14,320. Have you ever known a man who required an outfit for a voyage taking it from any agent but the one who engaged him?- Yes.

14,321. Can you name any case of that kind?-I could not exactly name a case.

14,322. Could you show me any case in your books in which the man has not got some outfit from you?-Not very many, I think. On short voyages to the sealing, a considerable number of the men would not require it. Men who had been going there for years, and who were only going on a short voyage, would be well enough provided with clothes. Generally men who get good wages are all provided with their necessary outfit.

14,323. But you think you could show me very few cases in your books in which a man did not require some outfit and did not get it from you?-On long voyages perhaps there are not many.

14,324. Did you ever supply an outfit to a man going on a whaling voyage upon the engagement of any of the other agents?-I think not exactly an outfit; but we have sold them individual articles.

14,325. Did you ever do that on credit?-I daresay we have.

14,326. Do you know that you have?-Yes.

14,327. In what case?-I could not exactly name a case, because if a man comes in wanting to buy anything we sell it to him, if the other agent did not have it, or he did not choose to take it from him. I know that has been the case both with us and with others.

14,328. Have you run an account with the man for that?-If he was well known to us, we would have no objection to give him credit.

14,329. But can you name the case of any man who was engaged for the whaling by another agent and who received credit from you?-I could not name a case. It is done just in the ordinary way of trade, and we would not pay any attention to a case like that. We could not be expected to recollect where every customer was going.

14,330. Is it not the case that every man who engages with you does take so much of his outfit as he requires from Mr. Leask's shop?-I think that is very generally the case; but he does it because he chooses to do it, and because, I suppose, he thinks he will be as well served there as by going elsewhere. With regard to the report, again, I say that the greater proportion of the men are settled with in a reasonable time.

14,331. Do you mean within six months?-The greater proportion of them are settled with in one month.

14,332. That is the case now?-Yes.

14,333. But formerly the time was considerably greater, was it not?-I don't think there was much difference. The men came then when it suited them, and they do the same now, except when they are all landed in Lerwick at one time, and choose to stay few days in town to get the settlement carried through. They are not bound to a day now more than they were then; but the releases and official papers in the Custom House can prove the proportion of men discharged within the month.

14,334. Mr. Robertson showed me some accounts with Greenland whaling men in which there was a charge for insurance upon outfits: is that an arrangement made by you with the men?-Yes.

14,335. Have you explained to them the nature of the charge, and why it was made before entering it in your books against them?- Yes; we have been doing that for the last fifteen years at least. If the vessel is lost, then the men don't pay for the outfit; it is paid by the insurance.

14,336. Mr. Leask is also an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, and there is a charge of 3s. made at the beginning of each man's account for a payment to that Fund?-Yes.

14,337. Does that 3s. cover the loss of clothing?-They get that in addition. When the vessel is lost, the man gets an allowance for clothing, and also the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund. He gets the allowance for clothing in this way: that he pays nothing for the goods if the vessel is lost, and then he gets the allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in addition, and is sent home free if he is landed in any part of the kingdom.

14,338. Therefore that is a double insurance?-Yes.

14,339. If a man is lost, his widow, in return for the 3s., gets an annuity or some allowance?-Yes. The amount of it depends on the number of years he has subscribed, and the number of his family. It varies considerably; but she gets an allowance at first, and generally a small annual grant.

14,340. Is that 3s. paid in every case when the men are going to Greenland?-It is such a small payment, and they have experienced so much benefit from it, that they never object to it now.

14,341. I suppose that charge is entered in a man's account as a matter of course?-Yes.

14,342. You say that if a man who subscribes that 3s. loses his outfit, or his boat, or anything, that is covered by the insurance, and he is entitled to a certain payment, which is made by the agents?-Yes.

14,343. Is that payment always made in cash?-Always.

14,344. How long is it since it has been universally made in cash at your agency?-It has always been made in cash, so far as I had to do with it.

14,345. Do you remember of any sums of a few pounds in cash being paid from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-There are often payments of that kind.

14,346. Do you remember any case of it man being refused payment of his allowance in cash?-No.

14,347. Or being asked to take goods?-No, I don't recollect any such case.

14,348. Do you remember the case of a man named Williamson from Coningsburgh having a claim against Mr. Leask, as agent for the Society, in respect of a loss which he had sustained, and falling within the conditions of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I don't recollect anything about the case or about the man.

14,349. Do you remember any case where the amount due from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund was put to the credit of a person insured, in order to reduce the debt due by him to Mr. Leask?- No, I don't recollect any such case.

14,350. Can you say that that has never been done?-I cannot say that exactly. Perhaps if the man chose to put the money to his account it would be done.

14,351. But can you say it has never been done where the man did not choose to put the money to his account?-It has never been done where the man did not choose, so far as I know.

14,352. Do you know any case in which Mr. Leask has asked the man to do it, or has proposed to do it, and the man has resisted?- No.

14,353. Is an allowance of that kind sometimes put to the credit of a man who has an account in Mr. Leask's books, and taken out in goods in the course of the year?-It may be in some cases.

14,354. Is it not usually the case when a sum of that kind falls due that it is entered to the man's credit?-That is not usually the case, because nobody knows whether it will be paid or not, or whether the man will have a claim to receive money.

14,355. But when you know that it is due, and that it is to be paid, and the man happens to have an account, is the amount not just entered in that account and credited to the man?-It may be in some cases, but it is only when a man is wrecked that he is entitled to any allowance from the Society; we don't know when he is to be wrecked, and therefore he cannot get advances on the faith of a claim against the Society.

14,356. I am not speaking about advances on the faith of a claim; but when the money is due, is it not generally put into the man's account?-Not generally, but there may have been a case or two of that kind.

14,357. Is it generally handed over to him in cash?-Generally.

[Page 359]

14,358. Even when a man has an account, and when the balance of that account is against him?-The man perhaps will not require it to be handed over to him if he had an account and wished the amount of his debt to be reduced by putting that to it. In that case there would be very little occasion for a transfer of the cash, but I can scarcely recollect any cases of that kind.

14,359. I am not asking whether the man wishes it or not, I am asking whether it is ever done, or whether it is generally done?-I should say it is not generally done. I would say it is almost never done.

14,360. How many of these payments have you to make in the course of a year?-In some years there are very few.

14,361. Will there sometimes be a dozen?-Perhaps there may, but I could not say, without the books.

14,362. And you say that out of the dozen payments which you make, one half of them will pass through the men's accounts?- No, I should not say that.

14,363. Should you say that three out of every dozen did so?-No, I should not even say that.

14,364. Should you say that one in every dozen passed through the men's accounts?-I might say one, but I could not be sure. It might be less, or it might be none at all.

14,365. Might it not be more?-It is not a regular business transaction at all, and it is very seldom that such a thing ever enters the accounts. It is a present payment for an accident happening to a man, and he just gets the money, and there is no more about it; but it might happen occasionally that he applied it towards payment of a debt.

14,366. The premium or subscription of 3s. universally passes into the man's account?-Yes.

14,367. I cannot quite see why the payment of a policy should not also go into the man's account if he has one?-It is only when a man is wrecked that such it payment is to be made. There are many men who have been paying for twenty or thirty years, and have never had occasion to claim against the Society, while there are others who have.

14,368. But if a man happens to have an account running with Mr. Leask, do you say that the payment is made to him in cash rather than put in to the account?-No, I don't say that, because the man might make no difficulty in applying it to his account, if he had one; but we are applying for men from different parts of the country who have no account with us, and in these cases the money is paid over at once.

14,369. In the majority of cases in which the money is paid through you when it is due, is it not to the men who have paid their premium through you?-By no means. We issue a great many tickets to men who are not in our employment at all,-men going south, and fishermen on the islands. I think we are generally called upon to make applications in cases of loss in preference to the other agents, and that money is paid over to the men at once.

14,370. Then do you say it is the case that the money is entered in the man's account whenever he has an account with you?-If the man to whom the money was to be paid had an account, it might probably be put to that account; but of course it would only be done with the man's concurrence.

14,371. Did you ever know any man object to that being done?-I cannot say that I ever did.

14,372. Are you sure that you never did?-Yes, I am sure.

14,373. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to correct the statement made in the report, that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. I say that is not the fact.

14,374. Is it not the fact that that is the interest of the agent?-It may be the interest of the agent, but it is never done.

14,375. The report only says that it is the interest of the agent: it does not state that he does it?-I think it does. It says that the man is indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount, and that it is the interest of the agent to delay settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. What I object to in that statement is the impression conveyed by it, that all the men are in debt to an equal or greater extent than their earnings. I think that is the way in which the statement would naturally be read; but, as a rule, the men do not run accounts after they come home until they settle, and then they will only buy what they require. They are never importuned to buy or to take goods, nor is the settlement delayed for that purpose.

14,376. You say the men are never importuned to buy anything. Are they not asked at settlement if they want anything?-No. Their money is paid them as soon as they call for it, without any demur.

14,377. I know it is; but are they not asked at that time if they want to take any goods?-After they have got their money we may ask them if they want anything; and if they are as well served by us as elsewhere, sometimes they do buy some goods.

