 20s. for my liberty to fish for whom I liked, or to cure for myself, and I could not get it for the paying of the 20s.

787. Were you told what they would give it to you for?-No; they would not say.

788. Do you wish to fish for anybody else?-I should certainly wish to fish for anybody that I could get most from; but I should like especially to be the master of my own fish, to cure them for myself, and to sell them to the best advantage.

789. You mean you would like to catch and cure your own fish, and then sell them, do you?-Yes; that is what I would like.

790. Why do you, not do it?-Because we would be ejected from the place if we were not to deliver our fish to them.

791. What is your reason for supposing that?-Because we have been told so.

792. Was it on the occasion you have mentioned, eight years ago, that you were told so?-It was.

793. Have you been told since that you would be ejected if you did not deliver your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have never since asked anything about it, so that I had no reason to be told so.

794. Has any person been ejected for selling fish to other merchants than Hay & Co., or for curing his own fish?-I think there have been such cases in Burra. I believe John Leask was ejected for not serving as a fisherman to Messrs. Hay & Co.

795. How long ago was that?-I think it would be about thirteen years since, or close thereby.

796. That is an old story. Has there been anybody ejected since?- I don't remember any one at present.

797. Do you know from your own knowledge of any threats of ejection having been made to parties who were fishing for others?-Yes.

798. Who were so threatened?-We were threatened at that very time, eight years ago, that we should be ejected if we did not sign the agreement.

799. But do you know of any threats to particular parties for particular offences since that time?-There never have been any threats made to me, and I cannot remember exactly about them having been used to others; but there are parties here who may remember better about that than I do.

800. You say further in the letter, 'We can get no leases of our farms, and we have to build and repair our own houses at our own expense, without any compensation when leaving the farm, or when ejected from it.' That does not exactly fall under this inquiry, though it may perhaps indirectly affect it; but I suppose the obligation to build and repair your own houses is part of the bargain you enter into on taking the land?-It is.

801. Are you not at liberty to make your own bargain about the land, the same as any other tenant in Scotland is?-I am not aware of that.

802. Suppose you were to object to make such a bargain, could you not leave the land and get a holding elsewhere?-It is not likely we would get a holding elsewhere.

803. Why?-We would very likely be deprecated as not being legal subjects, and the heritors would all know that we were not convenient parties to give land to. What is one reason; and another reason is, that places are sometimes not very easily got.

804. Do the same conditions exist on other properties in Shetland?-So far as I know, they prevail all over the country, or nearly so.

805. You think that if you were trying to move, you would not get free of a condition of that sort?-We might get free of it for a time, but by next year the parties to whose ground we had removed might bind us down to the same thing.

806. But supposing all the men were united in refusing to agree to such conditions, there could be no compulsion upon them?-They have not the courage, I expect, to make such an agreement among themselves.

807. To come to the more proper subject of the inquiry: you go on to say, 'As we settle only once year, of course we have to buy from our landlord's shop till the end of the year, at which time we have seldom any money to get, except when we have better fishings than ordinary.' Your settlement, I suppose, takes place about the beginning of the year for the whole of the previous year?-Yes; generally a month after the beginning of the year.

808. And at that time you settle with your landlords, Messrs. Hay & Co., for all the provisions you have got from their shop?-Yes.

809. Where is their shop?-They have shops both at Lerwick and Scalloway.

810. Does the same man keep an account at both shops?-The same company keeps a store at Scalloway and a store at Lerwick.

811. But has the same man a book in both shops?-Yes; he has a book in both shops.

812. The men deal at both?-Some men in the islands deal at both, and others, again, have liberty to deal only at one.

813. Then, at the settlement time, you settle for all the provisions you have got from the shops, and for the rent that is due for your farm, and they set against that the price of the fish you have delivered?-Yes.

814. And you say that generally the account against you is as large, or larger, than that in your favour?-Taking it generally amongst the tenants on the island, I believe it is.

815. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the season when you ask for it?-Yes, I have always, or generally, got it when I asked for it.

816. Suppose that at the close of the fishing season-that is, in September-you were to ask for all the money that was due for your fish, or for a sum about equal to the value of your fish, would you get it?-I don't expect I would get it.

817. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes.

818. In September, or about that time?-I asked it on 1st November, thirteen years ago.

819. That is a long time ago?-That was the first year I was resident in Burra; I had been there for a twelvemonth then.

820. What did you ask for, then?-I asked for the value of the fish that belonged to a fee'd man who had been along with me for three months in autumn. I fee'd a young man for these months to go along with me to the summer fishing at that time; he was to get one-third of the fish, and I was to supply him with boat, lines, and lodging. At the end of autumn he went home, and he wanted me to introduce him to Messrs. Hay's agent, so that he might get his money.

[Page 17]

821. Did he want to leave the island?-He did not belong to the island; and as he was going home, he wanted to be paid, and he asked me to introduce to the agent, which I did.

822. Did you apply for his money?-Yes, as being a stranger I wanted them to settle with him; but they would not settle with him at all, I then asked for an advance of 20s. on my own account, and I would give it to him for his trouble; but they would not give that either.

823. At that time had you and he a large contra account against you in the shop?-Neither of us had any account against us at all. He told me that at the time he had not a penny taken out from either of their stores.

824. Was he offered goods at that time?-Yes; in my hearing.

825. What was said about that?-He was told to take anything he wanted out of the store.

826. Where was that?-At Scalloway, I expect, or Lerwick.

827. Can you tell me of anything of the same kind happening within the last two or three years?-I don't recollect anything of the kind happening within that time, so far as I was personally concerned.

828. Have you, within the last two or three years, always had a large account against you at the beginning of the winter?-Not of a bad debt.

