16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.

16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in most cases.

16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they had been engaged.

16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been engaged?-No.

16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could not know what they did in other shops.

16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things which the men have to provide jointly.

16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the captains?-Yes.

16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No; the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection have made.

16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?- No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me that he wants to go again in that particular ship.

16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the other men who come forward.

16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.

16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his former crew?-No.

16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not entered in your books?-No.

16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then he takes his own men.

16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and see if there vacant berth that will suit him.

16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along with the rest.

16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take any man he chooses.

16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.

16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?- Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose.

16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the captain?'-Not to my recollection.

16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board and apply to him themselves.

16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?- They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in collecting his men.

16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House, so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that, and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and see the thing completed.

16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them in the articles.

16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there.

16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably; except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him that I can say nothing for him.

16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But there are very few men of that kind.

16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any.

16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the year previous?-I do not recollect any.

16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No, not to my knowledge.

16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use.

16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of 100 or 200.

16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by the master; he was always present.

16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we were concerned. I cannot speak for others.

16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done.

16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them himself.

16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes.

16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might re-ship.

16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one third of new hands?-Yes.

16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that man may be able to recommend another to him.

16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to your recommendation?-Perhaps he does.

16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good hand.

16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than them.

16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he selected any one of the three that he liked himself.

16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another, have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?- In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him before, and he recommended another man with whom he was acquainted, and the captain engaged him.

16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could have from hearsay?-That is very likely.

16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No. If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it, he took him.

16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master.

16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with.

16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will supply them.

16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their custom?-There is no force in that case.

16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not.

16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for the men in case they want it.

16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit, or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they have never been forced to do so.

16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it.

16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do.

16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it was in former times, because there was an agency in the house before my time, and I came into it after it was established.

16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would have given it up sooner.

16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have.

16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?- Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there were then.

16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months is not like one of five or six months.

16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the profits must be less.

16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much to the men this year as we did when we had the agency.

16,596. Even when you had a great number of green hands?- There are not many green hands going now, because the outfits cannot be given to them. That has been the experience of the last few years.

16,597. But, apart from green hands, is not the amount of out-takes by these men less than it was ten or fifteen years ago?-With some men it is as much, and with others far less.

16,598. Do you think that upon the whole it is less?-I have not looked into that, and I could not be sure about it.

16,599. Have you any general impression about that matter?- When there were some green hands going of course they required a larger outfit than they require now.

16,600. I am putting the green hands out of view altogether; I am referring to the able seamen. Do you think that their accounts altogether are not less than they were formerly?-In some cases they are.

16,601. Are they not less upon the average?-I daresay [Page 423] they are, because men do not require so much now as they used to.

16,602. Is it not the case that you have been less willing to make large advances to any class of seamen since the regulations of the Board of Trade in 1867 or 1868?-We would give some men what they required, and to others we would not.

16,603. Do you mean that to men you knew you would give what they required?-Yes, but to strangers we would not.

16,604. Is that because your security in the case of strangers is much less than it was formerly?-Yes.

16,605. Is not that one reason why you are giving it up?-No. The chief reason is that the commission is small, and the trouble is great. We cannot get all the men together at one time for settlement, or else it would be soon done.

16,606. But if you had the same returns from the men's accounts which you had formerly, would not that be sufficient remuneration for your trouble?-It would not.

16,607. Would you require larger accounts now than you had before, even at the most flourishing time?-No, not larger accounts; but we would require a better commission.

16,608. But larger accounts would serve the same purpose, would they not?-I don't know. We have so much trouble in bringing the men together and getting them settled, that the commission is not sufficient for it, and in fact our people wished to give it up in 1867.

16,609. In what respects is the trouble greater than it formerly was?-Because the men don't come together, and we have perhaps to go up with one and then with another, until we get the whole crew discharged.

16,610. Do you mean that formerly you settled at your own office?-Yes. We did so before the Board of Trade regulations were adopted, and we could take the men at any hour in the day and settle their counts with them; but when we have to go to the Custom House, we can only do that in the Custom House hours, and that entails a great deal of extra time and trouble.

16,611. I suppose that in the case of each ship that may involve a dozen visits to the Custom House?-Possibly it may; sometimes more and sometimes less. We try to get as many of the men forward as possible when the ship arrives, if she comes to Lerwick.

16,612. Will each of these visits to the Custom House occupy an hour?-I would not say that it would occupy an hour.

16,613. Could you do it in half an hour?-Possibly we might.

16,614. You would not have more than twenty visits to the Custom House in the case of any ship?-I could not say the number. I have known sometimes that we had to go to the Custom House with one man, and when we came down to the office we found another man ready, and we had just to return again.

16,615. You say in your statement that you are not aware of any case where the men required to be compelled to come forward and pay their accounts?-No. They have always come forward after coming from the Custom House and paid their accounts.

16,616. I suppose the men understand that they are expected to pay their accounts at that time?-Yes, when they get their money.

16,617. Is that the understanding upon which the advances are made to them?-Yes, they know that.

16,618. What would be the consequence if they did not pay at that time?-We would just have to take steps to get payment; that would be the only consequence.

16,619. If a man declined to pay at that particular time, would you have any objection to get him a berth next year?-We could not refuse him, if the master chose to take him.

16,620. But would you help a man to get a berth if he was in debt for the previous year?-I would not care much for that,

16,621. Could you not prevent him from getting access to the captain along with the other men?-No. The place is open for any one to come in, and I could not prevent him.

16,622. But he would have to apply directly to the captain?-Yes, he would have to apply to the captain for a berth; but they all do that.

16,623. But I understand the captain only takes the men who are secured by you?-No; I never said that. The men come to the place themselves, and they know the place as well as we do, because it is always crowded with men, and the captain chooses from among them, what men he wants.

16,624. Are there usually more men than berths?-Yes.

16,625. And I believe there is often a great crush to get into the presence of the captain?-Yes, generally.

16,626. Do you tell me that a man who is in discredit with you, and who has not your good word, or rather who is in your black books, has any chance of getting a berth from a captain?-We never had any experience of such a case, because the men have always paid their accounts.