14,378. I suppose in a number of cases the men are quite ready to take what they want from your shop, and to pay for it with the cash they have got?-Yes.*

*Mr Jamieson afterwards put in the following Return in supplement of his evidence:- RETURN relative to the Discharge of Greenland Seamen from Vessels for which Mr. JOSEPH LEASK was Agent. Year 1871.

Ship's Name and Voyage No. of men Date of Place of En-gaged Landing Landing

a Camperdown, sealing voyage 33 Apr. 30 Lerwick b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 Apr. 17 Lerwick c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 Apr. 17 Lerwick d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 Apr. 21 Scalloway e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 31 Apr. 17 Lerwick f Victor, sealing voyage 30 June 1 Lerwick g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 19 July 21 near Scalloway h Total 206 62 52 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 20 Oct. 26 Lerwick j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 Oct. 26 Lerwick k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 14 Oct. 29 Scalloway l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 26 Nov. 11 Lerwick Longhope m Total 79

Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in Apr. May June July a Camperdown, sealing voyage 25 b Polynia, sealing voyage 12 11 c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 15 3 d Narwhal, sealing voyage 13 9 e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 22 4 f Victor, sealing voyage 19 5 g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 4 h Total 62 52 19 9 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 14 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage m Total 79

Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in

Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec a Camperdown, sealing voyage 3 1 1 2 b Polynia, sealing voyage 3 6 2 c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 10 2 d Narwhal, sealing voyage 2 2 3 e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 2 1 f Victor, sealing voyage 19 4 1 g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 10 1 1 h Total 33 4 7 13 5 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 8 10 2 j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 13 1 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 21 5 m Total 8 63 8

Ship's Name and Voyage Not Dis- Totals Remarks. charged at Year's End

a Camperdown, sealing voyage 1 33 157 men returned in April, of whom b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 95 were landed in one day. 114 were c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 discharged by the end of May. d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 I requested the rest to return for e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 31 discharge not later than August, when f Victor, sealing voyage 30 the ling fishing terminated. g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 19 h Total 2* 206 * The only cases I ever had. i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 20 j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 71 out of 79 landed in October and k Narwhal, Davis Straits November were discharged in a month. whaling voyage 14 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 26 m Total 79



Lerwick, January 29, 1872, WILLIAM BRUCE TULLOCH, examined.

14,379. You are a merchant and shipping agent in Lerwick?-I am.

14,380. You have been engaged as an agent for Greenland [Page 360]whaling vessels for some time?-Yes, on my own account, or as a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., for five years.

14,381. Before that, you were in the employment of Mr. Leask?- Yes.

14,382. I understand you desire to make some statement with regard to the evidence which has already been led upon this subject?-Yes. I heard a part of the evidence of Mr. Wm. Robertson; and some parts of what I heard I could not agree with. In the first place, with reference to the handing of lists of balances at the end of the year by one agent to another, he said that practice had been discontinued for a number of years. So far as I know, that is not the case.

14,383. Does that practice still exist?-I know nothing to the contrary.

14,384. To what do you refer?-To the balances that may be due by men to the agents.

14,385. Have you in your business had such lists handed to you, or have you handed them to other agents in the trade?-Yes.

14,386. Is that still done?-It has been done within the last five years. It was the only legitimate way of keeping before you the men who were in debt. When they went from one agent to another, that was the only way in which we could know where they were, or whether they were still continuing to go in the trade; but, of course, when any balance was recovered, it was always with the entire concurrence of the indebted person.

14,387. Do you mean that when any balance was paid by an agent on his behalf it was with his concurrence?-It was always understood to be with his entire concurrence.

14,388. I suppose the practice you refer to came to this, that an agent to whom a man was in debt was able to recover from the agent who engaged him for the subsequent year in the Greenland voyage the amount of his debt or a part of it?-Yes, that was the object of it.

14,389. And the agent so paying became the creditor of the seaman, and trusted to be repaid out of the man's earnings from the voyage which was begun?-We might have a list of perhaps half a dozen men from an agent, and it might happen that only one of these men had been out for that agent for that year. If the man had the means to pay and was willing to pay, then of course he left it with the agent to do so.

14,390. If he had not the means to pay, was it usual for the agent engaging him for that year to advance the money?-Never. I never knew of a case where a debt was paid in that way, unless when the man had money to receive at the end of the voyage.

14,391. Then, at the end of the voyage does the agent receiving that list retain the money?-He would retain the money, and give a note to the man, or send the money with the man.

14,392. Would he send the man down to your office?-The man would often come himself, and sometimes be the bearer of a note stating that he left that money with the agent.

14,393. Has that been done since the regulations of 1868 came into force?-The regulations were in 1867.

14,394. The copy I have is dated 1868?-1867 was the first year that the men had to be paid at the Shipping Office.

14,395. Was there a previous notice to that I have got, which is dated February 1868?-I am not quite sure; but if there was one, I think it must have been something similar.

14,396. The change of procedure may have taken place without a notice; but you say that there was a change made in 1867?-Yes. That was the first year when we were obliged to pay the whole at the Shipping Office.

14,397. Have the lists you refer to ever passed since that new system was introduced?-Yes.

14,398. Can you remember the last time when such a list was handed to you?-I have a case here in point. In a book of the 'Arctic,' which I now produce there is an entry in the account of Magnus Thomson, dated 29th April 1868, 'By value in account with Hay & Co., 10s. 3d.'

14,399. The man was credited in the account for a sealing voyage with 10s. 3d., paid by Hay & Co. to you, the balance having been against him in his account with you for a previous sealing voyage to the extent of 11s. 9d.?-Yes.

14,400. Was that done in consequence of your handing Hay & Co. a note showing that balance against the man?-Yes.

14,401. Can you say whether any such cases have occurred since 1868?-I don't recollect any other case.

14,402. Have you ever handed such lists to Mr. Joseph Leask, or any person in his establishment, or received them from his house?-I went along one day and mentioned the names of two men to one of Mr. Leask's men, but I had no list.

14,403. Who was the person to whom you mentioned the names?-Mr. John Jamieson, the brother of the young man who was examined just now. I told him the names of two men who were indebted to me, and asked him if he would be kind enough to mention it to them. A day or two afterwards one of these men went to settle with Mr. Leask at the Shipping Office, and was discharged, and shortly afterwards he came and paid me a sum to account. I may mention that I was aware they could not keep the amount off the man's account; but I mentioned the matter to Mr. Leask's people, because I knew they would have an opportunity of seeing the men when they came to be discharged, and I wished them to remind them of their debt.

14,404. I suppose it was expected that if any case should occur in which a debt was due to Mr. Leask, you would do the same good office for him?-Yes.

14,405. Have you done so for Mr. Leask?-I am not aware that I have.

14,406. Have the names of any persons been suggested by Mr. Leask's people to you, in order that you might, if they were engaged by you, remind them of their debt to him?-Not so far as I recollect at present.

14,407. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. Robertson?-When you referred to the case of a man not having settled for his second payment until the time when he engaged for another year's voyage, you asked him if, when he got that second payment and his first month's advance for the following voyage, he left much of that money with the agent. Mr. Robertson stated that in many cases he did; but in all my experience, which has now extended over thirty years, I seldom ever saw a man leave any part of his first month's advance and his second payment both at the same time with the agent. If he did, it was an exceptional case.

14,408. Did he usually transmit it to his family for their maintenance during his absence, or spend it at the time in supplies for them?-Yes; in the case of a married man, I think the most of it was sent home, to be a provision for his family during his absence.

14,409. Is it usual for the man, at the same time, to send home a certain amount of supplies for his family upon an account?-Very often that was the case.

14,410. Is it not the case now?-It is not done to the same extent now, in consequence of the recent Board of Trade regulations, because the men don't get nearly so many advances.

14,411. Is the agent not willing to trust them to the same extent now?-No; they do not get the same sort of supplies now which they did formerly, which was generally meal.

14,412. But does the agent still afford them supplies of another kind?-He gives them an outfit for the voyage.

14,413. Does he not generally go beyond that in the supplies which he gives to them?-Not to anything like the same extent as formerly.

14,414. In fact he restricts their credit?-Very much.

14,415. Would you say that the advances given in that way are now reduced by one half?-Fully. Another statement which Mr. Robertson made was, that [Page 361] their books don't show the cash paid when the men are discharged at the Shipping Office.

14,416. I understand from what Mr. Robertson stated, and I think I saw from the books themselves, that the books still show the amount due to the man after settling his account with Mr. Leask,- that is to say, that the system of book-keeping which was in use before 1867 is still continued in the shop?-Yes.

14,417. The cash is actually paid in presence of the superintendent, but no settlement takes place in the books until afterwards?-Yes.

14,418. Has your system been changed since 1867?-Our system has not been changed; only, so far as I know, the practice of paying the whole balance to a seaman was not put in force until 1871. We had then ceased to be agents.

14,419. Had you ceased to be agents in 1871?-Yes.

14,420. In what way was the system carried on until 1871?-Every man on being landed was furnished with an account of wages, according to the Board of Trade regulations; and our practice, when furnishing that to a man, was to read over his account from the ledger, and tell him what balance he had to get, according to our account; and he was paid accordingly at the Shipping Office. When he appeared at the Shipping Office, the shipping master, or any one acting for him, asked the man if he had got his account of wages from the agent. He said 'Yes.' 'Are you satisfied with your account?' 'Yes;' and then I paid the amount of the balance. The shipping master did not see that what I had paid was the exact sum entered in the account of wages.