829. But have you had a large account against you for goods supplied during the course of the season?-Yes; I have generally had a considerable account so far as our accounts go.

830. Was that the reason for your not asking for a settlement of it at that time?-I cannot say whether that would be the reason or not.

831. Did you know that you had got the value of your fish, or something approaching to it, in provisions?-Some of us in Burra had, no doubt, got the whole value in goods, and had even overdrawn their accounts, but others of us had not.

832. But if you want money in the course of the autumn or in the early part of the winter, do you not get an advance on applying for it at Messrs. Hay's place?-I only know of those getting it who might be worthy of it, who had not overdrawn their accounts.

833. But they will give you money as readily as they will give you goods now?-I suppose they would in Lerwick, but I don't think they would do that at Scalloway.

834. What is your reason for supposing that?-About twelve months ago I went once, twice, and at last three times with some fish to their fish-curing place in Scalloway; and their law there was that we should only get goods for our fish, but no money.

835. Who told you that?-Mr. Gilbert Tulloch, the shopkeeper, the master of the store.

836. Is he the shopkeeper for Messrs. Hay at Scalloway?-Yes.

837. Did you on that occasion ask for money for the fish you delivered?-The last time I went up, after taking a number of small things that I was requiring, there was a shilling due to me on the fish which I had delivered, and I asked for it. Mr. Tulloch said that I knew it was not the custom to give money. I said I knew that too well, but that it could not affect him very much to give me a few pence, as he had got much more from me in the course of the year. He hung on for a little bit and then put his hand on the counter and gave it to me; but he bade me remember it was to be the last.

838. You say the amount of your account is made up in the beginning of the year: how did you know that the cost of the provisions you were getting at the time you have now mentioned came to within 1s. of what was due?-There is a misunderstanding between us there. We have an opportunity of taking goods out of their stores; but when we come to their store at Scalloway with a little fish, we get goods from them there, without them entering into the annual settlement. That is not the proper place where we deliver our fish to Messrs. Hay-the proper place is in the island of Burra itself, but we have a chance of coming to Scalloway occasionally when we have got a few small fish, and we get goods home with us.

839. Then, when you want goods, you take the fish to Scalloway?-Yes, but we can also get goods there, although we deliver the fish at the proper place in Burra.

840. In that case, do you get a line from the manager at Burra stating that you have delivered so much fish?-No.

841. Then how do they know to allow you goods?-When we take the fish up to the store at Scalloway, we only get goods for their exact value. In the case I have mentioned I got goods up to the value of my fish within a shilling.

842. Did you not say you could also get goods at Scalloway although you delivered the fish at Burra?-Yes; that is on account of the fish which we give to the local factor.

843. And the goods you get in that case go to the general account for the whole year?-Yes.

844. Then those which you deliver at Scalloway are not put into the general account at all?-No.

845. That is to say, you are at liberty to deliver your fish elsewhere than to the factor at Burra?-Yes.

846. But the only place where you are at liberty to deliver them, if you do not deliver them to the factor in Burra, is to the store at Scalloway?-Yes.

847. And you take them there if you want a supply of goods?- Yes.

848. Is there any reason for preferring that way of dealing?-We have none.

849. But have you any reason for preferring to take the fish to Scalloway and getting the goods, rather than delivering them to the factor at Burra and having the goods entered in your general account?-We have then got the pleasure of seeing our fish paid for all at once. That is all the advantage we have about it, so far as I know.

850. Have you a chance of getting more money in hand if you take the fish to Scalloway?-Not one farthing more. I have got none this year.

851. But on the other system you may still get an advance of money if you ask for it?-Yes; I believe I might get some money if I wanted it.

852. Would you get it from the factor at Burra, or at Scalloway or Lerwick?-So far as I am aware, I would only get it at Lerwick.

853. Do you purchase in that way, from Messrs. Hay, all your provisions and clothing, and everything you want for the support of your families?-As a general thing over the islands, it is only from them we can get them. It is only from them we need ask them, because we have no power to sell the labour of our hands to any one else.

854. And you have no credit with any one else?-Some of us would have credit; but the system prevents us from getting credit, because we could not pay the parties from whom we got the goods.

855. But if these parties knew that you were getting money from Messrs. Hay for your fish, would it not be possible for you to get the money from Messrs. Hay, and with it to pay the other dealers?-That may be done no doubt on a very small scale, for anything I know. I believe it is done, to a certain extent, by persons who get a few pence or a few pounds from Messrs. Hay; but it is only a few of the men who are able to deal in that way.

856. You say in your letter that you don't know the prices you are to get for your fish until the end of the year: is that so?-Yes, it is so.

857. Messrs. Hay & Co. do not fix the price until what time of the year?-They do not fix it until we settle-about a month after the New Year.

858. So that you don't know before then what you are to get?-We never do.

859. Have you ever been to agree to fish at a certain price per cwt.?-I never was asked to agree to that during the whole fourteen years I have served them.

860. Would you like to have a certain price per cwt. [Page 18] fixed before the commencement of the season?-We should like that well enough if we had power ourselves to inquire after it, but we should not like it if it was to be left in the hands of another who had power to make the price what he pleased.

861. You also say, in your letter, 'If we capture whales, we have to pay one-third of the proceeds to the landlord.' Is that a frequent source of profit to you in Shetland?-It is not, a very frequent source. It is occasional, but not frequent.

862. What is your objection to that system?-We think that as we the fishermen, drive the whales ashore, and they are all flinched and wrought below high-water mark, we have a right to the whole proceeds. We think the proprietor has no right to anything at all, any more than he has to the fish that come ashore in our boats.