16,627. Don't you think they have done that under the apprehension that they would not get a berth in the following year, if they did not do so?-I don't know that.

16,628. Might not that be a reasonable explanation of the punctuality with which they come down from the Custom House and pay their accounts?-It might be, but I cannot say. They never expressed anything of that kind to me and I have no reason for thinking so. The men whom we trust are honest men, and we knew they would pay their accounts. If we thought they were not honest men, who would come down and pay their accounts, we would not advance them.

16,629. Would you not give them advances in goods?-No. We always give them the first month's advance in cash.

16,630. But you would not advance them goods if you thought they would not come direct from the Custom House and pay their accounts?-No, not unless they came on their return.

16,631. Have you any doubt that if the master of the ship and the agent concurred in telling the men to go up to the Custom House at once, and have their accounts settled, the men would attend to that direction?-I have done that myself. I have asked the men on board ship before they left it to remain in town until they were discharged at the Custom House, and I could not get them to do so.

16,632. If you told them that you would decline to pay them afterwards, would they not do so?-They knew we could not do that. I remember once making the remark to the shipping master that the law should be imperative upon the men as well as upon the master or agent; and unless that is done I believe the system will never be other than it is.

16,633. When did you tell the men to remain in town until they were discharged?-I have done that several times in late years.

16,634. Did you fix a day when they were to attend?-They know that they should do so within twenty-four hours. For instance if they landed today, we would settle with them tomorrow.

16,635. Would you have any difficulty in doing that?-None.

16,636. Have you ever had any conversation with the men when engaging them with regard to the outfit or supplies they wanted?- Yes. I have had such conversations with them in the shop after they were engaged. They generally go to the country after they are engaged and come back again; there is a certain time allowed to them.

16,637. Had you ever any such conversations with them before they were engaged?-Not about supplies.

16,638. Or about outfit?-No. We don't know what they want until after they are engaged.

16,639. Have you not asked them what they wanted, in order to know?-No. I suppose they can hardly tell themselves until after they begin to inquire.

16,640. But have you never had any conversation with them [Page 424] on the subject before engaging them?-We don't know whether they would be engaged or not until after the engagement was made.

16,641. Have you never had any conversation about what they might want in the event of their being engaged?-I don't recollect doing anything of that kind. It is generally afterwards that any conversation takes place about supplies.

16,642. I suppose, as a matter of course, there is some conversation about that after the men are engaged: they always want something?-When they come to town again before they sail they must have some warm clothing, because men going in that employment require warmer clothing than in any other climate.

16,643. How long is it after the men are engaged before they come back?-They may come back next day, or two days afterwards, or any time the minister fixes for sailing.

16,644. Does the vessel usually lie in Lerwick for some days?-I have sometimes seen her sail on the following day, or sometimes two or three days afterwards. The master fixes the time when the men have to be on board, and they must all be in Lerwick, able to go on board the same day.

16,645. So that in that case there is not much time to arrange about outfit or supplies?-No; I have known men engaged on one day, and go to sea the next.

16,646. Did you give any allotment notes?-We always paid them in cash at the Shipping Office.

16,647. Did you generally give such notes?-Yes, on long voyages, but on sealing voyages we did not.

16,648. Were these notes taken in name of the man's relations?- Yes; of his wife, or father, or sister, or brother.

16,649. Were they not sometimes taken in the name of the agent who was giving them supplies?-No; they were addressed to the agent, to be paid by him.

16,650. But were they not also taken in the name of the agent or of some of his clerks?-Not that I am aware of.

16,651. Was that never done by Hay & Co.?-Not to my recollection.

16,652. Would you be surprised to learn that it had been done in other houses in Lerwick?-It may have been done, but I cannot tell.

16,653. In the conversations you have with the men about their outfit or supplies, is it not usual to suggest what they should take, and where they should get it?-No. We ask them what they want; but sometimes, if it is a man we are doubtful about, we refuse to give him all that he asks.

16,654. But if it is a man you are not doubtful about, do you always ask him what he wants?-We have done that, but he knows what he wants without being asked, and he takes what is necessary.

16,655. Is there any other person here who wishes to make any further statement, or to tender additional evidence?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings in this place.

.

KIRKWALL; THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1872

THOMAS WILSON, examined.