14,421. Then, in point of fact, what you paid was the sum actually due to the man in his private account with you?-Yes; that is to say, we squared accounts at the Shipping Office.

14,422. Was the shipping master aware that the cash actually passing was not the sum stated in the account of wages?-I am not aware of that. It was only last year that I understand the real sum paid was entered in the release which a man subscribed, and of course the shipping master had then to be satisfied that the actual sum was paid.

14,423 Was there a change in the form of the release then?-Yes, to that extent.

14,424. I understand the release is signed by the seamen, and the sum paid to each man is entered in the column opposite his name?-Yes.

14,425. That column either did not exist or was not filled up previous to 1871?-Yes. There was no column of that kind then.

14,426. Was that the reason why, in 1871, the superintendent began to look into the matter more closely, and to require that he should be satisfied that the actual sum named in the regulation account of wages was handed to the seamen?-Yes.

14,427. Under the present system, the superintendent has to give a certificate to that effect upon the release?-I suppose so.

14,428. Mr. Robertson stated that, in his experience, no allotment notes were ever taken in the names of the agents?-Yes; and that is another thing with regard to which I differ from him. That has been done in my own experience. Several young men, who had no wives to receive their allotment notes, asked at the Shipping Office if they could be made payable in my own name and the shipping master said it was quite legitimate. I think that occurred first in 1867.

14,429. Have you had such allotment notes in your own name since?-They were signed in that way unasked by me. I never knew about it until the men stated it in my presence.

14,430. The object of signing the allotment notes in that way was to enable you to draw their wages, or rather to retain their wages in security for your advances to them?-It had that effect.

14,431. In what year did you cease to act for Mr. Leask?-I left him in the end of 1865.

14,432. Had any allotment notes been taken before then in the agent's name?-Not to my knowledge.

14,433. While you in his employment, was it the practice to give the sailors no allotment notes at all?-Yes. I am not aware, from my own experience, that allotment notes were granted previous to 1867.

14,434. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. Robertson's evidence?-Not having heard the whole of his evidence, I cannot say; but these are the only points on which I differ from him, so far as I heard what he stated.

14,435. You have handed me a memorandum with regard to the voyage of the s.s. 'Narwhal' of Dundee, in the seal and whale fishing of 1866, showing the earnings of the Shetland portion of the crew, the amount in cash paid to each man, and the time of settlement?-Yes.

14,436. Was that memorandum made for the owners?-No. I have made it up from my books for the purposes of this examination.

14,437. That statement shows that thirty-one men were engaged through you for that vessel in that year, that their earnings amounted to 411, 15. 8d., and the amount paid in cash to 321, 19s. 10d. You also state the average earnings to be 13, 5s. 8d.; the average cash 10, 7s. 9d., and the average goods 2, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.

14,438. You also state that seven of the men were discharged on the same day when they left the vessel and that the others were discharged afterwards at different times, varying from seven days up till two, two and a half, seven and a half, and eight and a half months after they left the vessel?-Yes.

14,439. Was the average amount of cash received by the men of the 'Narwhal,' on that voyage, below or above, the average received by men in other ships, in your experience?-I have not looked particularly at the other books. That was not a very successful voyage, otherwise the goods might have been a little more, and the cash would have been more as well.

14,440. You have also produced a similar memorandum with regard to the s.s. 'Arctic,' in 1867, after the new regulations were introduced, which shows that the proportion in goods and money had not altered very much?-Yes.

14,441. Do you think it has altered since 1867?-I don't think so.

14,442. I thought you said that since 1867 you had greatly limited your advances to the men?-I consider the amount advanced, even in 1867, to be limited.

14,443. The amount of goods advanced in 1866 was 2, 17s. 11d. out of 13, 5s. 8d. of average earnings in the case of the 'Narwhal,' and in 1867, in the case of the 'Arctic,' it was 2, 13s. 1d. out of 11, 15s. 3d. of average earnings: that was very nearly the same proportion?-Yes.

14,444. Can you say that the amount of cash paid now is much greater than it was as shown in this return?-No; of course much will depend upon the success of the voyage, but I don't think there would be a great difference in the proportion.

14,445. Then is this memorandum intended to show that as much cash was paid before 1867 as you pay now?-I just took these two ships for the two respective years. I had no such object in view as you suggest.

14,446. Do you think that, in point of fact, as much cash was paid before 1867 as is paid now?-As I said before, it depends very much on the success of the voyage.

14,447. But you have had a great deal of experience, and, taking an average successful voyage, would the payment of cash be as great before 1867 as it has been since?-The regulations of the Board of Trade won't interfere with that to any great extent, but the agents have not been engaging so many young hands since.

14,448. Is it your experience, as well as Mr. Robertson's, that green hands are not employed now to the same extent as they were formerly?-Yes; that must be the experience of every one.

14,449. What is the total cost of a green hand's outfit?-About 7.

14,450. The average amount spent on outfit by a man who has been at the whaling before must, I suppose, be [Page 362] considerably less?-A man who has been there for many years before may be keeping up his outfit.

14,451. May he require to spend 3 or 4 when he goes out again?-He may not require to spend one half of that.

14,452. And besides that he obtains a higher wage?-Yes.

14,453. Are you in the habit of insuring your men's outfits?-Yes.

14,454. What is the rate of insurance?-I think it is from 5 to 6 guineas per cent. I may mention that the Greenland trade was always considered to be a great nursery for seamen. A great many of our naval reserve men now, the majority of whom could compare with similar class in any part of Great Britain, commenced their career in the Greenland trade; but now these stringent Board of Trade regulations have utterly prevented, or nearly so, agents from taking them.

14,455. Is that because it has lessened the agents' power over the men?-No, it is because the men can only engage for one voyage; while almost the whole of the ships go to the seal fishing first, and come home, and then go back to Davis Straits.

14,456. Do the men ever engage for both voyages at once?-They have done so for the last year or two but it is not legal.

14,457. But they did it formerly?-Yes.

14,458. And they have resumed the practice within the last year or two?-Within the last two or three years the young hands have come to know that they cannot be forced to go both voyages, but that if they choose to leave at the end of the first voyage they do so. Of course an agent, when giving him an outfit for the sealing voyage, knew that nearly the same outfit would do for the whaling; but he cannot run the risk of giving that outfit upon one voyage merely, and therefore he cannot engage young hands.

14,459. I thought you said they had begun within the last year or two again to engage them for both voyages?-No. I say they have given it up within the last few years, because the young hands came to know that they could not be compelled to go both voyages if they chose to leave at the end of the sealing voyage.

14,460. Then that is another reason for ceasing to employ young hands?-That, in my opinion, is principal reason.

14,461. Are these young hands not anxious to get employment for both voyages?-If they have to rough it very severely in the first voyage perhaps they get cured of going, and wish to stay at home.

14,462. But the abstracts you have produced show that the amounts of goods in 1866 and 1867 were very much in the same proportion; so that that is not consistent with the general proposition you stated, that the agents have restricted their credits to the men very much since these regulations were enforced?-As I said before, I made up these two lists in this way, that one was for the last year when the agents could settle without going before the shipping master, and the other was for the following year when they were compelled to go.

14,463. The abstracts you have produced, if they are to be taken as representative cases, rather show that the system introduced in 1867 made no difference at all?-I merely took these two years as specimens of what was done before and after the new system was introduced. I can prepare statements for other years if you think it necessary.

14,464. Perhaps the explanation may be that the 'Narwhal' was the case in which the greatest amount of cash was paid before 1867, in your experience?-I did not fix upon the ships in that way. I merely took them for the reason I have stated. The first man's account in that list shows that of 28, 11s. 3d. which he had to receive, he got 27, 15s. in cash. What I meant to show by that was, that the agent had no control over the man's cash, but that when he asked it he got it.

14,465. How many ships had you in 1866?-Two; the 'Narwhal' and the 'Erik.'

14,466. Did the men in the 'Erik' receive as large a proportion of cash as those in the 'Narwhal'?-I could not say positively unless I had the book, but I think they could not have had so much.

14,467. Would they have a good deal less?-They would have considerably less, because the vessel returned clean. The voyage was utterly unsuccessful.

14,468. Then, taking your experience while in Mr. Leask's employment before 1866, should you say that the men sailing in the ships for which he was agent generally received as much cash as the men of the 'Narwhal' in 1866?-I think on an average they would; but of course that would be in pretty successful years.

14,469. I am not speaking about the actual amount of cash which they would receive, and whether it was larger or smaller, but would they receive the same proportion of cash and of goods as is shown by your memorandum?-Scarcely.

14,470. Would the proportion be considerably less?-I am hardly prepared to say.

14,471. Are you prepared to say that since 1867 the men in the ships under your charge have got the same proportions of cash as against goods as are stated in the memorandum with regard to the 'Arctic'?-Nearly. I shall furnish a statement for a year or two in order to show how the matter stood then.*

14,472. How many vessels had you in 1871?-I had none in 1871. In 1870 I had two-the 'Narwhal' and the 'Arctic.'

14,473. Have you a separate book for each year?-I have for each ship. I should wish to make a remark with regard to the report of the Accountant of the Board of Trade. Enough, perhaps too much, has already been said on that subject, but I think his report is couched in rather exaggerated terms, and, to a cursory reader, is calculated to convey a very erroneous impression. To a careful reader it is very different, I must acknowledge, but with a cursory reader it might have that effect.