863. But when you get the whales you get two-thirds of the oil?- We do.

864. And you can sell that in any market you like-I believe we can.

865. Do you get cash for it?-Yes.

866. So that there is no truck there?-No; none.

867. Do you dispose of the oil yourselves, or is it done for you by the landlord?-I always knew of it being sold by public auction on the beach where it was landed.

868. Is it sold in lots consisting of the amount of oil which each man gets?-I always knew of it being sold in company; but it is set up in lots, perhaps of a tun, or five tuns, or half a tun, and so on, and it is carried away by the purchaser.

869. Then the landlord does not sell it you?-No.

870. How is his third set apart?-It is taken off the whole money when it has been paid by the purchasers. Any party or parties who buy the oil at auction, pay the money to the landlord, and he gets a third, and pays the other two-thirds to the fishermen.

871. Is it paid to you at the time, or is it put into your general account?-So far as I know, it is always paid at the time.

872. But that is not a common occurrence?-No. Perhaps it may not occur in the same place for ten or twelve or twenty years, or sometimes longer than that.

873. Does not the value of the oil go into the general accounts of the men at the end of the year?-I have had a share in whales on two occasions, and I believe that some of the fishermen who are in debt to the landlord will allow their shares to go into the general account. Those who are not in debt will get the money clear out.

874. You are not obliged to take that in goods?-I never knew of that being done.

875. In speaking of the fishing, for which you settle with Messrs. Hay in the beginning of the year, all your evidence has had regard to what is called the home or summer fishing?-Yes.

876. It has not had reference to the Faroe fishing-Not so much, so far as I know.

877. It is only with regard to the home fishing that you are bound to fish for them?-It is only with regard to it that I can speak, for I am not a Faroe fisherman.

878. Are the men in Burra free to ship for the Faroe fishing with any master they like?-I expect they are; but there are some of the men to be examined afterwards, who will be better witnesses on that subject than I can be.

879. The fish you take in the summer fishing are ling, cod, and haddocks?-Yes. There are plenty in the islands who fish herrings also.

880. But that is a distinct thing altogether from the summer fishing?-Yes.

881. The fishing you have been speaking to during all your examination has been the fishing for ling and cod?-I have been speaking of the whole home fishing of every kind, the herring fishing as well.

882. What do you catch in what you call the home fishing?-Ling, cod, and herrings.

883. And haddocks?-Yes; there are plenty of the men who catch haddocks also.

884. You spoke of taking some fish to Scalloway: were not these merely the small fish or haddocks?-Yes; the haddocks chiefly, and small cod.

885. Is that done at a particular season of the year?-Yes. 886. That is, when Messrs. Hay have not men at Burra to receive the large fish; or have they men there all the year round?-They have them all the year round.

887. Then why is it generally the smaller fish that you take at Scalloway?-I cannot give a particular statement why it is, except that the men get their account cleared off at Scalloway with these small fish. It is only haddocks that are taken there. The haddocks have never been taken in at their fish-curing station at Burra, so far as I know.

888. At what season of the year are these haddocks generally caught?-In winter.

889. Do they smoke the haddocks in Burra?-No; they never did that.

890. Their establishment there is only for curing the larger fish?- Yes.

891. Then, in order to get your haddocks smoked and cured, you must bring them to Scalloway, and deliver them at the store there?-Yes.

892. And that is the reason why you bring some of your fish to Scalloway?-It is.

893. Supposing you bring these fish there, is it still in your option to let them enter your general account, instead of getting goods for them at the time?-We can either take the value of them at the time in goods, or we can have them entered in our general account.

894. Have you ever asked, when bringing fish to Scalloway, to get the price of them in money?-Yes.

895. Have you asked for the whole price in money?-I don't remember that I ever asked to get the whole of it in that way.

896. Why?-Because, of course, I knew I would not get it.

897. How did you know that?-I knew it, because last year I asked only for a shilling on one occasion, and I was told by the shopkeeper that it was to be the last.

898. Then you go on to say in your letter, 'Those of us who have daughters engaged in knitting can testify to the fact that they are invariably paid in goods both for the goods they sell and also for their wages when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers.' Have you sold goods for your daughters, or do they generally take them to the market themselves?-I have no daughters, and I cannot give evidence about the knitting.

899. You further say, 'We have to add, that we wish to be free to fish to whom we please or to cure our own fish, and to receive compensation for improvements effected on our houses or farms when we leave them. Other details we will state when called before you. That is the same complaint which you made at the commencement of your letter?-Yes.

900. Are there any other details on the subject which occur to you at this moment, and which you desire to add?-There is one thing which I desire to ask on behalf of myself and of the parties who shall be examined after me. I have been desired to ask you whether they shall be at liberty to speak here? If her Majesty's Government will give an obligation to protect them, they will speak then, and if not, they won't.

901. What is the obligation to protect them that you want?-An obligation that they shall not be ejected or fined.

902. I don't think there is any probability of that. You know you are all protected by the law, and I can give you no further protection than the law affords. The Government have it under contemplation at present to alter the law, and this inquiry is for the purpose of ascertaining whether the law ought to be altered in any respect.-If we had not been under the belief that it would surely be altered, we would not have come here.

903. Do you remember, three or four years ago, of the men in Burra getting up a memorial stating their [Page 19] grievances, and what they wanted, and having it forwarded to the agent for the proprietor of the island?-I do.

904. Were you concerned in that matter?-I was.

905. Was there any inquiry made at that time?-There was a petition sent up at that time to the trustee in Edinburgh for Misses Scott of Scalloway, by their tenants in Burra, asking for their liberty.

