 |
16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I have a few that I am knitting.
16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work for him.
16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?- From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.
16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one of coarse?-Yes.
16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just now and let me see it?-Yes,
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew; but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the house-work.
16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost entirely.
16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.
16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in goods.
16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked for it.
16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to private people, and they always pay me in money.
16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I like. I don't go to any one in particular.
16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.
16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when we can get them.
16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it, and therefore I never thought of doing so.
16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.
16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea, sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the shop.
16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?- Yes.
16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.
16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is required for the house.
16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.
16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.
16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it has always done so in time past.
16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your mother?-No.
16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the very finest worsted either.
16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?- Yes.
16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?- Yes.
16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.
16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes, sometimes.
16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and price?-Yes.
16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4 yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four borders in the square.
16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25 scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you got 12s. in goods?-Yes.
16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the merchants?-No.
16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid for knitting than when they are fine.
16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality. The worsted was not the very coarsest.
16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per cut?-I cannot say.
16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.
16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?- I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.
16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me here?-Yes.
[Page 409]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.
16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for veils of the same quality.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great number of job articles which tear in the dressing.
16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to 2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.
16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d. worth of worsted.
16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got upon the whole.
16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?- About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz., and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.
16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30 dozen veils, which cost me altogether about 45, and I sold them for about the lot.
16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could. I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or something like that.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr. Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s. 6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s. 41/2d. for it.
16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which you got 9d.?-Yes.
16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for it?-No.
16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls you knit?-Yes.
16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.
16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick.
16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five years.
16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special regulations came into effect-1867.
16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that the men who received their wages at the Custom House were frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.
16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.
16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were here?-Yes.
16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions specified in the agreement.
16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice was stopped.
16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have been in 1869 or 1870.
16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.
16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom House?-Not so far as I am aware.
16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it done.
16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.
16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could see them keeping the deduction off.
16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.
16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done, but it has not been done at all times.
16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye watching everybody.
16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a press of business?-Occasionally.
16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.
16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that either.
16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an understood thing that they should do so.
16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.
16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have overheard the agent and the men talking about it between themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he came to settle the other account at the shop.
16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.
16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of seamen?-Occasionally.
16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are always engaged there.
16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing vessels?-Yes.
16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?- Yes.
16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.
16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not aware. They are all selected before they come before us.
16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not observed that.
16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.
16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the subject?-I think so.
16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no doubt there was little objection at the time.
16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it was troublesome.
16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to recollection.
16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.
16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.
16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.
16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the first year.
16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at once.
16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and handing over the net balance only.
16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took place before you?-No.
16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?- Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I could not be positive.
16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can attend to them, they are.
16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.
16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.
16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying, so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to stop all these informalities.
16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.
16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in settling, most undoubtedly.
16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.
16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.
16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better for all parties.
16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the course of ten hours for any whaling crew.
16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.
16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that.
16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of delay?-I never did.
16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands, there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.
16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first instance without directing them to come and receive their wages?-I think so.
16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my knowledge.
16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly at Lerwick harbour.
16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD, examined.
16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.
16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.
16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool of different kinds-grey and black and white.
16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth about that.
16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly got for these little haps.
16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.
16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.
[Page 411]
16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.
16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I got whatever I asked.
16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference whether I paid for it in money or in goods.
16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.
16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.
16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.
16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just now?-Yes.
16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.
16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland and Davis Straits, for the most part.
16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling fishing?-No.
16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time; but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was able to go.
16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson & Co.
16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have been in Greenland almost every year since then.
16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom you were engaged?-Always.
16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.
16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.
16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent here, and sometimes not.
16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to send here for money when she could not get money from her neighbours.
16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so far as ever I knew.
16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of the time, but not at first.
16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you were absent?-I have done so lately.
16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left, that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.
16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.
16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?- No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things from him then.
16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.
16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she required anything.
16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs. Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.
16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.
16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there, and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had been paid myself.
16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes.
16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.
16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get credit from a neighbour.
16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even although there was an account due to him.
16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an account due?-Yes.
16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you were away?-Yes.
16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she asked it in that way?-I cannot say.
16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.
16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.
16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.
16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.
16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.
16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted to him.
16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at first.
16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she has to sign it before she gets the money.
16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies; these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.