14,474. Then you don't go so far as Mr. Robertson has gone, and say that the statements in it are utterly erroneous?-No, I cannot do that.

14,475. You merely object to the general impression which it conveys?-Yes; but I decidedly object to that. I would also say that in my experience, which is nearly as long as that of any one in the agency I never knew of an agent intentionally putting off time in settling with the men. When I was in Mr. Leask's employment, before the passing of the Merchant Shipping Act, when the men were landed and got what cash and goods they wanted, they would generally ask at what time they would be settled with, and we would tell them that in the course of a month, by which time we got the returns ready-that is, the [Page 363] ship's accounts for wages and oil-money-we would settle with them at any time. That was the universal practice.

14,476. Formerly you did not settle with the men until you had got funds put into your hands by the owners-No; and we generally got these in the course of four weeks.

14,477. Do you know of any case in which a settlement was refused on the ground that you had not received funds from the owners?-No; I do not recollect of any such case.

14,478. Is there any foundation for this statement in Mr. Hamilton's report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Has a man had any difficulty in getting employment because he had carried his custom away from a particular agent?- I don't think so. If there was such a case, I think it must have been only one.

14,479. Was there one case?-I say I think it could only be one case.

14,480. But do you know of any one case?-Having left Mr. Leask's business, I consider it treading on rather delicate ground to speak about that; and I would not like to be pressed. Of course I must always remember in giving my evidence that I am on oath, but I would not like to be considered as equivocating.

14,481. I think you are giving very candid evidence; but you ought to tell if there is any foundation for the statement that the men had been refused employment because they had carried their custom elsewhere?-I am only aware of one solitary case.

14,482. Was that because the man had gone away and got an outfit or supplies elsewhere?-I am not aware of a man being denied a berth because he had taken an outfit elsewhere. I think the report of the Accountant is incorrect in that respect, because I have known no case in which a man has been refused a berth because he had taken his outfit elsewhere.

14,483. What was the one case to which you referred just now?-I cannot condescend upon the particulars which led to it specially; but there was one case of man being engaged, or partly engaged. He had been with the same master for some years before, but some little difference arose, and the man was prevented from going the voyage, and did not go to it. I cannot say what was the particular cause for that.

14,484. What was the name of the man?-Thomas Manson, Bressay. That has been the only case of that kind, in my experience of the Greenland trade.

14,485. The practice in engaging seamen, I understand, is that the men go to the agents and intimate their desire to be employed for the voyage?-Yes.

14,486. The agent has not the power of making legal engagement with the men, but the engagement is finally made by the captain?-Yes.

14,487. Do you go on board the vessel with the men for the purpose of having them engaged, or is the engagement generally made by the captain on shore?-There have been a few cases of engaging men on board ship, but very few.

14,488. But it is done at a meeting between the captain, the agent, and the men?-Yes.

14,489. I suppose the agent, where there are a number of men, has some voice with regard to their selection?-Unquestionably.

14,490. Are you aware whether any effort has been made by agents, either yourself or others, to secure engagements for the men who had larger accounts or larger debts in your books?-Of course there have been a few cases where an engagement has been got for a man who was in debt.

14,491. Do you know of any case where the captain has objected, or complained of the efforts made by the agent to get such men engaged?-No, I don't recollect of any such case.

14,492. Did you know a Captain M'Lennan who came here for men?-Yes.

14,493. Did he make any objection of that kind on any occasion?-No.

14,494. Did he not complain of it being done?-Not to my knowledge. I never heard any such complaint, either from him or from the owner on his behalf.

14,495. Were you at one time agent for a vessel of which he was master?-Yes, in 1870. He had his men sent south to him in the previous year. We had him for two years.

14,496. Were you not in business at all in 1871?-Not as shipping agents.

14,497. Had you applied to have the agency for Captain M'Lennan's ship in 1871, before you gave up the business?- No; we had her from 1866 till 1871, when we gave her up voluntarily.

14,498. Was no complaint made at all that you had endeavoured to engage men who were in your debt or who were running accounts with you?-No.

14,499. In your business, who was in the habit of settling with the men at the Custom House? was it yourself or a clerk?-It was invariably myself. In fact it was the same individual who had to appear every time. The shipping master would not allow one person to come now, and another person to come then.

14,500. You have already stated that, so long as you were engaged in the trade, the amount of your account was deducted, and only the balance was handed over to the man in presence of the shipping master?-Yes.

14,501. So that, in point of fact, your account was settled in the Custom House just as it was before the Board of Trade regulations, with this exception, that there was no writing or reading over of the accounts at that place?-Yes. Before 1867 it was done in our own office. I may mention that in several cases, of which this [showing an account of wages] is a specimen, the men actually got what they had to get according to the Board of Trade regulations. In that case the sum which the man had to get was 5, 16s. 3d.

14,502. Did he get the whole amount because he had no account at all?-He had an account, but he got this sum in full because his wife had not drawn all his allotments.

14,503. Were the allotments deducted in that account?-Yes, that was invariably done.

14,504. Did you draw the allotments for your account?-We drew them regularly from the owners.

14,505. So that this man got his balance due upon the account of wages, because his allotments had been applied to the account due to you?-Yes. I may mention that his account was very trifling,- in fact was next to nothing; and in addition to that he had a balance to get, when he came down to the office, of 3 odds due upon his allotments.

14,506. Have you any vessels engaged in the Faroe trade?-No; we are in no way connected with that fishing.

14,507. Have you any share as owner in any of the vessels for which you have acted as agent?-No; and as we are entirely out of that trade just now, have no reason for making the statements I have done, except merely to give it correct account of the way in which the business has been conducted. The statement I have made is altogether an unprejudiced one.

14,508. But you think the 21/2 per cent. allowed to you was a very inadequate remuneration?-Since the recent Board of Trade regulations were issued, it was because we had often to throw our own business aside to attend to the men when they came to settle.

*Mr. Tulloch afterwards furnished the following statement:- Men on s.s. 'Arctic,' of Dundee, voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1867. Amount of wages and oil-money, 411 14 6 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-35 men, 318 14 6 Amount of goods sold, 93 0 0

Average earnings, 11 15 3 ,, cash, 9 2 1 ,, goods, 2 13 1

Men on s.s. 'Narwhal's' voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1869-M'Lennan, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc.,. 303 15 2 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-19 men, 255 11 6 Amount of goods sold, 48 3 8

Average earnings, 15 19 9 ,, cash, 13 9 0 ,, goods, 2 10 9

Men on s.s. 'Erik,' of London, voyage to seal fishing in 1869-Robert Jones, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc., 365 10 10 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-25 men, 326 4 4 Amount of goods sold, 39 6 6 Average earnings, 14 12 5 ,, cash, 13 1 0 ,, goods, 1 11 5

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GEORGE REID TAIT, examined.

14,509. You were for a number of years engaged as an agent in Lerwick for whaling vessels?-I was.

14,510. How many ships had you generally?-I have had as high as eighteen in one year.

[Page 364]

14,511. For these, I suppose, you would sometimes employ 100 or 200 men?-Fully that; perhaps about 250 men.

14,512. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Tulloch?-I have.

14,513. Are there any points on which you differ from him?-Yes. So far as my own experience is concerned, since the issuing of the Board of Trade regulations in 1867 we have invariably settled with our men at the Shipping Office without deducting our own account

14,514. Were these settlements conducted by yourself, or by one of your clerks?-Principally by one of my clerks; but at times, when he was absent, I generally settled with the men myself.

14,515. Was that clerk Mr. Leisk, who is now your successor in business?-Yes.

14,516. Is the statement correct that these settlements were generally protracted for months, and were only made at intervals as the men came up?-I don't think it is generally correct. When a vessel arrived at Lerwick, the men were generally settled with at once.

14,517. Even before 1867?-Even before 1867. I don't think there is any difference with regard to the dates of settlement.

14,518. Then what effect have the regulations had?-I don't think they have had very much effect, so far as my own experience goes.

14,519. Have they had the effect of reducing the amount of debit against the men in the agents' books?-I don't think so.

14,520. You have not found it necessary in consequence to restrict your advances to the men?-I have not. I just give them much about the same as formerly

14,521. Have you formed any idea from your experience as to what proportion of a man's earnings in an average voyage may be exhausted by his supplies in goods?-I have taken a note of it for the last three years. In some cases it has been as high as 20 per cent.; but where the vessels were successful, the proportion of goods was not by any means so great, compared with the amount of oil-money and wages. In that case it would sometimes be reduced to 5 per cent. In the case of the 'Arctic,' Dundee, last year, 995, 6s. 8d. was paid at the Shipping Office to 29 men, and they afterwards returned and paid me 48, 2s. 5d. for goods That was a very successful year, and the 'Arctic' was particularly fortunate. I may explain that out of the twenty-nine men there were only eight taken on the second voyage The vessel made two voyages, and that return is exclusive of the eight men who went with her the second time.

14,522. So that the advances were really made for the sealing voyage only?-Yes, really for the sealing voyage.

14,523. And I suppose it was from the sealing voyage that the greater part of the returns were made?-No. I think the eight men grossed pretty nearly as much from the second voyage.