906. Was there any particular reason at that time for the petition being got up?-There was plenty of reason.

907. Was there any more reason for it then than at any other time? Was there any threatened expulsion, or any strict enforcement of the obligation to fish?-If my memory serves me right it was immediately after we had been asked to sign an obligation in Messrs. Hay's office to pay for our sons' labour.

908. But you said that was eight years ago?-Yes; about that time.

909. Was the memorial not sent up within the last three or four years?-No; it was longer than that, to the best of my recollection. Our petition was got up very shortly after we were wanted to sign the obligation.

910. Did you complain much at that time about the herring fishery?-I believe some of the men did but am not a herring fisher.

911. What is the usual amount of rent that you pay in Burra?-It will run from 6 to 2, 10s., or perhaps as high as 7.

912. That rent is paid for a small piece of ground?-Yes.

913. Is there a right to the pasture in the scattald besides?-Yes.

914. Your scattalds in Burra are not extensive or of much value?- No; they are of very little value.

915. Do you know of any other agreement having been signed by the Burra men, or asked from them, except that one eight years ago?-I have heard of another, but it was before I came to the island.

916. Was there any particular reason for getting the agreement signed eight years ago? Was there general renewal of your holdings; or what reason was assigned for it?-I know of no reason for it, except merely that we were to fish for nobody except Messrs. Hay & Co.

917. But was there any reason for it being signed that particular time?-I believe it was about that time, or immediately after, that Mr. Irvine came to be a partner of Messrs. Hay & Co.

918. There was a change in the firm about that time?-Yes.

919. Are there any leases given in Burra?-I never knew of any being given.

920. Do you know that most of the young men in Burra go to the Faroe fishing?-They do.

921. Do you know that they have shipped both with Messrs. Hay and with other merchants?-Yes.

922. Do they get the same terms both from Messrs. Hay and from other merchants?-I believe they do, so far as I know.

923. Do you know from your own knowledge, whether there is any objection made by Messrs. Hay to their shipping with other merchants for the Faroe fishing?-I have not heard of any recently, but it used to be objected to a few years back. There have been good fishings at Faroe for some time back, and all the agents can get plenty of men; so that there is no need for any restrictions.

924. Supposing you were at liberty to deliver your fish to any other merchant than Messrs. Hay, what reason have you for supposing that you would be better paid than you now are?-I have been a fisherman in Burra for fourteen years, and I was a fisherman in Havera for twenty years before that. There I cured my own fish, and I could do with them what I liked; and I learned there how much I could make by curing them for myself, or selling them to any one within reach who would buy them green.

925. It costs you something, both money and trouble in curing them?-Yes.

926. But, notwithstanding that, you would make more money by being allowed cure them for yourself?-We believe that, and we know it. We know that we would make more money than we have ever got.

927. To whom would you have an opportunity of selling your fish cured?-We could them to any one who would give us the most for them.

928. Are there people there who would buy them from you?-Yes, there are plenty of merchants in Shetland or in the south country who would come and buy them; and we would have a chance of sending them south at our own risk, or to our own advantage.

929. Has any one in Burra ever cured his own fish?-No; I believe no one has ever done so since Burra rose out of the water.

930. Has any one near Burra done so?-Havera is near Burra, and belongs to the same parish, and I cured my own fish there.

931. Why did you leave Havera and go to Burra?-Havera is a very small island, and it became too strait for me.

932. The population was increasing too rapidly?-Yes.

933. Had you not a holding of your own there?-No; I got married, and had to look out for a holding somewhere; and I was, by the law of necessity, compelled to move against my will.

934. Are there any dealers in Scalloway who would buy your fish from you if you were allowed to sell them?-Yes; there are Charles Nicholson and Robert Tait.

935. Do they buy fish cured?-They buy them either cured or uncured, and also what may be properly called half-cured-that is, salted but not dried.

936. Do they employ fishermen?-Charles Nicholson employs fishermen.

937. Do the fishermen who are employed by Nicholson and Tait supply their fish to them green or dry, as they like?-They only give them to them green, so far as I know.

938. But these merchants also buy cured fish from independent fishermen?-Yes.

939. With regard to your farm, do you sell any produce off your land?-We sell none.

940. What does it bear?-Oats and barley, or bere, and potatoes or turnips, and some cabbage.

941. Do you sell these things, or do you consume them yourselves?-We consume them either by ourselves, or by the stock on our farm. We have some cattle and sheep and pigs .

942. Do you sell your stock?-The cattle are generally sold to relieve the tenant's necessities, and in order to let him have a few shillings in money.

943. What is that money used for? Is it for things that you cannot buy in the store?-Yes; and sometimes for paying our rent.

944. I thought the rent was entered as part of your account with Messrs. Hay?-If our earnings are not sufficient to meet Messrs. Hay's account, or if we have overdrawn our account with them, then we sell an animal, and the price of it is put into the account.

945. Is there anything else for which you have to sell your cattle?-I am not aware of anything.

946. How do you sell them? Is it at a roup or at a public market?-We sell our cattle where we can dispose of them to the best advantage-sometimes at the market at Lerwick, and at other times cattle-dealers come round and ask us for them. If we choose to give them to the dealers, we have every advantage in selling our cattle.

947. You are quite free to sell them where you like-Yes.

948. Have you any ponies in Burra?-Yes; a few of the men have some.

949. And you have also and poultry?-Yes.

950. You can dispose of them as you please?-Yes.

951. Is there any shop on the island?-No.

952. You have to go over to Scalloway or to Lerwick for all your goods?-Yes. We don't have liberty to have any shop on the islands.

953. Are Messrs. Hay sometimes largely in advance [Page 20] to the people on the island after a bad season?-Yes; I believe they are largely in advance in some seasons.

954. Then they will trust you for a year or two until a good season comes, and the balance is then paid off?-Yes; most commonly they do that.