16,656. I am a weaver in Kirkwall. I was born in Fair Isle, and I lived there till two years and nine months ago. There are between thirty and forty families in Fair Island. They live chiefly by fishing for cod, ling, and saith. They fish chiefly in summer. They have always had to sell their fish to the proprietor, that being a condition of their holding their farms. Their farms are from four to six acres in extent, with a right to the scattald. I believe since I left, they are not allowed to pasture their cattle on the scattald without paying for it. The island belonged, when I first remember, to Mr. Stewart of Brough, in Orkney, whose tacksmen were first Mr. William Strachan, Dundee, and afterwards John Hewison, Westray. Mr. Bruce bought the island about 1864. I remember for about fifteen or twenty years before 1864. I am thirty-five years of age. The people had to sell all their fish to Mr. Strachan and Mr. Hewison. They were told so by them. It was always the custom to sell their fish to the tacksman, who also kept a shop for the sale of goods. There was always a shop, but sometimes no goods were in it. I have seen it without meal for more than ten days, and then the people had no resource but fish, or milk, or anything they could get. That happened in summer. In winter the people always had a supply of meal of their own. There are three or four water-mills on the island, where the people grind their own meal. They are the old-fashioned little mills usual in Shetland. When Mr. Bruce got the property, the meal and goods generally became dearer than they were before. I don't think we have ever wanted meal altogether since he bought the island. We have had to send to Sumburgh for it, but have generally got a supply before our meal was quite done. Sometimes, however, it has been very scarce. When Strachan and Hewison had the island, any one might come to the island to trade; and sometimes James Rendall, of Westray, and sometimes James Smith, Cunningsburgh, came with boats bringing goods and meal. They sold about the same rates as Hewison and Strachan. The reason why we ran short was, that we could not got notice sent. The steamer did not use to stop for us then, but now we get her to stop for a letter. We have had to sell the fish to Mr. John Bruce, jun. and to him only, since Mr. Stewart sold the island. The price of fish has been fixed by the man who comes to settle, which is in June or July. That settlement is for the previous year, up to the 1st of May immediately preceding. I have seen them miss a year. I have been told that Mr. Bruce has missed a year since I came to Kirkwall. There are very few pass-books. The accounts are all read over to us. We couldn't always remember everything we had got. I suppose we had just to take it as it was. The factor on the island read over the accounts, and he handed a note of the total to Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine, who came to settle with us. We got cash if there was a balance in our favour, but never in the course of the season. We never asked for money during the season; it was no use to ask for it, for we would not get it. I don't remember if any one ever asked for it. We could sometimes buy from Rendall, who is the only person that has come to trade there since Mr. Bruce bought the island. Since Mr. Bruce came, he has not had liberty to trade; and he erected a stage on the seashore, and people bought from him there. Formerly he and Smith carried on their trade in the house where they lodged. I suppose Mr. Bruce had forbidden that; at least all the people understood so. They used to lodge with Mrs. Thomas Wilson, near the shore. Rendall's prices were always a good deal lower than the prices at the shop. Their tea and sugar were cheaper. Mr. Bruce has tea at 11d., and I remember once at 15d. a quarter; Rendall's was 10d. or 11d. sometimes, I think, as low as 9d. There was not very much difference in the tea. Rendall always had sugar at 6d., common grey sugar; Mr. Bruce's was regularly 7d. I remember [Page 425] Mr Bruce once had loaf sugar at 1d. per oz., or 14d. a lb., about 1867. I don't remember his having loaf sugar in the shop at all at any other time. Rendall's sugar, I think, was 9d. Cottons were bought cheaper from Rendall. His were 10d or 11d., blue and white shirting: Mr Bruce's 1s., or once 16d. The prices did not vary much at Mr Bruce's store from year to year. I remember quite well the price of oatmeal in Fair Isle during my last year there. I paid 30s. a boll. I sometimes got the price when I got it, sometimes only when I settled. I think I knew the price that year only when I settled. The account was sent to me that year after I had left, and 17s. of balance due to me was remitted. I know meal was that year 23s. or 24s. a boll in Kirkwall. Mr Alexander Gibson, merchant, told me so as I came down here. I have the account which was sent to me, in which the total amount of the shop account is entered to my debit (9, 13s. 4d.). The entry 'By amount from the 'Lessing' account, 6, 17s. 9d.,' which is put to my credit, means payment for lodging to workmen, and for work done by myself at the wreck of the 'Lessing' on Fair Isle. The owners or insurers, I suppose, were the employers of the men who worked at the wreck; but the money came through Mr Bruce. 'By cash, left as a deposit, 11th May 1868, 3,' was money I was fool enough to leave in Mr Bruce's hands at previous settlement at his request. I left it in his hands as my banker. I can't remember buying meal from Rendall on any particular occasion that I could specify. But I know I have bought it from him cheaper than I could get it at the shop. I got it from Rendall at 26s., and I am quite sure, that during the 4 or 5 years I was on the island under Mr Bruce, I never got meal at the store for less than 30s. I remember his (Rendall's) selling goods at night; but that was for his own purposes:-to get his away as soon as he could. I think I have heard of him selling goods at night one time when Mr Bruce and Mr Irvine were there, when they were asleep, but I can't give any distinct statement about that. In 1868, James Williamson, Kirkwall had men working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' which he had bought. His meal was cheaper than that at the store. I had to buy some of Williamson's as there was then none at the store. That was in July. I was employed by Mr. Wilson, the factor, in quarrying for a store Mr. Bruce was building. That was settled in the account at the end of the year. All work was so settled I have already shown. It is the entry 'By work with P. M'Gregor, at 1s a day, 13s 7d.'

Six families left Fair Isle, and came to Kirkwall in 1869. We all left because meal was so dear, and wages were so low. They all left of their own accord. I am sure they all left of their own accord, and were not warned away by the landlord. About 100 people left, in my remembrance, for America in 1862. Government helped them. There had been a great scarcity before that. In general, there is always a scarcity some part of the year. They live mostly on tea, and porridge, and oatmeal cakes. In summer there is a little flour sometimes. They get plenty of fish generally in winter, chiefly by fishing from the rocks. [Being asked if he had anything more to say, depones:] Only about the beach fee in the account already shown. I got only the 3 for the whole half year I worked there. I wrought 22 weeks and a half, and I was to get 5s. a week; but he said because I left the work to work at the 'Lessing' I should get no more. I wrote about it to Mr. Bruce, who wanted a detailed account of my work, which I gave him; but I got no definite answer. When Williamson was working at the 'Lessing,' he was not allowed by the laird to employ men Fair Isle. The landlord or his factor said they would be put out if they worked to him. I was forbidden to work to him myself. Mr. Wilson and Mr. Irvine both forbade me to work to him. I was told I would have to leave the island if I did. I was intending to go, and did go, and am glad I goed [sic]. I have been far better off since I left. I have had better wages, better food, and less work since. The other people from Fair Isle who are here, would say the same, I believe. I think Fair Isle people would be better off, if they had liberty to buy and sell with any person they choose.

Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, MARY DUNCAN or QUIN, examined.