14,524. But that was an extraordinary case altogether, was it not?-Our vessels were all fortunate last year, on the whole.

14,525. However, you say that in some cases the amount of goods has been as much as 20 per cent. of the whole earnings?-I think so; but these were exceptional cases.

14,526. After the new regulations were issued, did the men universally come down and settle their accounts as soon as they received their cash at the Custom House?-As a rule, they did.

14,527. Are they expected to do so?-A great number of the men who are customers of my own are always very honourable in settling their accounts.

14,528. But is it understood when you are paying them the money that they are to do so?-Yes.

14,529. Is there an understanding expressed at the time when they are getting the advance, that they are to settle as soon as they receive their wages?-We have never expressed it in words, but I should fancy that there is such an understanding.

14,530. Have your accounts since 1867 been kept in the same way as they were before?-In the same way.

14,531. That is to say, they show the receipt by the seaman of the balance due after deducting his account, and don't show the actual sum received by him at the Custom House?-We generally credit the men with the full amount of wages, oil-money, and seal-money payable to them; then there are the advances prior to the voyage; then there is the sum paid at the Shipping Office;-the full amount is entered against the men; and then the sum returned.

14,532. Do you make a separate entry of that so as to show what has been actually paid?-Yes.

14,533. Have you known any case of a man declining to come down from the Shipping Office to pay his account at the time?- There have been two or three very rare cases.

14,534. What happened when such cases occurred?-The men are still due the amount. That was all that happened.

14,535. Did you make any effort to get them an engagement in the following year?-No; I have never seen them since. I think two of them are south.

14,536. Have you seen any evidence on the part of the men in other cases of an unwillingness to come down?-No. I have never seen any evidence of that at all. We leave the men at the Custom House after we pay them, and they always turn up afterwards and pay us.

14,537. Do you ever accompany them down from the Shipping Office?-We never have to do such a thing. It may be a day or so before they come, but they always pay very honourably.

14,538. Do you generally tell them at the Custom House that they are to come down to the office?-No. I do not recollect ever once telling them that, or giving them the least hint on the subject. I trust to their honour, and they always come forward. I may remark, that masters of vessels coming home from the sealing are very anxious to proceed with all despatch to Dundee or Peterhead, and it is sometimes difficult to make the harbour here. It would be an exceedingly annoying thing to force shipmasters to spend some days perhaps in making Lerwick harbour; so that they are very anxious in passing Shetland, to land their crews at any of the islands; but in that case the expenses of the crew are invariably paid to Lerwick, and it may be a fortnight perhaps before we see the men. Generally speaking, however, they are in town in less than eight days.

14,539. Have you known any cases in which your account for goods furnished was entered in the captain's store-book?-I have known cases of that some years ago-perhaps about three years ago, I should fancy; but am not certain.

14,540. Was that done after the new system was introduced?- There was a special order of the Board of Trade issued afterwards, preventing us from doing so. It was done before that time.

14,541. Did that order prohibit such entries being made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, with the exception of the captain's own account.

14,542. Such entries were made, I presume, to entitle you to deduct the amount of your account at the settlement before the superintendent?-Yes.

14,543. Do you think the remuneration of 2 1/2 per cent. is sufficient for the trouble that an agent has in obtaining engagements for the men and settling with them?-That depends entirely upon the success of the vessel. Some vessels, such as the 'Arctic' in the voyage I have mentioned, pay well enough; but if the vessel is unfortunate, the remuneration is scarcely sufficient.

14,544. But, taking the vessels overhead, is it sufficient?-I don't think it is, considering the time and trouble that are necessary.

14,545. Might not the rate of remuneration be raised by agreement with the owners?-They have refused to increase it. There was an application to that effect made some years ago, and I think they refused to entertain it.

14,546. Then I fancy the agent's principal inducement to continue in the business is that he has an opportunity [Page 365] of supplying the men with goods?-I don't think there are many agents inclined to continue the business now.

14,547. You have given it up yourself?-Yes.

14,548. But your successors are to continue it?-Yes. I think for a year they are to continue it.

14,549. You are not one of the gentlemen who have come voluntarily forward for the purpose of contradicting the official report of Mr. Hamilton?-No; but, so far as my own experience is concerned, I think Mr. Hamilton's report was very much exaggerated. In fact it was not correct, because all our men invariably got paid in full at the Shipping Office, without any deductions, since 1867. From the report, it would appear that the agent deducted his own account, but that was never done by me.

14,550. But if you put your account into the captain's store-book, that was getting deduction of it?-There was a special clause in the ship's articles, entitling us to do that. During the last three years that has been prohibited, so far as the Shetland men's accounts were concerned, but not in the Peterhead ships' articles. I think the clause still holds good with regard to Peterhead crews.

14,551. In your business, were you in the practice of taking out the allotments of wages in your own name?-No, not the allotments.

14,552. Did you give any allotment notes at all?-Yes, since 1867.

14,553. Did you do so in all cases?-No. I have had allotment notes, in a few exceptional cases, made out in my own name, when the men desired that. They volunteered it at the Shipping Office in a few cases; but the great bulk of them were made out in their wives' names and, where they were young men, in the name of their mothers.

14,554. Were there many cases in which no allotment notes were taken at all?-Yes. I think last year we had one crew who had no allotment notes at all; and before 1867 I think no allotment notes were given.

14,555. Since 1867, has it been a common thing for men not to take allotment notes at all?-It is common thing for the men to take them if the voyage is long; but if it is short, the captain does not give allotment notes, because the voyage would be ended before the first note was due.

14,556. Have you known any case in which agents have endeavoured to secure engagements for men who were due them money, or who were running accounts with them, in preference to other men who were not in that position?-I never knew any such case, although I have heard it often talked about.

14,557. Have you heard the captains complaining that the agents wanted them to take men who were indebted to them, rather than the best men who were not in debt?-I have heard Captain M'Lennan say so. I was not his agent at all, but I heard him make such a complaint in our place last year. I did not know anything as to the truth of it.

14,558. Were you acquainted with the system of exchanging lists which Mr. Tulloch spoke of?-Yes; but I have seen none from anybody for the last five or six years, nor have I handed any within that time.

14,559. What was the purpose of these lists?-It was simply for the purpose, if possible, of procuring payment of the balance due, or of ascertaining where the man was employed. The list gave us a sort of idea where he had been in the previous season.

14,560. Was it a list of all the men who were in your debt, and who had not engaged with you, that you handed to the other agents?-It was generally a list of about half a dozen men, whether they engaged or not. It depended upon whether they were customers.

14,561. But if a man engaged with you, it was quite unnecessary for you to hand his name in a list to any other agent?-Yes; it was quite unnecessary then.

14,562. Therefore the list must have contained the names of men who had not engaged with you?-Yes.

14,563. At what period were these lists made out?-About the spring, or some time during the season, prior to the vessels returning from the Arctic regions.

14,564. Have you ever handed lists of that kind to Mr. Leask or to any of his people?-Yes, when Mr. Tulloch was a clerk to him, but never since the regulations of the Board of Trade were issued.

14,565. Have you known any case of a man being paid his wages before the superintendent, and leaving to hand back a large proportion of them to the agent in settlement of his account?- Yes. If he was an honest man, he would come down and settle his account, whatever it was.

14,566. May it have happened in many cases that he had to hand back the whole or a considerable portion of his earnings in that way?-Yes; in the case of a young lad whose earnings were small, his account might amount to the whole.

14,567. Your books, I have no doubt, would show many cases of that kind?-Yes, many cases.

14,568. Did you cease to engage young hands to the same extent as formerly, in consequence of the regulations of the Board of Trade?-Yes. That is the sole reason why so few young hands are engaged now.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, sen. recalled.

14,569. Have you examined your books for January 1868?-Yes.

14,570. Did you find any entry there of a sale of meal to Thomas Hutchison, Skerries, or to his father?-No; there is no entry of a sale of meal in that month.

14,571. Did you find the price at which your meal was being sold in the following month?-Yes.

14,572. You have no entries to show the price during January?-I cannot find any.

14,573. At what price was it being sold in February 1868?-At 52s. That is the price I charged; but I find the price was rising that year, because in the following month again it was charged 1s. higher; and it is quite possible that I would sell a sack at 50s. in January.

14,574. Is it possible you may have sold a sack of meal without it being entered in your books at all?-Yes; we frequently do that. If the cash is paid down we don't make any entry of it.

14,575. The price of 52s. in February was the credit price?-Yes.

14,576. So that, if a man were buying it over the counter, he would probably get it 1s. cheaper, paying for it at the time?-Yes. We usually give it 1s. cheaper when paid for at the time, than when we give two or three months' credit.

14,577. Do you do an extensive business in meal?-Yes.

14,578. Is there much difference in the price of the meal sold in Shetland, according to the quality of it?-There is a considerable difference in the prices of flour.

14,579. But is the meal generally about the same quality?-Much about the same.

14,580. Is there a difference between south-country meal and Orkney meal and Shetland meal?-There is no Shetland meal sold. We never get any to buy; at least very little.

14,581. I have seen one or two entries of Shetland meal in country places: would it be sold much lower than south-country meal?- Yes, very much lower.

14,582. But it is not an ordinary article of commerce in the country?-No. There are very few who deal in it.