955. You would not have had that advantage if you were all free to fish for anybody you liked?-We believe that, if we had our freedom, we would not require to have that advantage. We believe we would be so clear that we would be independent. Neither have we the advantage of having a shop there, and keeping the penny among ourselves.

956. Do you think the goods you get at Messrs. Hay's shop are expensive as compared with the prices you would pay for them elsewhere?-I never thought that, and I never thought them worse than we could get elsewhere.

957. But as to the price, do you think they charge more for their goods than other people?-No; I have nothing to say against that.

958. Or as to the quality?-Both as to the quality and the price I was always satisfied as I would have been with any other body's.

959. You don't suppose they charge a higher price in consequence of the long credit they give?-No.

960. You get your goods from January onwards, and they are not settled for until the following January?-That is so.

961. But then there is credit on both sides; so that I suppose there need be no higher price on that account?-That is the case, so far as I am aware.

962. Is there anything else you wish to say?-You have not asked what may be the difference on a hundredweight of fish, if we had the advantage of selling them for ourselves, as against what we get for them under the present system. I believe the difference would be between 2s. and 3s. per cwt.

963. Do you think your profit would be 2s. or 3s. more per cwt. if the fish was sold by you?-Yes; if we were free agents to act for ourselves.

964. But in the case of a man who was curing on a large scale, has he not an advantage in the way of curing cheaper than a single fisherman would have?-We cannot think he would. We know what we could, cure them for ourselves: that is a matter within our own knowledge. The merchants tell us they cure, at a dearer rate, but we cannot enter into their accounts. If it costs them so much to cure the fish, then they must cure them much dearer than we know they could be cured for by ourselves.

965. Is it from your experience in Havera, as compared with your experience in Burra, that you believe you would be 2s. or 3s. per cwt. better off by curing the fish for yourselves?-That is from my experience in Havera, and also from my experience in Burra.

966. But you have had no experience of selling your own fish cured for at least thirteen years?-Not cured; but I have had a little experience in half-cured fish since that time.

967. Have you sold fish half-cured?-Yes; I have sold a little this year.

968. Were these small fish?-Yes.

969. Did you make more of them than you would have done by delivering them to the merchant?-I did.

970. Was any objection taken by Messrs. Hay to your selling the fish in that way?-I must tell the truth: we did smuggle a few. We would not like them to know of it, but I suppose they will know of it by and by.

971. Is there much smuggling carried on in that way among the fishermen?-I believe it is done on a very small scale.

972. But the restrictions you are under do induce you to smuggle occasionally, in order to get a larger price?-Yes; and on some occasions, in order to get the ready money.

973. Do you not always get ready money for smuggled fish?-We can get it now.

974. From people in Scalloway?-Yes; but if had our liberty like Englishmen, we would have no need to smuggle.

975. Is there anything more you want to say about the matters referred to in your letter?-I think I have said all I wish to say, only that our errand in here has been undertaken under the protection of you, as a commissioner from Her Majesty's Government, who can give us our liberty; and if it had not been on that account we would not have come.

Lerwick, January 2, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.

976. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes.

977. You hold some land in that island under Messrs Hay, and you fish for them in the home fishing?-Yes.

978. Do you go to the Faroe fishing also?-No; I never went there.

979. You have been present during the examination of Walter Williamson?-Yes.

980. Do you concur generally in what you have heard him say?- Yes.

981. You have been engaged in the herring fishery also?-Yes.

982. And you were one of the parties who signed memorial to the trustee on the estate of Scalloway some years ago?-Yes.

983. Can you remember how long it is since that petition was got up?-I cannot exactly say, but think it was eight years ago.

984. Was it shortly after you were asked to sign the obligation which Williamson mentioned?-Yes.

985. Do you remember the grievances that were set forth in the memorial?-Were they the same things that you are complaining of now, or was there anything additional?-There was nothing additional.

986. Was there any prohibition at that time to sell tea to your neighbours?-There was very little of it sold.

987. But was it forbidden to sell tea to your neighbours?-Yes.

988. Is that forbidden now?-We have never tried it since.

989. Who forbade it?-Messrs. Hay.

990. Why?-Because they won't allow that to be done on the island.

991. What was their reason for that? Did you want to sell tea?- We did not want to sell tea, except that we were locked up in the island, and we could not get to Scalloway every day. If a storm came on and lasted for perhaps eight days, we could not get to the shop; and some parties might have had a pound or half a pound of tea in small parcels, and they would supply it to any of their neighbours who happened be run out.

992. How did any of the people happen have much tea by them?- They were working among the fish for Messrs. Hay, and they took the tea out of their store.

993. Why did they take it? Did they not want it?-They sometimes required a few pennies. The merchants at that time would give nothing but truck, and the people took the tea, and sold it to their neighbours in order to get a few pence.

994. How do you know that was forbidden? Was there any order issued in writing, or otherwise, stating that people should not sell tea to their neighbours?-It was ordered by word of mouth, and it was also stated by the obligation which we had to sign in Messrs. Hay's office.

995. Did you sign that document?-Yes.

996. So that, you are now under a written obligation not to sell tea?-Yes; a written obligation.

997. Have you heard anything of late years about that prohibition against selling tea?-No.

998. Is it common for a neighbour who has got more tea than he wants, to sell it to another?-No they don't do it now.

[Page 21]

999. Why?-I don't know, except just that they are afraid.

1000. Then, if you want tea or any other goods, must go direct to the store at Scalloway for them?-Yes, if we have not got money. If we had money, then we could go to any store we like, and buy what we want.