16,657. I live in Kirkwall. I was born in Lerwick, and lived there till 7 years ago. I have knitted for 20 years all sorts of articles of hosiery. I knitted both with my own wool, and for the merchants. I was always paid in goods. I never got a penny in money. I was not much in need of it. I often earned 9s. or 10s. in a week when veils were dear; but generally less than that. I knew many women who depended entirely on knitting for a living; and they had to take the goods and sell them for half-price, to any one who was requiring them. It was sometimes not easy to find people who would buy. They had just to ask among their friends if there was any one who wanted the things they had. I know James Coutts, provision merchant, used to take the goods from knitters. I knew many people who gave them to him for tea and sugar, and sometimes meal. I have been in his shop when such transactions were carried on. I don't know if Robert Irvine dealt in that way. I know Betty Morrison. I know that knitters disposed of their goods to her. I have seen her come to my mother's house with tea and sugar for sale. I knew they were from parties who had been knitters to Mr. Linklater and other merchants. She told us who the tea was from, so that we knew quite well it had been got from some one who had been knitting. Sometimes, too, she would tell who it belonged to. We always got it cheaper than it had been sold in the shop. It was always dearer in these shops than in others, sometimes 15d. a quarter, and we got it from Betty Morrison for 10d. That was very common. Jean Yates, and dozens of others, hawked about goods got from knitters in the same way. I had to buy a great deal more dress than I needed, because I could get nothing else for it. Knitters have all plenty of clothes. Some of them I know have far more clothes than food. I always sell my knitting for money here.

[Shown veil got from Grace Slater, February 5.] I would get 2s. 6d. in goods for that, when knitted with my own wool. Seven years ago, and 3 years ago, when I was home, 1s. or 1s. 4d. in goods, according to the market, would have been paid at Lerwick to one who knitted such a veil with merchant's wool.

[Shown veil from E. Malcomson, February 5.] I would get 1s. 6d. for the veil, wool and all, here.

Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, THOMAS PEACE, examined.

16,658. I am a partner of the firm of Peace & Love, drapers, Kirkwall. I deal considerably in Shetland hosiery, mostly bought in Shetland. I get most from merchants, and a little from private parties, knitters, who meet me at Lerwick. I go there annually. I pay both in cash. I don't get any cheaper, or very little cheaper, from the knitters than from the merchants. I have bought as cheap from the shops as I can buy from knitters. I have no means of knowing whether merchants in Lerwick make any profit on the hosiery. I have been told I was getting goods in the shops at the same price they were bought in at. I never saw the goods bought in. I found knitters in Lerwick eager to sell to me rather than to the merchants there. They at first asked me 50 per cent. more than I could buy the articles in the shops. I told them they were for sale. I have had so much difficulty with them in fixing a price that I now buy the most of my goods from the merchants.

I think a cash system would be much better for parties. I don't think it would affect my business as a [Page 426] purchaser from the wholesale dealers in Lerwick. I think it would be better for the knitters if they got clear with the merchants. I think most of them are in debt to the merchant's shops. Any system would be better than running accounts from one year to another, and from the beginning of one's life to the end.



KIRKWALL; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 9 1872

Present-MR GUTHRIE.

LAURENCE WILSON, examined

16,659. I am a fisherman in Kirkwall. I was born and lived in Fair Isle till April 1869. I left because three of us were working at the 'Lessing's' wreck, and we heard we were warned for working at it contrary to the master's (Mr Bruce's) orders, and we left that we might not be warned. There was nothing to do at the fishing at the time worth waiting for, so I and they went to the work. I considered I was under no obligation to fish for him if I could better my circumstance any other way. I was only bound not to fish for any other man than Mr Bruce;-not to fish to him while I could get any other employment. The others who left, did not leave for that reason, but just to better their circumstances. Prices at Bruce's shop were higher than in Strachan's and Hewison's time. Prices were very much raised at the time of the American War, when Mr Bruce got the island. I think prices were higher in Fair Isle than was necessary to cover the prices of carriage. I have no pass-book, for no pass-books were called for or used there. [Produces account for 1868, obtained from Mr Bruce] It was sent to me after I left Fair Isle. 'By amount from boat's account, 4, 0s. 3d.;' that's the price of fish. 'By a quey, sold by auction at Dunrossness cattle sale, 19s., less money and auction expenses, 5s. 6d.-13s. 6d.' We were not allowed to sell our cattle to any one but Mr Bruce. The factor told us. I never attempted to sell cattle to any one else; but no doubt others did. I left the island before the time when Thomas Wilson wanted to sell his cow to Rendall for 5, 10s. If that was so, I think I could have got more for my quey than 19s., but never was offered more. Mr. Bruce did not settle for the spring fishing when he came to Fair Isle in summer; but only up to the end of the year. I bought some meal from James Rendall in summer. It was cheaper than I got it at the same time from the shop. I can't tell exactly the price paid to Rendall that year; but I remember well enough that the shop price was 30s. a boll. I bought from Rendall at 24s. in 1868, and Mr Bruce's price was then 30s. Rendall was also cheaper than the shop in 1867. I got from Rendall tea at 9d. and 10d., while the shop was 11d. and 13d. I am not a very good judge of tea. Rendall's sugar was 6d. (common soft), shop sugar of the same quality being 7d. Rendall's loaf sugar was 8d. I have never bought that sugar at the shop; but I heard factor tell others it was 13d. a pound. I had no particular need of it at that price. There was no difference in the price of coffee. Rendall's cottons were also cheaper, but I don't remember the exact prices. I always keep my own account, and could check the account as it was read over to me by the factor. When I lived in the island I never got money till settlement, and never asked for it, because it was usual. Before Mr Bruce's time we all went sometimes to Orkney for meal, but not since, because he sent supplies. That was partly because we did not need to go, and partly because in Hewison's time we had leave to manufacture our own oil, and we went to sell it, and brought back supplies. We thought we had more of livers before than we got from Mr Bruce. I don't remember getting meal from Mr Bruce for less than 30s. When Mr Williamson was in the island I got some from him 3s. or 4s. a boll cheaper. Rendall was forbidden in Mr. Bruce's time to sell his goods in Mrs. Wilson's house, and he began to sell them at the shore. I think the men in Fair Isle would be better if they had liberty to fish to whom they please. I think they would be better to leave it altogether; for it is a very poor place, and they are subject to many hardships. They remain because some of them are poor and in arrears to the master, and have not means to get away. The hardships are the want of a harbour for large boats: they never have crews of more than three men or two, and two boys. They are sometimes scarce of food in summer, and their boats are too small for crossing often to Orkney or Shetland, though they do so sometimes. It is often a great risk. Larger boats do come sometimes in summer and anchor in a small harbour. They sometimes haul them up; but a big boat can't stay there when there's a weighty sea on, unless hauled up. I know we got 10s. a ton less for fish than was paid at Grutness. It was only an account brought by others that I was to be put away for working at the 'Lessing.' I told Wilson I was going away, and he said he got no word from Mr. Bruce to that effect. After I prepared to go, Mr. Bruce asked me to stay in the same farm. Rents were greatly raised in Fair Isle,-I know that by a letter from the factor a short time ago,-to the amount of 1 to 3 on each farm. Jerome Wilson, the factor, is my uncle. Most people in the Fair Isle are related to one another. Dr. Craig, now of Westray, Mr. Macfarlane and Mr. Arthur have been clergymen in the Fair Isle in my time. I think they always got their supplies from Lerwick. The women sell their hosiery to Mr. Bruce, Mr. Warren, Kirkwall, and James Rendall. All the wool is made up into cloth or hosiery before it leaves the isle so far as I know.