16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you remember?-Yes.
16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.
16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a month's pay every month when I was away.
16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.
16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.
16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that time?-No.
16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.
16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.
16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with the agent?-Not very much.
16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I don't remember; I don't think it was very much.
16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit, perhaps?-Perhaps there was.
16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money, that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as I am paid myself.
16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at once?-Yes.
16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.
16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.
16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.
16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere else?-Yes.
16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most suitable articles.
16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had an account with the agent.
16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No, I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.
16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he does.
16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not many ships that come here.
16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the case.
16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best chance of being engaged?-I don't know.
16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent, or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than another?-I cannot say that he has.
16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression or not I cannot say.
16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.
16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.
16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think there is some cause like that to account for it.
16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.
16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop, you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next year?-I believe I would.
16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.
16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I suppose I would have a chance.
16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I never saw that done.
16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account when I could.
16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.
16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard about anything of that kind.
16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about that matter?-No.
16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think anything would happen at all.
16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.
16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.
16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months afterwards?-Yes.
16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for that year.
16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's books.
16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.
16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.
16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the book?-No; I did not know that until then.
16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.
16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of course I would have paid it if I had been able.
16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once, to my recollection, in that way.
16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr. Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books against me next year.
16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.
16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it will be more than twelve years ago.
16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at settlement?-No.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.
16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper of a Faroe smack.
16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr. Leask's.
16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?- I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.
16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.
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16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.
16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.
16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.
16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient. For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us through part of the season.
16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?- Only very little.
16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?- Generally about the 1st of December.
16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in cash?-Yes.
16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.
16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run an account of about 30 or 40 for myself and the vessel.
16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask 4 or 5 or 6 at a time, just as I need it.
16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?- No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.
16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.
16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.
16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?- Yes.
16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I leave my money along with Mr. Leask.
16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his hands as I would get from the bank.
16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole balance that is due to you?-No.
16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed to you for it in your next account?-Yes.
16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.
16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.
16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked for money and did not get it.
16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what he has to get.
16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.
16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They always do so.
16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity in time past.
16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?- No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew any men who did not take some supplies from him.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.
16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.
16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to the seal and whale fishing.
16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.
16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.
16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.
16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.
16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?- Yes.
16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.
16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but I think it my duty to do so.
16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.
16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange shop for them, because they would not give them to us.
16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?- Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not know us.
16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I don't take it out in that way.
16,355 But you could it?-Yes.
16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at another shop?-Yes.
16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.
16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it, but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.
16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them out of the agent's shop.
16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.
16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask for some time.
16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.
16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.
16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment note, but not otherwise?-Yes.
16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you had it?-I do.
16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.
16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.
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16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants it?-Yes.
16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.
16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.
16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.
16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I suppose so.
16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling, that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.
16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?- Yes.
16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.
16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season; but I have changed agents occasionally.
16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co. to Mr. Leask then.
16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I wanted to go in. That was my only reason.
16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you changed?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.
16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I am.
16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.
16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I have mostly been in the south.
16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.
16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert Mullay.
16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?- Not for supplies, only for fishing material.
16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not ask for any; I did not want them at the time.
16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.
16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for it?-I did not ask for it.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.
16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.
16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted with any person except the agent who will give me credit and therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my absence except through him.
16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my half-pay is usually 25s.
16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.
16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too small?-Yes.
16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from the agent who engaged you?-I have.
16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.
16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They said they did not know me.
16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the agent's for what I wanted.
16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling voyage?-Commonly they do.
16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are running an account with the agent?-No.
16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear with the agent at that time.
16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents before I went on another voyage.
16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in Lerwick.
16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if he had one?-Yes.
16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from an agent he should go and get his things from him.
16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you that reason for his refusal?-Yes.
16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.
16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.
16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the agent, and had signed clear in his books.
16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.
16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it in the month of March.
16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your supplies?-Yes.
16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not, they usually make a change with the first month's advance they get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and best.
16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.
16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places for what we want.
16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?- Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose, or as much as we have a mind to take.
16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go up to the Custom House.
16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at the Custom House?-No.
16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was due.
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16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.
16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?- Yes.
16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay the balance due.
16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your account?-No.
16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything of the kind had been said to me.
16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.
.