1001. Have the Burra people any complaints to make with regard to oysters?-I don't deal in them.

1002. You were engaged in the herring fishery. Was there any special complaint made in the memorial, or have you any special complaint to make just now, as to that fishery?-The herring fishery is carried on under the same restrictions as the ling,

1003. You are bound to hand over the fish to Messrs. Hay, and they are entered into the account the same as the others?-Yes.

1004. When you prepared that petition some years ago, did you land your herring on the island, or were they handed in to some vessel?-There were two or three years about that time when a vessel came to Hamnavoe, and we measured them on board of her. When she was full, we had to measure them on shore.

1005. Who sent that vessel?-It was a man who came with a vessel from Hamburg for herrings, and he bought them from Messrs. Hay.

1006. Did the man pay you for the fish?-No; we had nothing to do with him, so far as the paying was concerned.

1007. Was it one of the grievances set forth in the petition, that you were paid in goods for these herrings, while the Wick fishermen got a larger price in cash?-I don't remember about that.

1008. You say you signed the obligation about eight years ago. Have you ever endeavoured or wished to break through it and to obtain your liberty?-No.

1009. You have never attempted that?-No.

1010. Does that obligation bind your family as well as yourself?- Yes, if they like to do it.

1011. But in the obligation itself did you become bound that your sons as well as yourself should fish for Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

1012. Have had to pay liberty money for any of your sons?-Yes; I had to pay it for one of my sons-Robert Smith. He was two years away. One year he was with Mr. Harrison, and the year following he was with Mr. Garriock, and I paid liberty money in these years to Messrs. Hay on his account.

1013. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago.

1014. Then the obligation to fish applied to the Faroe fishing as well as to the home fishing?-Yes; to the whole fishings.

1015. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for your sons leaving the home fishing and going to some other employment?- No; they never followed the home fishing. They would not go to it.

1016. Then, if a man does not choose to go to the home fishing at all, he is free?-Yes.

1017. But if a man does go to the home fishing he is to fish for the landlord?-Yes, if he be a tenant.

1018. But he need not fish unless he likes?-No; it is only if he does fish, and if he is a person holding land, that he must fish for Messrs. Hay.

1019. Or if he is the son of a landholder, and living in his father's house?-Yes.

1020. I believe the liberty money amounts to 20s.?-Yes.

1021. When is it paid?-When we settle.

1022. Is it deducted from the amount due?-Yes.

1023. Do you know of any cases where that liberty money has been paid back by Messrs, Hay?-Yes.

1024. Was it paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid back to me for my son.

1025. Then the money you mentioned just now as having been paid by you for your son was paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid back to me afterwards.

1026. How long afterwards?-I think about a year and a half.

1027. Did you ask for it to be paid back?-Yes; I asked it over and over again before I got it. I think I asked for it two or three times, if I remember right.

1028. Did they give it back to you as a favour?-Yes.

1029. Was the amount of liberty money fixed in the obligation which you signed?-Yes.

1030. Did you get a copy of that obligation?-No.

1031. Have you been spoken to about that obligation since you signed it, and told that it was in force?-Never, except when they charged liberty money. I objected to pay it; and their answer was, that I had signed an obligation to pay it, and therefore that I was obliged to do so.

1032. Do you know any one else who has paid liberty money within the last year or two?-Yes; Andrew Laurenson paid it for his brother.

1033. Is Laurenson here?-No.

1034. Why did he have to pay it for his brother?-Because I think the father was not able, and Andrew had just to pay it.

1035. Were both the Laurensons living with their father?-No, Andrew was not living with him; he was married, and had gone away. But Robert was living with his father; and Andrew paid the money for the brother, because his father could not.

1036. Has there been any other case?-Yes; Peter Henry paid liberty money for himself about three years ago.

1037. Was Laurenson's money paid back?-Yes.

1038. After he had asked it?-I don't know if he asked it, but I know that it was paid back.

1039. Was Henry's paid back?-I don't know.

1040. Did these cases all occur about the same year?-Yes, all about the same time.

1041. Is it the case that at time you had several bad fishing seasons?-Yes.

1042. And is it the case that at that time Messrs. Hay were largely in advance to the fishermen in Burra?-Yes; for some years they were largely in advance.

1043. Did they want to get the young men to go to the Faroe fishing in order to get their parents out of debt: did they assign that as a reason for charging liberty money?-Yes, sometimes they did.

1044. Did they tell you, or did you understand, that these fines were required in order to induce the young men to go to the Faroe fishing, and to pay off the debt due by their parents?-Yes, I understood that.

1045. Were you told that by Messrs. Hay at the time?-Yes.

1046. Are these the only cases in which such fines have been exacted, within your knowledge?-Yes.

1047. Have all the landholders since that time fished for Messrs. Hay, to your knowledge?-Yes; they have all fished for them at the home fishing.

1048. And at the Faroe fishing too?-There are very few of the landholders who go to the Faroe fishing.

1049. Are there many men in Burra who go to the Faroe fishing?- Yes, a considerable number.

1050. But these are the younger men?-Yes; generally they are.

1051. And they are not bound in any way?-No, are not now.

1052. Do they generally ship with the Messrs. Hay?-Some of them do, and some do not. It is not general thing with them to do so.

1053. They can do as they like?-Yes.

1054. Can your sons do as they like in that matter, and ship with any person they please?-Yes.

1055. Do they go to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

1056. And you are not asked to pay liberty money for them now?-No.

1057. Is that because Messrs. Hay have ceased to require payment of liberty money?-Yes; they thought the thing was not legal, and they have given it up.

1058. Are your sons living in your house still?-One of them is, but the other one is married, and is away from me.

1059. And the one who is living with you goes to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

1060. Have you ever cured fish for yourself?-No.

1061. Then you don't know from your own experience, [Page 22] whether you would have a larger profit if you did cure them on your own account?-No; not from my own experience.