Kirkwall, February 9, 1872, CHARLOTTE SUTHERLAND, examined.

16,660. I live in Kirkwall. I am a knitter. I was brought up in Lerwick, and lived there till 1867 or the beginning of 1868. I then went to Edinburgh, and have been here since May. I was in Lerwick for three weeks in April. I lived with my father, and knitted goods, mostly for the merchants, but sometimes with my own worsted. I did not need to support myself entirely till my father died in 1866. After that, I knitted to Miss Jessie Ogilvy for money, and for the shops for goods. I never asked money from the shops. I got enough money to keep myself from private people; at least I had to be content with it. I had to leave Lerwick for that reason. Knitting does very well in Lerwick for those that have friends to live with and keep them, but not for me when I had to look out for myself. I knew a great many in Lerwick who lived entirely by knitting. I think they were paid almost entirely in goods. I think a number just take the goods out of the shops and sell them again to get their food, and money for rents. I have heard plenty of them say so. I know it was so when I was back lately. I could not say the names of any persons just now. Mary Ann Moodie was one. I never saw any of them selling their goods. Our people were often offered tea or soft goods by parties who lived by selling such [Page 427] articles got from knitters. I knew that because they told us so. When they sell shawls or veils they get so much, and they take a line for the balance, and get what they want till it's done, and sometimes more than they want, and sell it in order to get provisions. The women selling such goods would not name the one they got them from, but just that some one had got it for work, and had to part with a portion of it. I remember these women perfectly well. There was Betty Morrison and Jean Yates, who were in that custom for many years. They surely did a great deal in that way. They did not get the price put on the goods in the shop. I know that, because these women offered us 10d. tea for 6d. I did not take it, because I was always knitting and getting it for ourselves. I never heard of women bartering their goods for provisions in the provision shops. I never heard of them selling or bartering their goods to Robert Irvine or James Coutts.

EDINBURGH: MONDAY, APRIL 8, 1872.

Present-MR GUTHRIE.

GEORGE SINCLAIR SUTHERLAND, examined.

16,661. This sitting was held for the purpose of examining Mr. Methuen before he went to England, but I have received intimation that he is forbidden by his medical adviser from undergoing any examination on account of his health, and I understand you have come here to speak, to some of the points on which I wished information from him?-Yes; he asked me to attend for that purpose.

16,662. You have been for some years in Mr. Methuen's service?-Yes; for eight years.

16,663. In what capacity?-I had charge of looking over the agreements and settling with fishermen for the first five or six years; and I have since conducted the correspondence, and taken the management of his business.

16,664. Have you had the principal management of his business during his absence in consequence of ill health?-I have, during the last twelve months.

16,665. Has Mr. Methuen the largest business as a fish-curer in Scotland, both in curing herring and cod and ling?-Yes; particularly in curing herring, and pretty extensively in the curing of other kinds of fish.

16,666. You don't say that he has the largest business in curing cod and ling?-No, I would not say that.

16,667. Has he stations on every part of the Scotch coast?-Yes, all round the east and west coasts of Scotland; also in the north of England, and at Yarmouth; and also at Howth in Ireland.

16,668. I believe that at one time Mr. Methuen carried on business in Shetland?-Yes.

16,669. Where were his stations there?-They were near Lerwick, at Cumlywick and Sandwick.

16,670. Are these places about ten miles from Lerwick, near Sandlodge?-I understand so.

16,671. Do you know the reason why Mr. Methuen gave up business in Shetland?-He gave up business there about six years ago, in consequence of the proprietor, Mr. Bruce, taking over the whole boats and crews into his own hands, in order to carry on the business himself.

16,672. Have you been in Shetland?-I have not.

16,673. Had you any acquaintance from books or otherwise with the way in which the business was conducted there?-I had very little experience in the Shetland business at all.

16,674. Who settled with the men in Shetland?-It was our managers there.

16,675. Are they in Mr. Methuen's service now?-They were not regularly in his service. There was perhaps one man for one, and another for another year; but the books are in Leith, and they were always checked by one party there. The clerk who checked the books in Leith is still in Mr. Methuen's service, and he could speak with regard to the settlement with the Shetland crews. 16,676. Did he go down to Shetland for that purpose?-He did not. He simply checked the books after they came here.

16,677. Had Mr Methuen a shop for supplying his men with goods in Shetland?-I am not aware that he had.

16,678. I understand he does not keep shops for that purpose at any of the stations?-No.

16,679. Has he any stations in outlying remote places?-In the Hebrides he has.

16,680. In those places does he carry on business efficiently without having any shop with which to supply his men?-Yes; they can supply themselves with what they want.

16,681. Where are those stations?-They are scattered all round the Hebrides: in the Lewis Island, and down in the Southern Hebrides, in the islands of Barra, Castleby, Vattersay, and the Uists.

16,682. Are the stations where the fish are delivered usually near the houses of the fishermen, or have they to go some distance with them?-The fishermen in the Southern Hebrides come round from the east coast of Scotland and go to fish there, and they build themselves huts in which they live while they are ashore. Our coopers and women have houses or huts erected for them also on which they live. They take out a supply of provisions with them, which will perhaps last half the time.