14,583. In comparing the books of different merchants selling meal throughout the country, would it, in your opinion, be fair to assume that a merchant in a country district was selling the same quality of meal that you sell in Lerwick?-Yes. I think they would be selling the same quality. There may be different qualities of meal, but I think they all keep the same qualities. For instance we keep three kinds of flour.

14,584. That is in flour, but in meal is it usual in Shetland to keep more than one quality?-I think not.

[Page 366]

14,585. You keep only one quality of meal?-Yes.

14,586. And you are inclined to believe that merchants in other parts of Shetland will generally be selling the same quality?-I think so. Of course it must be a little dearer in the country, but I have heard of prices being charged, at which I was a little surprised.

14,587. Did you at one time give a note of the prices of meal to a man, Henry Gilbertson?-I was inquiring at my clerk about that, and I found that he did it. Of course he would give the prices which he knew, and which he would find in my book. I may mention that the prices of meal differ very much in one year.

14,588. But probably not within one month, unless there is a sudden rise?-No; not unless there is a sudden rise or a sudden fall. I generally consider that we should charge as little for meal as we can, so that the poor people may get it at as low a price as possible; and we take a less profit on it than on other goods.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN LEISK, examined.

14,589. You are a partner of the firm of Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick?-I am.

14,590. I understand you were previously in the employment of Mr. George Reid Tait, who has now retired from business?-Yes; I had been in his employment since 1862.

14,591. Were you in any other business of the same kind before?-No; I entered business then for the first time.

14,592. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Tait?-Yes.

14,593. Do you agree generally with him in the account he has given of the way in which seamen have been discharged and had their wages paid?-Yes. I think it was generally correct.

14,594. Have you been in the habit of going up and paying wages at the Custom House?-I generally went with the men there.

14,595. Is it the custom now to hand them over their wages in cash, deducting only the sums which they have got for the month's advance, the allotment money, and the captain's account for stores?-During the last year, 1871, we only deducted the captain's stores and the first month's advance.

14,596. Were there no allotments?-The men had allotments but we did not deduct them. We were entitled to do so; but I found it simpler not to deduct them, and trust to the men refunding.

14,597. Then the allotments were not entered in the accounts of wages at all?-No.

14,598. Why did you not enter an allotment which the man had really drawn?-Our reason for not doing so was that in some cases they had not received the allotment in full, and they did not understand the accounts very well. In fact we found they understood them much better when they saw the full amount of their wages and were told the amount of advances. It was less trouble to us, and we got on better with the men by doing so.

14,599. Did you not include the allotment in the settlement with the men at the Custom House because it was involved in their accounting with you?-Yes; it became involved with that.

14,600. Had the allotment notes in 1871 been taken in name of the agent?-Very few of them. Perhaps in one or two cases they were, but not more.

14,601. Had they generally been left in his hands?-Yes, generally.

14,602. When not taken in his name, but left in his hands, in whose name were they made out?-Generally in name of their wives or some of their relations.

14,603. Had you found that the wives had come to get advances?-Yes, generally they had.

14,604. But not to the full extent of the allotment money?- Sometimes, and in other cases they did not. In Lerwick they always got supplies to the full extent, but in the country they did not.

14,605. In what way did they get supplies?-Chiefly in money.

14,606. But in the country they did not take money to the full extent of the allotment note?-Sometimes they did. In fact the allotments were generally paid in cash.

14,607. Was it usual for the wives only to take it as they wanted it, and not to draw the full amount of allotment money due at any one time?-They generally had it divided in four; and they came for it weekly, instead of monthly-the allotment note being payable monthly.

14,608. Was it in consequence of that practice of drawing upon the allotment money that you found it more convenient not to put it into the account of wages?-Yes.

14,609. If it had been drawn at monthly intervals the account would have been simpler?-It would.

14,610. And it might have been entered in the account of wages without any trouble?-Yes.

14,611. Why was it not paid over to the women monthly?-They generally wanted money before it was due. It is only due two months after the vessel has left; and they required money before that time and generally got it.

14,612. When the two months had expired, did you not settle accounts with them, so as to clear off all that was due?-In some cases we did. When they were drawing upon us regularly we did so, but we did not make a practice of doing so.

14,613. I suppose you were supplying them with goods at the time as they wanted them?-If they wanted goods we supplied them, but we never asked them to take them.

14,614. Neither did you ask them to take the full amount of their allotment money when it was due?-No.

14,615. Have you since 1862 been in the habit of settling the accounts with seamen engaged in the whaling trade?-Only since the new regulations in 1867.

14,616. Since then has it generally been you who have gone up to the Custom House for Mr. Tait?-Yes, almost invariably, except when I was away.

14,617. Since 1867 has the deduction for your account ever been made in settling at the Custom House-Never since 1868. There was an order issued by the Board of Trade in 1867, but it was not very complete, and there were fuller regulations issued in 1868.

14,618. But the system was altered in 1867?-Yes. There was nothing to prevent us from including supplies for the men in the captain's store-book previous to 1868; but the new regulations prevented that, and we never did it afterwards.

14,619. Then it was only in 1867 that any entries were made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, by us. There was a clause about that in the regulations of 1868 which was not in the regulations of 1867.

14,620. Have you ever read over to the men the account of their transactions with you before going up to settle at the Custom House?-We generally read it over when they come to pay it.

14,621. Is it ever done before they go to the Custom House?-If they wish it, it is done but we never volunteer to do it.

14,622. Has there been any case since 1868 in which settlement of your account has been made or proposed at the Custom House?-I don't remember one. I know it was never allowed by the superintendent. He always counted the money, in every case since 1868.

14,623. Do you know how it was done in the case of other agents?-I don't know.

14,624. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Tulloch to the effect that up to 1870 he had only paid the cash balance due to the man after deduction of his account, and that the superintendent had not taken care to see that the whole amount was paid, except the legal [Page 367] deductions?-Yes. I understood that that had been allowed in Mr. Tulloch's case, but it was not allowed in ours.

14,625. Had you been expressly debarred from doing so by the superintendent?-Yes.

14,626. Was that done on any occasion when you were about to settle your own account there?-No. We never tried that; but he has repeatedly counted the money, perhaps not every man's, but that of two or three, to see that it was complete.

14,627. Has that been done since 1868?-Yes, always since 1868.

14,628. Do the men universally come down to your shop to settle their accounts after receiving the money?-Yes, I think invariably. I only remember one case in which a man failed to do so. Perhaps there has been one case more, but I don't think it.

14,629. Who was the man whose case you remember?-John Henderson, Yell.

14,630. Have you had occasion to remind the men that they ought to come down and pay their accounts?-No; we do not remind them of it, but we always explain the account of wages as we hand it to each man.

14,631. Is that explanation made in the Custom House?-No; we explain it previously. The man is supposed to be satisfied with it before he goes to the Custom House.

14,632. When making that explanation, do you also tell them that they are bound to come and pay their account for furnishings to you?-We do not tell them so. We tell them that our account is not included in the account of wages, and has to be paid simply when they get their money.

14,633. And the men have always come down without being told, and have paid their accounts at your shop?-Yes. They generally leave the Shipping Office one by one as they are paid, and come down to the shop, sometimes straight, and sometimes they do not appear for a long time afterwards. We never look after them, but just trust to their coming.

14,634. I suppose the amount of your account for outfit and furnishings sometimes exceeds the amount of wages and oil-money due; at least in the case of young hands?-In the case of young hands only; and as rule, in their case it does so. It is a very exceptional thing in the case of older hands. The young hands have less clothes to start with, and they require larger outfit, and their wages are smaller.

14,635. Do young hands invariably come back to you in the second year to get an engagement?-Not invariably.

14,636. What do they do in that case?-I don't know what becomes of them. Perhaps they go to some other fishing, or engage with some other agent.

14,637. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining his outfit from another shop than that of the agent by whom he has been engaged?-I don't know of any.

14,638. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining what he wanted for his second or third voyage from another shop than that of the agent who engaged him?-No, I have not been aware of it. If he had money to get at the end of the voyage, he possibly bought what he wanted elsewhere. I don't know of such a case, but it may have happened.

14,639. Was there a correspondence between Mr. Tait and the superintendent hereabout the system of paying seamen at the Custom House within the last three or four years?-There was some correspondence between them in the beginning of 1871.

14,640. Was that after the publication of Mr. Hamilton's report?- Yes.

14,641. How did that correspondence originate?-I think it originated from some document that came down for explanation from the Board of Trade through the shipowners in Dundee. Mr. Tait sent it up to the Shipping Office here, and asked what was complained of in discharging the seamen.

14,642. Did he get an answer?-The correspondence was carried on between Mr. Tait and Mr. Gatherer. I was not concerned in it.

14,643. Had you any interviews with Mr. Gatherer on the subject?-Yes, one. I carried up the document to him which had come from the Board of Trade and conveyed a message to him from Mr. Tait asking what was complained of, as we did not know of anything wrong. He refused to give me an explanation, saying at first that he knew nothing about it. I insisted that there must have been some complaint from him or from this quarter, but he still refused to give me any explanation of it, and I got none.

14,644. Did the correspondence follow upon that interview which you had with him?-Yes.

14,645. Was any explanation obtained in the correspondence?-I am not conversant with the correspondence, and I cannot answer that question.