1062. Except when you signed the document you have mentioned, was there any occasion on which you were told by any of the firm of Hay & Co. that you were bound to fish for them only?-I don't remember any other time.

Lerwick, January 2, 1872, THOMAS CHRISTIE, examined.

1063. You are a fisherman in Burra, and a tenant under Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

1064. You have been present during the examination of the two preceding witnesses?-Yes.

1065. Do you concur with them as to the most of the facts which they have stated?-Yes.

1066. Did you sign the obligation which has been spoken to?-I signed it once, about eight years ago.

1067. Did you do so willingly, or did you refuse first?-I did so willingly.

1068. Had you not received warning to leave your ground first?- No, I don't think it.

1069. Were you ever told that you would have to leave your ground if you did not sign it?-Yes; I suppose I was.

1070. Have you complied ever since with that obligation to fish for Hay & Co.?-Yes.

1071. You did not try to break it in any way?-No.

1072. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for yourself or any of your children?-No.

1073. Have you cured fish for yourself?-No.

1074. Is it your opinion, as well as that of the other witnesses, that you would make a larger profit if you cured your own fish?-I think we would.

1075. Can you give me any reason for supposing that?-No; no particular reason, because I never cured them.

1076. But you know that is the general belief?-Yes.

1077. Have you any knitters in your family?-Yes.

1078. The letter you have signed says that they are invariably paid in goods, both for the goods they sell, and also for their wages when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers: is that so?-Yes.

1079. Have you ever sold any articles for your daughters?-Yes.

1080. Do you sometimes take the goods they knit the shops and sell them for them?-Yes.

1081. Where have you taken them to?-To Linklater.

1082. Do you keep an account with him?-No.

1083. You just take the article in and sell it?-Yes, and get what they want for it.

1084. Do your daughters knit with their own wool?-No, they knit with wool supplied by Mr. Linklater.

1085. Is it through you that the dealing generally takes place?- No; not through me.

1086. Your daughters generally manage it themselves?-Yes.

1087. But you have brought in articles which they have knitted?- Yes; on one or two occasions.

1088. On these occasions what took place?-I was just ordered to get some things from the shop, and I got them.

1089. Did you ever ask for money?-No, they never expected to get money, they never asked for it.

1090. You were told the articles that you were to bring home, and the value that was to be put upon the shawls?-Yes.

1091. Did you not leave the fixing of the price to the merchant?- He knew the price himself. It was marked down in the book, what I brought in for them was added to the account.

1092. Do your daughters have a book?-No; but the merchant enters these things in his own book.

1093. Then they have an account with Mr. Linklater-which is kept in his book?-Yes.

1094. What is the name of your daughter?-Elizabeth Christie.

1095. Is the account in Mr. Linklater's book kept in her name?- Yes.

1096. You say that you buy your goods until the end of the year from your landlord's shop: is it from the shop at Scalloway or in Lerwick that you generally buy?-I buy from both places.

1097. Is there an account in your name in both shops?-Yes; I can go to any place I like.

1098. And you get the same class of goods at both?-I don't think there is much difference.

1099. Do you get every kind of goods at both shops?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 2, 1872, CHARLES SINCLAIR, examined.

1100. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes.

1101. Do you hold any land there?-No, I have only a room, and pay rent for it, in an old mansion-house on the island.

1102. To whom do you pay rent?-To Messrs. Hay.

1103. How do you make your living?-By fishing, and sometimes by going as master of a small coasting vessel.

1104. Does that vessel belong to you?-No; I sometimes get employment from the owners in Lerwick,-from Mr. Leask, or Messrs. Hay, or others.

1105. You have not a permanent employment as master?-No, but I am competent for taking charge of a vessel at times.

1106. Is that a vessel employed in the fishing trade?-Yes, and sometimes in the coasting trade, taking cured fish to any port in England or Scotland.

1107. You have been present during the examination of the previous witnesses during the day?-Yes.

1108. Do you concur generally in what they have stated?-So far as I can remember it, I do.

1109. Is there anything additional you want to say?-Yes. Our wishes are to have our liberty to fish for whoever we please, and to make the best we can of our fish.

1110. But you are not bound in any way?-I am bound to fish for Messrs. Hay in the long-line and herring fishing in the island.

1111. Did you sign any obligation-to fish for Messrs. Hay only?- No.

1112. Then in what way are you bound?-By our father signing an obligation.

1113. Are you the son of a Burra man?-Yes.

1114. Did your father sign the obligation eight years ago?-Yes.

1115. What reason have you to suppose that binds you to fish?- My father told me when he came home, that neither he nor his sons were to be allowed to fish to any other men than Messrs. Hay.

1116. Is it eight years since he told you that-Yes.

1117. Is your father alive?-Yes, he is here. His name is John Sinclair.

1118. Have you attempted or wished to fish for any other than Messrs. Hay?-Yes; in the Faroe fishing, but nowhere else.

1119. Was there any objection taken to your doing so?-No; because at the time when I broke off from Messrs. Hay they could not suit me with a vessel. I was competent to take charge of a vessel, and they had none to give me, and for that reason they let me off.

1120. Do you go in for the home fishing?-Sometimes.

1121. Have you fished for any other than Messrs. Hay in that fishing?-No, not in the long-line fishing.

1122. Have you proposed to do so?-No.

1123. Then you have never been interfered with in any way yourself?-No, not further than that. Occasionally I have had to fish a little for them when I was not engaged at anything else.

[Page 23]

1124. How had you to fish to them?-To support myself.

1125. But if you had chosen, you might have engaged with any other merchant than Messrs. Hay?-No, not for the home fishing.