16,683. Who do that?-The women and coopers; and they are always getting provisions back and forward when they are at the fishing; because, in point of fact, in the southmost part of the island of Barra and Castleby and Boisdale, there are no shops at all. There is only one public-house in Loch Boisdale, but there are no shops of any kind there. In the southmost island, Vattersay, is uninhabited, and the men take out provisions and everything they want with them, and they fish there during the six weeks of the fishing.

16,684. Where do they get their provisions?-They take them with them from home, or they get them sent out to them from the east coast.

16,685. Do they purchase them themselves?-Yes.

16,686. You have nothing to do with that?-No. In sending coopers there we allow them extra wages-what are called board wages-during the time they are there, being so much extra per week for going to these places and supplying themselves.

16,687. Is that the universal practice in the Lewis fisheries with all the other fish-curers?-It is. They have coopers to whom they allow so much extra when they are at that fishing.

16,688. But do they follow the same practice with regard to their fisheries?-The fishermen simply get the price per cran which is agreed upon. They are not supplied with provisions at all.

16,689. Is it not the case that there are curers in the Lewis who have shops in Stornoway and other places?-In Stornoway they have shops.

16,690. Are these shops usually kept by the curers?-The curers usually advance money to their fisheries; or if they are from home, they give them a line to the merchant's shop with which they can get any small provisions they require during the time they are out.

[Page 428]

16,691. But do the families of the resident fishermen get supplies from the curers in Stornoway?-Yes; they usually give them a line if they are in poor circumstances.

16,692. Have you any West Highland fishermen in your employment in the Hebrides?-A good many. Last year we had altogether about 270 boats both from the east and west coast, fishing in the Hebrides, at the west coast fishing.

16,693. Did you find that the West Highland men and men resident in the Hebrides were able to supply themselves with provisions in the same way as the east coast men?-No. They are not the same class at all, they are not in the same good circumstances as the east coast men. We usually advance meal and money and materials before they can go to the fishing at all.

16,694. Do you give supplies of meal?-Yes, we usually give them some.

16,695. But I suppose that is merely for their own use during the fishing?-Yes. There is a shop in Stornoway upon which we give the men an order to get any meal they want; but, these men are of the poorer class.

16,696. Have you had any difficulty in getting fishermen in consequence of the necessity they are under for getting advances, and the habit they have got into of receiving advances from the curers in Stornoway?-No; I cannot say that there ever was a short supply of fishermen. At some shops the fishermen had fallen behind in a bad season, and required some advances before they could commence another season, and in that case the merchants have given them the advance they required, and the men fished for them, as it were, without a stated agreement.

16,697. Is that the case everywhere, or are you speaking of a particular locality?-I am speaking more particularly of the northern and western coasts. The practice is quite different along the Moray coast, where the men are in better circumstances, owing to the fact that they have lately had a number of years of successful fishings.

16,698. What is the kind of agreement which you usually make with your fishermen in the Hebrides?-The fishermen who are in independent circumstances agree to a stated price per cran, while the fishermen who require advances usually agree to what is called the current rates given to debted boats. That is usually is to 1s. to 2s. under the free crews; 1s. below has been the usual custom. These have been the general terms of debted boats.

16,699. Is that exactly the same system as is followed at Wick?- Yes; the same system prevails all round the north and west coasts.

16,700. Is there a large proportion of the men in the Lewis fishery who fish upon the terms you have last mentioned?-In some years there are more than others. Of course, if they had had a successful season, there would be fewer of them fishing on these terms next season.

16,701. Will there be one half of them, on the average, who engage on these terms?-Yes; I should say there would be one half of them on the west coast, but not on the east coast.

16,702. In speaking of these men, do you refer to men who are the owners themselves of the vessels in which they fish? I understand that the vessels generally are owned by one or two men, and that the rest are hired men?-That is the case on the east coast, but it is not so on the west. There they usually share and share alike, and probably four or five men have a boat between them, becoming jointly liable.

16,703. Then each man who has a share of a boat gets a share of the fish which are taken by that boat?-That is usually the way. The boat gets one share which goes to the skipper of the boat, as they call him, and the rest of the men get equal shares. In the herring fishing at Wick, the usual way is for one man to own the boat and materials, and to agree so many hired men for the fishing.

16,704. Do you think that a system of paying the men when they deliver their fish would have the effect of keeping them from getting so much into debt as they do now?-I think it would be difficult to work such a system in the far north, or in the Western Hebrides. We could not pay them on delivery there, so as to keep them out of debt. It would certainly be an advantage for all parties concerned if the fishermen would agree to be paid by a price on delivery, as is done on the Fifeshire coast; but from the fact of their being so heavily in debt, and so much encumbered in these northern places, they require some advance before they are able to go to the fishing at all; and it is only perhaps one half of the fishermen who are in an independent position to make terms.

16,705. You think such a system would be an advantage to you because it would simplify your accounts?-Yes; and it would save a great many debts. We reckon that probably 50 per cent. of the amount due by those debted boats is lost to us altogether in our books.

16,706. In what way does that happen?-They run into debt, and get so hopeless, that we have to mark them off as bad debts.

16,707. Does that happen even in your case where you have no shop?-Yes, even where we have no shop or anything of the kind; because, when the fishermen get so hopelessly into debt they don't care what they do, and very often they throw up the fishing altogether and leave the debt. We have had thousands of pounds knocked off in that way as bad debts.

16,708. In what way were these debts incurred?-By advancing the fishermen and trying to get them clear.

16,709. Do you mean advancing them money?-Advancing them money and materials, such as lines and hooks, and always trying to get them to fish clear; but instead of that, some of them go so much behind that their case becomes, quite hopeless.

16,710. Are you speaking now of the boat-owners at Wick and the sharesmen in the Lewis fishing?-Yes; there are a good many debts incurred among them.

16,711. Do these men have ledger accounts in your books, or is there an account for each crew?-We have no individual accounts with the partners. The account is usually headed, So and so and crew, and the place where he belongs to.