14,646. Are you engaged in any other branch of the fishing business except the agency for the whaling vessels?-No. With regard to the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society, I heard Mr. Jamieson's evidence upon that point, and I would like to add, that a man who is wrecked has the option of applying through any agent that he may choose, and is not bound in any way to apply through the man who has sold him his ticket.

14,647. What is the practice in cases of that sort?-The men generally apply through the agent nearest to them.

14,648. Have you known any cases in which men or widows have applied through others than the agent who sold them the ticket, in order that they might obtain money instead of being paid in goods?-I did not know that that was their reason, but it might have been.

14,649. In such cases as those to which I have referred, have they generally asked for money?-They have generally got the money, so far as I know.

14,650. But you are not acquainted with any case in which that has been assigned as the reason for applying to a different agent?- No; I never heard it. They would likely apply to the agent they were best acquainted with, or who lived nearest to them. There are five agents in Lerwick, one of whom is the fishery officer, who is not connected with trade in any way, so far as I am aware.

14,651. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to the time for settling with the men, we generally, as soon as we can get their accounts ready, fix a day for them to appear at the Shipping Office, and we settle then with as many as make their appearance.

14,652. You do not settle with the men on landing?-When the men land, we fix a day for settling with them, and as many men as appear on that day get their wages then, and the rest get them when they call.

14,653. But if you see the men when they land, in order to fix the day with them, why is it that you cannot [be] there and then settle with them?-Because we cannot get the accounts ready. We require some time to make up the accounts of wages, and then they have to get discharges, which take them fully as much time as the accounts. There is a great deal of writing to be done in that; they are all made out in duplicate.

14,654. Do you mean that your own shop accounts have to be made up?-No, our own shop accounts have all been made up long before; it is only the accounts of wages that have to be made up at that time.

14,655. Have they to be made out in duplicate?-No; only the discharges.

14,656. Are not the whole crew discharged in one document?- That is the release; but each man besides has to get a separate discharge, and a certificate of character and ability and conduct.

14,657. Do you ever settle accounts of wages with the men before your own shop accounts are made out and balanced?-Never. We always make out our shop accounts shortly after the vessel sails.

14,658. But you may be giving supplies to the families all the time when the vessel is away?-Yes; but it is very easy to add that. It is always posted up, and can be added to the account at any time. I now produce the store-book of the 'Tay' in order to show you [Page 368] the form in which we understand it has to be kept in order to comply with the regulations.

14,659. Is that book kept by the captain?-Yes, We generally furnish a book for the purpose. The captains are not very careful about that, and we have had a great deal of annoyance with the Shipping Office in consequence.

14,660. Is there a separate store-book, kept in these steamers for the Shetland men?-Yes. The entries are filled in by the captain, and signed by him and each man; but sometimes they are not very particular in getting them signed, and objections have been made to receiving them at the Shipping Office in consequence.

14,661. Who is G.R.?-That is the signature of one of the clerks in the Shipping Office. That book will show the dates on which the men have been paid. The vessel arrived on Sunday 14th May, and we fixed the 17th as the day of settlement, when a few men made their appearance. There are three days allowed by the Merchant Shipping Act for settlement.

14,662. Do you think that is too short a period to enable you to make out all these accounts?-Three days are plenty of time. That settlement was made within the three days. The vessel arrived on the Sunday, which of course does not count, and we had Monday and Tuesday for making out the accounts. The Monday was a mail day, and we put them off until Tuesday. We employed ourselves making them out on that day, and appointed the men to meet us at the Shipping Office, at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning, and you will see how many men made their appearance out of a crew of fifty men.

14,663. How many of them did so?-I have not counted them over, but the dates are all there when the men were settled with, with the exception of one man, John Robertson, Yell, who has not made his appearance yet. Mr. Tait sent him a verbal message, requesting him to come down and get his wages, but he has not attended to it.

14,664. I see that one of these men was settled with on 15th May, being the day after the vessel arrived?-That has been an exceptional case. The man had probably been anxious to get away, but I don't remember.

14,665. I also see that a number of them did come forward on the 17th, or within a few days after it?-Yes. They came just when it suited them. I think there were only about a dozen who came on the 17th out of the fifty.

14,666. How soon were they all cleared off, except the one man who has not come yet?-I could not answer that question without referring to the book, but most of them would be within a month. There are always a few exceptional cases in every ship, of men who either do not require the money, or who have something which prevents them from coming.

14,667. Had you ever got a ship cleared off so rapidly before?- Frequently.

14,668. But not before 1871?-Yes; in 1870 and 1869 we got them settled with as rapidly. The settlements are never put off by the agents, but the men may stay away as long as they like of their own free will.

14,669. I suppose the agent seldom continues to furnish supplies after the men have returned from their whaling voyage?-They don't get any supplies afterwards, as a rule.

14,670. Is there anything more you wish to say?-There are some parts of Mr. Hamilton's report which I think I ought to notice.

14,671. Have you heard any part of the evidence of Mr. Robertson or Mr. Jamieson with regard to that report?-I heard a part of Mr. Jamieson's evidence this morning, but I did not hear Mr. Robertson's. Mr. Hamilton says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man.' That is incorrect, so far as my experience goes.

14,672. Have you known any case of a man who did carry his custom to another shop?-Yes, I have known several cases of that kind, but I could not name them. There have been men who had money in their possession at the time of engaging, who did not purchase their outfit from us.

14,673. Would there be one in 1870 of all the men engaged by you?-I could not say; but I have known some of the men who purchased their outfit from us for cash at the time of engaging and who had no accounts whatever.

14,674. Were any lists exchanged of these men?-Never, to my knowledge.

14,675. The only lists you know of were those which related to men in your debt who had not paid up this debt?-Yes, and that was only previous to 1867.

14,676. Have there been no such lists exchanged since then?-Not that I remember.

14,677. Have you verbally mentioned the names of such men to other agents, and made inquiries about them since 1867?-I don't remember any particular case.

14,678. May you have done so?-Yes.

14,679. And many such inquiries have been made at you?-It is possible. I don't remember of it being done, but I would not say that it had.

14,680. Does it happen in your experience that green hands have generally to hand back the whole of their earnings to the agent?- Green hands frequently do so, where their wages are low.

14,681. And they may perhaps remain still in the agent's debt?- Possibly in some cases they do, but it is the interest of the agent now to have as few green hands as possible.

14,682. Was that his interest before 1867?-Not so much as it is now. Mr. Hamilton also says that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the men in debt to him again. That is not the fact.

14,683. Do you mean that it is not the fact that it is his interest to do so?-It is not his interest; and it is not the fact that he does it, to my knowledge.

14,684. Is it not the interest of the agent to get man to take goods from him?-It is the interest of the agent to sell goods to a man, but not to get him into his debt.

14,685. But if a man takes goods from the agent, is he not in the agent's debt?-He does not leave it as debt. When a man gets his wages, it is the interest of the agent to sell as much goods to him as possible; but that is a cash transaction over the counter after the settlement

14,686. Are there many such cash transactions?-A good many-not so many at the time of settlement; but we see the men repeatedly after they have been paid.

14,687. Do they come back to you and spend part of the cash they have got?-Yes. I cannot tell whether it is the same cash or not, but they do spend cash. We see them almost daily.

14,688. When you have been settling in Mr. Tait's office with the men who had been at Greenland, was it usual, when they came down from the Custom House, to ask them if they wanted any goods?-Sometimes we did that, and sometimes not; but we never pressed them to take goods.

14,689. But it was not unusual to ask them?-We might ask them if they required anything, and sometimes they bought something from us after settlement.

14,690. In that case would it be added to their account at the time, or would there just be a handing back of the cash to you for the goods?-Just a handing back of the cash.

14,691. Such purchases are usually made after settlement?-They are always made after settlement, at least almost invariably; but occasionally I have seen men purchasing goods and laying them aside until they got their money, and then paying for them. In that case the goods were not entered into any book, but were just put up into a parcel and laid aside for them.

[Page 369]

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Dr. ROBERT COWIE, examined.

14,692. You are a medical practitioner in Lerwick?-I am.

14,693. Are you a native of Shetland?-Yes; a native of Lerwick.

14,694. Have you lived here almost all your life?-Yes; except when I was south for my education.

14,695. I presume you have had many opportunities of mixing with all orders of people here in the course of the practice of your profession, and also previously to some extent?-I have.

14,696. You are acquainted with the fact that a system of barter prevails very extensively in different parts of the islands?-Yes, almost universally.

14,697. And that both fish and hosiery are paid for, to a considerable extent, in that way?-Yes.

14,698. With regard to hosiery, has it come within your own knowledge that knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and for the community?-Yes, in drapery goods.