LERWICK: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 6,1872.
JOHN HARRISON, examined.
16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.
16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.
16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.
16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.
16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.
16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My father is a proprietor to a very small extent.
16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with land?-In no way whatever.
16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business, with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have gone into our service.
16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent times.
16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four years back.
16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe fishermen?-Yes.
16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be laid down for their observance.
16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do so?-I know of no such obligation.
16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.
16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and who had money in their own possession.
16,441. How many of these cases have come within your knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not particularize them. There have been several cases which have come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men; but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the result would be that they would be warned out.
16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen. One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him which hindered him from going.
16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly interested in it ourselves.
16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years ago; I cannot say precisely.
16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country; and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.
16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.
16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.
16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?- By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty different occasions, that although men were due us from 5 to 18 or 20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken, and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than employ them.
16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that ever was made.
16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes, I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have; but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free. If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you, and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the fishermen.
16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence, although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold over a very unwilling slave.
16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible.
16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the results?-Decidedly.
16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said, 'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said, 'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried, and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of 50, the best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in bank.
16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or five years since they left the island.
16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not more than three years ago, some of them.
16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to us.
16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and turning them out of the island.
16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours, and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies which they might receive, from our house during the time of the fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord.
16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the remedy one can hardly point out
16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day, and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever, that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as a present for being allowed to sit without leases.
16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is marked down, so far as I know.
16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.-
16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger price for their fish.
16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys an article in every other trade in the world.
16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat.
16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the season.
16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the result would be that that party would have the power over these men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.
16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?- Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked.
16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the property belongs.
16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s. per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy.
16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord or tacksman.
16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the crofters against you?-No, not made against us.
16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money, 14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I entered into the trade.
16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes.
16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first, because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves and their families.
16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe, however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply getting payment for what they delivered would make them more independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the tenants in the islands who fish.
16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft indeed which would not support them for at least six months a year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of food, except from the charity of others.
16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland. Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their manufactories going.
16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of supplies?-I consider it would be much better.
16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood.
16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or three years.
16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming forward who would have been able to have given the best possible evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me.
16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my experience of the people and of the system, which experience has extended over more than 20 years.
16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered according to the contract price, would have such a power over the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at the settlement.
16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present enjoys.
16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know that under the present system they are liable to get forty days' warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas.
16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a system of money payments were adopted they might not consider themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for the goods which they got at his shop.
16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the fishermen as it now exists.
16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements, providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever port they may agree to deliver them at.
16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not, as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the crew, say from at the lowest to 7 or 8 in other cases. If he did not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having a contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all. The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference.
16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that they take?-That it is the agreement
16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a contract before the fishing commenced.
16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen, generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried.
[Page 419]
16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen so very heavily.
16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?- There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has, in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining 100.
16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that.
16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands.
16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in Shetland.
16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live, and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after the fish have been landed.
16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and salt?-Yes.
16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably before starting on their second voyage?-Yes.
16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick.
16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen; and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever. Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present, if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more capital than they do have if a system of short payments were adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they would be placed in quite a different position.
16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession, obtain a renewal of their bills.
16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.
16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?- In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever, because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.
16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.
16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some other necessary article for the house.
16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?- In some cases he may not be able to do so.
16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances from their employer although they may have money of their own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a certain extent.
16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the case.
16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the fishermen?-I believe it does.
16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?- I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to have paid off the debt.
16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way, that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for them until the end of the season.
16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner whale fishing at Iceland.
16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?- The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you, refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average payment to each was 23, 15s., and in many cases those who had the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction except where they wished, were the men who took up the least advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings of the 81 men and boys in that year were 3022, 18s.; the total amount paid in cash was 1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of 23, 15s.
16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.
16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.
16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen there?-The father of the family went to Burra.
16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and several sons?-Yes.
16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?- Yes.
16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke out a living in the best way he could.
16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not sufficient to keep them.
16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.
16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more economical.
16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as well as others.
16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than under the other system?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in Lerwick?-I am.
16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.
16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement:-]
'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief management of their ship-agency business, and particularly as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The masters generally selected first those men who had been with him the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially. Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent. instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned, that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master, but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters' accounts there, although not permitted here.' |
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