16,712. But if you kept a shop and supplied them with goods- as you say the curers in Stornoway do who have shops-there could then be individual accounts in your books?-The curers in Stornoway have not got shops, but they usually give the fishermen an order upon a particular shop where they can go and get supplies. The fish-curers are not the owners of the shops themselves.

16,713. In Wick, I understand, a somewhat similar custom prevails of giving orders upon shops?-Yes; the orders are given upon the shops to get the fishermen supplied during the time of the fishing.

16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the men being in such a poor position.

16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?- No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks, return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately.

16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at the end of the fishing, it is all they need.

16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying the resident men week by week, so that they could have money with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable it might be an advantage.

16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it takes place immediately after the fishing is over.

16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight weeks.

16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more frequently?-On account of the circumstances the men are in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season. They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled.

16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen themselves if they agreed to it.

16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject, but they have always said that such a thing would not work there at all.

16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge.

16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not take place until November or December, and even later?-The reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been completed.

16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes; and they then arrange what the price is to be.

16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish cannot be cured within a month or so.

16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured, and they settle with the fishermen accordingly.

16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by the price of the day.

16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?- Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt. Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and don't require any advances. In the northern districts, on the contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there, they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come out of it.

16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at all?-Yes; they are usually a better class of fishermen altogether on the Fife and Buckie coasts.

16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt.

16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a considerable extent?-Yes.

16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the men, they never think about settling until the end of the season.

16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran.

16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were, by the price of the day.

16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them; and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a stated price throughout it whole season.

16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do if they require them.

16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both.

16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want, the curer becoming responsible for it.

16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash on the nail according to the price of the day? Assuming always that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason in the nature of the business why that system should not be followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is.

16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the market?-Yes.

16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price for every fish they catch.

16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a certain price per fish overhead.

16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be settled with at the end of their six weeks' fishing, in a similar manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle with the men immediately upon the fishing being done.

16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round the Caithness and Buckie coasts.

16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get it to account.

16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It is fixed before the men go to sea.

16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?- Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts, and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season. These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike.

16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but others would not.

16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts.

16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk.

16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it, because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost to nothing, and they are always afraid of that.

16,753. When a great quantity of fish is taken the price falls immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don't want to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many or few.

16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they won't take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their agreement with the bounty.

16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the fish-curers commenced to cure.

16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they gave a bounty of from 5, 10, 15, and up to 30, or even 40, to any crew who would agree to them.

16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes.

16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes; they are all tallied and extended by him.

16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly. They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the commencement of the season.

16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July. They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July, and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that time.

16,761. Is it the same kind of boats that are employed in all these different kinds of fishing?-No; the fishermen have different kinds of boats to suit the different kinds of fishing. In the herring season the owners have hired men in their boats, and each man has his skipper; whereas in the winter fishing five or six or seven of these men go together and fish for themselves.

16,762. But that is still in the same kind of boat is it not?-The half-decked boat is used at Wick; but, in fact, they have boats to suit each fishing that they wish to go to. They usually use the large herring boat for the cod fishing, and a smaller boat for the haddock fishing.

16,763. What is the size of a haddock boat?-I think it is about 26 or 30 feet keel, and open. There is now usually it small deck on it. The large herring boat is from 36 to 42 feet keel; but the boats have increased greatly in size within the last eight or ten years.

16,764. Do you find that as the boats increase in size the fisherman is generally more successful?-Yes. They have the advantage of going a greater distance to sea and staying longer out when their boats are decked, and they return with heavier takes.

16,765. Are you acquainted, from your own experience, with the character of the boats which are used?-Yes. I have gone out to sea and seen how the fishing was carried on.

16,766. Would you consider that a fishing community was at great disadvantage, as compared with other communities, who used only open six-oared boats of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-They would be at a decided disadvantage.

16,767. Perhaps you are aware that that is the case in Shetland, and that in the haaf fishing they go out twenty or thirty miles to sea, and remain out only for it single night at a time?-If they had the large lugger boats which we have on this coast, they could stay out for several nights, having provisions with them and room for their fish.

16,768. Are the large boats you refer to equally available for laying long lines in very deep water and on a rocky bottom?-I cannot say that. There would be more danger with them. They could not work large boats so easily as they could work the small ones.

16,769. What is the depth of water in which your large boats generally fish?-I can hardly say; but when they go out to the banks, thirty or forty miles off, they may fish in thirty or forty fathoms of water in the Moray Firth.

16,770. Perhaps your knowledge of the fishing does not enable you to give much information about that?-No, not practically; but I have gone out three or four times in the season.

16,771. Do you know any district in Scotland or in England where the settlement with the fishermen takes place only once it year as it does in Shetland?-I understand there are two fishings in Shetland: the herring fishing, and the cod and ling fishing.

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16,772. It is the cod fishing I am speaking of. Do you know any place except Shetland where the settlement for any kind of fishing takes place only once a year?-I scarcely know how to answer that question.

16,773. In Shetland the cod and ling fishing is the only one in which they fish for the curers,-leaving the herring fishing out of account,-and they are paid for that only once a year, a considerable time after the end of the fishing. Do you know any of the fishing contracts in the kingdom which are settled at so long a period after the fishing is over?-In Orkney the fishermen are settled with for the herring fishing of August at the end of October. That fishing ends in the middle of September, and they are not settled with before the end of October.

16,774. But is it not the case that, in almost all the cases with which you are acquainted, there is a short season of from five to six weeks, or two to three months, and a settlement takes place at the end of it?-Yes, the final settlement takes place at the end; but at the beginning of the herring fishing the men get an advance. As soon as the fishing is done they get some money to clear off their current expenses, and to pay their hired men; and then about October or November they get a final settlement, when the season's transactions are settled for.

16,775. That is for the herring fishing which commences when?- It commences on 20th July, and that is their great fishing.

16,776. Then there is the Lewis herring fishing, to which a great number of the same men who fish at Wick go?-Yes.

16,777. Is that settled before the herring fishing at Wick begins again?-Yes; it is settled as soon as it is finished.

16,778. Then, if any of these herring fishermen go to the cod and ling fishing in winter, that is settled for the end of that fishing too?-Yes.