1126. Why do you say that?-Because we were made to understand that we would not be allowed to do so.

1127. You say that your only reason for understanding that, was what your father had told you. What would have been the result to you if you had done it?-The result would have been, that my father would have been turned out on my account.

1128. Is that what you were afraid of?-Yes.

1129. And is that the reason why you never tried to get engaged with any other merchant?-Yes.

1130. Had you ever to pay liberty money?-No.

1131. Had your father ever to pay liberty money for you or any of his sons?-I believe he had to pay for one who died.

1132. Do you know that yourself?-I am confident of it, from having heard about it.

1133. Was that when you were young?-Yes.

1134. But that was a good many years ago?-Yes. I cannot remember the time.

1135. Is that all you wish to say?-I remember in my early years, when I was a young fellow, and commenced to fish along with my father, we went chiefly to the herring fishing, and we had to catch herring for Messrs. Hay at a very low price. We had a certain allowance of meal, which I suppose would amount to about twenty-four pounds for seven or eight days; and it was hardly fit to sustain a family of about eight people. My father had to find boats and nets with which to proceed to the fishing, and that put him into debt; and about four years ago I and my brothers had to come good for that debt.

1136. Was that an old debt which your father had contracted?-It was a debt accumulated chiefly in the herring fishing.

1137. When was it begun to be incurred?-About fifteen or sixteen years ago.

1138. Had the debt increased, or did it merely stand over?-It was not regular; it sometimes rose and sometimes fell.

1139. But your father was constantly in debt up to four years ago?-Yes, so far as I can remember.

1140. Was that debt made out by the annual accountings which we have heard about to-day? Was it a debt in the books of Messrs. Hay for provisions supplied at the store?-Yes, and for fishing materials.

1141. Was it for a boat also?-It was chiefly for a new boat and nets. He purchased a new boat, which put him further down than ever.

1142. Was it purchased about fifteen or twenty years ago?-No; it is perhaps ten or twelve years ago.

1143. And you say that about four years ago this debt became so large that you and your brother had to become bound for it?-Yes.

1144. How did that happen?-Because they wrote out, or pretended to write out, what might be called a travelling-ticket, or a warning to remove off the land.

1145. At what term?-Was it at Martinmas?-As far as I recollect, it was.

1146. Some people have taken special objection to the short Martinmas warning. Do you concur in that objection?-Yes. It is only forty days in some cases.

1147. And your father got that warning?-Yes.

1148. How much was he in debt at that time?-Perhaps from 9 to 12. I and my brother Robert had to pay 6, and I believe that was the half of it.

1149. Did you sign any document obliging you pay that money?- No.

1150. Then how did you become bound?-On account of my father being warned out.

1151. But in what way did you become bound? Did you merely promise by word of mouth that you would pay it?-Yes; we had to become good for it.

1152. But you did not sign any agreement?-No; we handed over the money-the sum of 6.

1153. Was that money which you had earned?-Yes.

1154. Was it due to you in your account with Messrs. Hay?-No; I had it in my pocket. I had saved it in other employments.

1155. Then you had no difficulty in getting money for your wages when you wanted it? You were not obliged to take your wages in goods?-No, not our wages; but we have to take the proceeds of our fishing in that way, to a certain extent. They will give us part of that in goods.

1156. Is that the proceeds of the Faroe fishing?-No; of the home fishing.

1157. In the Faroe fishing, what arrangement do you make about the payment of your share?-We can get it all in money if we choose to have it.

1158. You have been at the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

1159. There is no difficulty in that fishing in getting cash at the end of the season?-No; not at the settling times, which take place once a year.

1160. How do you do about your supplies for the Faroe fishing?- We generally apply for them to the merchant we fish for.

1161. And you get a supply from him of provisions, clothing, fishing material, and everything you require?-Yes.

1162. That is marked down against you in the book, and deducted from the price of your fish at the end of the season?-Yes.

1163. Is the price for these fish fixed only at settling time?-Yes.

1164. Who does the boat belong to in which you go to the Faroe fishing?-I have been at that fishing for different owners.

1165. Does the boat always belong to the merchant, or does it sometimes belong to the men themselves?-No; it always belongs to the merchant.

1166. But the whole material required for that fishing, except the boat, belongs to the men?-Yes; and it is purchased by them from the shipowner. We have to find our hooks and lines and provisions. That is all we have to find, the owner finds the rest.

1167. Are you a married man?-Yes, I have a wife and two children.

1168. How are your family supported during your absence at the Faroe fishing? Where do they get their supplies?-They can get them in the owner's store if they require them, but, for myself, I do not require to go there. I can get them at any place I please.

1169. Is it a common thing for the other men who go to the Faroe fishing, to buy their goods at the owners store?-When they don't have money to buy them at other places, they go there for them.

1170. But is that a common thing?-I cannot say exactly. I suppose it is not uncommon.

1171. Does it often happen that a man employed in the Faroe fishing finds an account against him in the owner's store for provisions at settling time as large as the amount which he has to receive for his fishing?-I am not acquainted with that myself.

1172. When you are away at the Faroe fishing, and your family have occasion for money, is there any difficulty in getting it from the parties who employ you?-Not if they know we have money to get. If we have a balance in our favour, they are not against giving it.

1173. How long are you generally absent at that fishing?- Sometimes six months, sometimes seven, and sometimes as low as three months.

1174. Suppose you had been away from home for two or three months, there would certainly be two or three months take of fish, if it was a middling season, for which money would be due to you?-Yes.

1175. Would your wife at home be able to get an advance of money from the merchant in that case, if she required it for the support of the family?-Yes.