16,779. Some of them may perhaps go to the haddock fishing in spring again, and that is settled weekly?-Yes. The haddock fishing is usually settled weekly.

16,780. On the Moray Firth that makes up the whole fishing seasons of the year?-It does.

16,781. And each of these is settled at its close?-Yes.

16,782. So that they will have four settlements in the course of the year?-Yes; four settlements for the various fishings. With regard to the men who go round to the Stornoway fishing, it would scarcely be practicable to settle with them weekly, or before they return home, because of their distance from home and the peculiar nature of the business. The amount actually due to them could not be rightly ascertained until they came home, and all their accounts had been made up and settled.

16,783. Why is that?-Because, from the nature of our business, there are so many places where we give the fishermen the option to run into with their fish, and we would require all the books from these places to be handed over to us and checked, before we could proceed to settle with them.

16,784. Might these fish not be settled for at the station on delivery?-We could settle for them at the station on delivery; but we find so many mistakes occurring afterwards, that unless the books were first checked before the fishermen were paid, we would be apt to lose a good deal.

16,785. How do these mistakes arise?-Because the fishermen may have delivered so many crans of herrings at a different place, where they could not get them entered, and there are so many fishermen of the same name, that one is often confounded with another, unless they are known to the parties, or have 'T' names attached to them, which are a sort of nickname. But the fishermen are quite well pleased when they get their settlement as soon as the fishing is done. It is only along the Fifeshire coast, and about Stonehaven and Aberdeen, that any of the crews during the great summer fishing for herrings are agreed, or deliver their fish by the price of the day, or sell their fish daily.

16,786. Do you know of any other place in the kingdom, except Shetland, where the men have a final settlement only once a year for all the work of the year, whether cod, or ling, or herring, or whatever it may be?-No. The same system does not prevail in any part of the kingdom except Shetland.

16,787. Do you know any other part of the kingdom where the curers universally keep shops to supply their fishermen with meal and soft goods?-No. There may be an instance or two of that kind round the coast, but I may say that I am not aware of any.

16,788. Do you know whether it is a fact that at Wick the men are to a large extent in debt to the curers?-A great many of them are in debt, but there are a great many independent men who are not in debt.

16,789. I understand the men at Wick are divided into two classes: free men and unfree men?-Yes.

16,790. The unfree men have to fish to the curers to whom they owe money on general terms?-Yes; on the general terms of debted boats, and they are settled with by the curer at the end of the season. That is somewhat similar to the custom in Shetland. The fishcurers at the end of the season find the price per cran after they have ascertained the state of the markets, that is, during the month of October, and then pay the unfree men the price, which is usually 1s. per cran less than what is paid to the free boats. That difference is made as a sort of guarantee or security for the risk which they run in advancing boats and nets.

16,791. Is the debt incurred by the fishermen to the curer entirely for boats and nets supplied by the curer?-Yes; and for advances in money.

16,792. Are these advances in money made to a man to enable him to pay his hired men, and so on?-Yes. The fish-curer has a great deal of risk to run in fitting out a debted boat, because he usually becomes security for the hired men's wages; and if he does so he will require to pay them whether they make a good fishing or not.

16,793. What are the wages of the hired men?-They usually range from 6 to 10 along the northern coast.

16,794. What is the cost of a boat at Wick?-A new boat at Wick would cost about 120 or 130.

16,795. Does the curer frequently advance that?-He usually advances one half of it. It is not often that any fish-curer would give a boat to any fisherman who had not any means of his own.

16,796. They expect a fisherman to whom they supply a boat to have some capital equal at least to the cost of one half a boat?- Yes.

16,797. What is the cost of a drift of nets at Wick?-They usually have 40 nets there now, and the cost of a net is about 3, so that a boat and nets would cost about 250 altogether.

16,798. All that expense lies upon the herring fishing alone?- Yes.

16,799. The man, if he is a free man, can use his boat for any of the other fishings except the herring fishing?-Yes. They usually engage also for the Lewis fishing, but not to the same fish-curer. In that fishing he may engage to anybody he likes; but in the herring fishing he must engage to the man who has advanced him his boat and lines.

16,800. Would you say that two-thirds of the men at Wick are unfree men?-No. I don't think there are above one third of the men at Wick who are indebted men. I know every one of them personally, from settling with them, and I have a good knowledge of their circumstances.

16,801. Would you be surprised to hear that an extensive curer in Wick estimated the number of free men at nearly one third, and that the unfree men were two thirds?-I would be surprised at that; because I know that of the number of fishermen who own boats not above one third of them are in debt. It may happen that after a bad fishing many of these men may get a little behind, but after a successful fishing there are not more than one third or one fourth of them who are in debt.

16,802. Are you speaking now only of the boat-owners?-Yes.

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16,803. Does a man remain bound to fish on general terms even when his debt is reduced to a low sum, such as 20 or 30?-He is not bound to do it, because he can find another fish-curer who will give him that advance to enable him to pay off his old curer.

16,804. But then he would be unfree and bound to fish to this new creditor?-The other fish-curer usually gives him the current price of free boats, if the man is considered a good man, when the debt comes as low as that.

16,805. Is there any line where you say that a man becomes free? Do you consider him to be so when his debt is reduced to 50?- When it is under 30, I think the man is considered to be a good man.

16,806. Do you know any district, except in Shetland, where the men are bound to fish for the landlord from whom they hold their ground?-Along certain estates on the Moray coast there are certain villages to which a great many fishermen belong, and I think there is sort of feudal system of the same kind there. There are villages on the estate of Sarklet, near Wick, and at Clyth, and other places, where many of the fishermen have had it in their option to leave the place altogether, and they have usually come down to Wick and been dealt with there as free men. If they fished in the village where they lived before, they had usually to fish to the fish-curer who had obtained the station at groundrent from the proprietor. It was to the advantage of the proprietor to have the fishermen fishing for that curer, so long as they remained on his estate. In these places the price usually ranges 1s. per cran below the town price.

16,807. Is that because the men hold yearly tacks?-They hold crofts year by year, and they are fishermen at the same time.