14,699. In what way has that been forced upon your attention?- Sometimes in the discharge of my professional duties, I have observed that there was an utter disproportion between the clothing and the food of these knitters. I am no judge as to the value or quality of the goods, but many of them are clothed in a very gaudy, showy manner, and in a way quite inconsistent with their position in life. I have reason to know at the same time that their food is utterly insufficient. I have known knitting girls, one might almost say, starving or very nearly, starving, when they were at the same time very well dressed or dressed in a very showy manner; and I would give an illustration of that. I remember one Sunday, between one and two o'clock in the afternoon, being called in to see a poor man, in Lerwick. He was very ill, and evidently dying. He asked me if I could prescribe anything that would relieve him, and I replied that I knew of no medicine that could really do him good,-that the only thing I could recommend was some sherry wine and beef tea. His reply was, if it came to that, it was utterly out of the question, for he had not the means of getting such luxuries. He told me that all the money they had in the house was a single shilling, and that they had lived for some days, as far as I remember, entirely upon tea and bread. A few minutes after having that conversation with him, I saw the poor man's daughter-who was his only daughter, so far as I am aware, and who lived with him-going to church, dressed like a fine lady. That struck me as being a very deplorable state of matters. Here were a family who were on the verge of starvation, and unable to get medical comforts for their dying parent, and yet the daughter, who was a knitter, was I might almost say magnificently dressed.

14,700. Is that the strongest and most striking instance of the kind that has come under your notice?-I think it is, in that form.

14,701. Have you seen other instances in which you were led to believe that the state of things was similar?-Yes, very similar. On many occasions knitters have consulted me as to their health, complaining of certain forms of dyspepsia. I inquired as to their food, and found it was very insufficient, while at the same time they were well dressed, at least apparently well dressed. But I would remark as to their dress, that I have reason to believe that the dress which the knitting girls in Lerwick and girls of the lower orders all over Shetland wear is not adapted to the climate. There is too much cotton in it; it is too thin, and it is insufficient to protect them from the inclemency of the weather. In former times in Shetland a great deal of the clothing worn by the females was home-made: it consisted of woollen garments, which were much better adapted to the climate.

14,702. Is it not the case that in the country districts the women still make the greater part of their own clothing?-I suppose they do; but what I intended to refer to just now was their inside clothing. I think there is too much cotton worn now, and not sufficient warm worsted clothing.

14,703. Then the worsted underclothing which the Shetland women make is entirely for the market, not for their own use?- I fear they sell it and buy cotton underclothing instead. I believe the disproportion, as I may term it, which exists between the food and the clothing of these knitters is chiefly, if not entirely, due to the system of truck by which they are paid.

14,704. Do you refer to the difficulty which they have in getting money for their work?-Yes; and to the fact that they get goods, chiefly drapery goods, for it.

14,705. Do you think that induces them to take larger quantity of dress than they really need?-I think so.

14,706. But at the same time you say that they do not have a sufficient amount of good underclothing?-Yes. I do not think they have a sufficient amount of good, warm, substantial underclothing for the climate in which they live.

14,707. Might they not get that if they required it in return for their work?-I suppose they might, but the fact is that they very seldom have it. They rather prefer to take showy outside clothing.

14,708. If women are reduced to distress for food, but yet have a considerable supply of handsome clothing, would you not suppose it natural that they should have recourse to the pawnbroker's shop in winter, or when they were in straits?-I would, but I am not quite sure if there is a pawnbroker's shop here. There is a sort of pawn in the town, but I don't think it is much resorted to. I have no doubt, if they were in a large city, they would resort to the pawnbroker's; but pawnbroking is practically unknown here. The people, some way or other, have not got into the way of it.

14,709. Have you known any cases in which women, in a state of distress for food, have sold their clothes to private individuals for it, or have endeavoured to do so?-I am aware that there are one or more old women employed, either regularly or occasionally, in going round the houses and hawking clothes which had been obtained by knitters for their goods. On one occasion I met in with one of these women. I was seeing a patient in the house of one of the lower orders, and the woman came in with some article of children's clothing to sell. I inquired how she had got it, and I was told that she was hawking it for some person who had got it for knitting goods.

14,710. Then she had not bought it, but was selling it as the agent of another person?-Yes. She was selling it, as I understood, as the agent of the knitter.

14,711. Have you had opportunities of obtaining any knowledge with regard to the amount of immorality which prevails in Lerwick?-I have heard, and I have reason to believe, that it prevails to a very considerable extent; but I have had no means of obtaining any accurate knowledge on the subject.

14,712. Are you aware whether the amount of professional prostitution is greater in Lerwick than in other places of the same size?-I am not very well acquainted with small towns similar to Lerwick; there are only one or two small towns that I know well. I am better acquainted with large cities, such as Edinburgh and Aberdeen; but I scarcely think that in Lerwick there is a greater amount of professionals prostitution, in proportion to the size of the place, than there would be in a seaport town of a similar size.

14,713. Would you say there was a larger amount of occasional prostitution?-I believe there is. I don't think I could prove it, but I have good reason to believe so.

14,714. Is that from knowledge which you have obtained in the discharge of your professional duties, or is it from general observation?-It is partly from hearsay, and partly from general observation.

14,715. Can you ascribe that in any degree to the system of barter which prevails?-I think it may to a large extent be accounted for by that system; because the knitters, I believe, are insufficiently supplied with food, and they are supplied with plenty of handsome clothing. They are thus led to walk about the streets good deal, and are in that way led into evil courses.

[Page 370]

14,716. Is that an opinion which you have entertained for some time?-Yes. I think it is to be expected in the ordinary course of events, that if women, have insufficient food and plenty of showy clothing, they will be more apt to go astray than others who have comfortable homes, and plenty of food and clothing in keeping with their position in life.

14,717. You are aware, I presume, that statistics show the amount of illegitimacy in Shetland to be less than it is in many parts of Scotland?-I am aware of that.

14,718. Is not that inconsistent to some extent, or apparently inconsistent, with the opinion you have expressed about the state of morals in Lerwick?-It is apparently inconsistent; but I am afraid that in Shetland we get credit for a higher state of morality than we are entitled to, in the country districts.

14,719. Do you mean that the system of registration here is not efficient?-I mean merely that the Registrar General's returns do not always show that illegitimacy corresponds with immorality.

14,720. Is that in consequence of the marriages being celebrated at such times as show the existence of what clergymen call antenuptial fornication?-It is partly in consequence of that, but not altogether.

14,721. Then is it possible to reconcile these statistics entirely with the prevalence of an excessive amount of immorality?-I have heard attempts to explain it, but I don't know if they were satisfactory. However, it is such a delicate matter that I would rather not enter further into it.

14,722. Have you no satisfactory explanation to give on the subject?-No.

14,723. Has it fallen within your observation, that the want of food has had any physical effect upon the women employed in knitting?-I remember being recently told by a respectable married woman, who was very well acquainted with the habits of knitting girls, that many of them enjoyed very good health, and felt pretty well and vigorous during the first two or three days of the week, but became languid towards the end of it; and she explained that circumstance in this way: These girls got an extra supply of food on the Saturday night, and they walked about a good deal during the Sunday, which, as it were, recruited them; but towards the end of the week their supplies got exhausted, and they did not enjoy much out-door exercise, and therefore became languid.

14,724. How do you account for their obtaining an extra supply of food on the Saturday night?-They were probably settling then. Many of them, I may explain, are not mere knitters, but are otherwise occupied. They are very ready, I believe, to take other work when they can get it, and many of them live not wholly by their own exertions, but partly on their parents and friends; therefore there would be extra supplies of food and groceries going into the house on the Saturday night, which they had enjoyed during the first days of the week.

14,725. Have you been aware of cases in which the way of dealing has led to the formation of imprudent habits on the part of the women?-I think they are very extravagant as regards dress.

14,726. Do they also expend a great deal of money on what may be called luxuries in food, rather than upon what is necessary, when they have money?-I think they do. The lower orders in Shetland use a very large amount of tea, much more than is good for them. It is very strong tea, and they take it very frequently during the day-I think to an unwholesome extent. I think it injures their health very considerably.

14,727. Is oatmeal still used to a great extent as an article of diet?-It is used in the country districts, but I think not so much in Lerwick. Here it is more loaf bread that is used.

14,728. In what form is oatmeal generally used in the houses of the poorer Shetlanders?-I think it is chiefly in cakes, what would be called scones in Scotland. I don't think it is so much in porridge, so far as I am aware.

14,729. Is that the bulk of the diet of a fisherman's family?-That, and fish and potatoes.

14,730. Don't you think that, taking the Shetlanders as a body, they are as well off with regard to diet and clothing as any similar class in Scotland?-I think the peasantry in the country are so, on the whole. The lower orders in Lerwick differ considerably from those in the country districts; there are more employments open to them. I think the people in the country are better fed, on the whole, than those in Lerwick. They enjoy more fresh air, and are a better-off class of people, on the whole, than the lower orders here.

14,731. Has any special matter come within your observation that you think of mentioning with regard to the system of barter in other trades than hosiery?-Nothing very special. I think the system of the men being compelled to fish to the landlords or tacksmen on certain estates is a bad system, and should be abolished. One of the many evils resulting from it is that very often men don't know whether they have money or are in debt. They may think they have means, and at settling time they may discover they have nothing.

14,732. Would that not happen all the same if the creditor were a merchant who had no connection with the land?-It might, it arises from the system of long credits.

14,733. Have you known cases in which a man was under a false impression as to the balance at his banker's, as one may say?-I have. The other day a man in the country sent for me to visit his wife professionally; and on leaving he told me he had not the means in the house, but that he had sufficient to pay me, and good deal more, at the merchant's. I afterwards saw the merchant with whom he dealt, and he told me something similar. He also told me to send the man's account to him, which I did; but a few weeks afterwards the merchant wrote me that he had been mistaken,- that he found, instead of the man having means in his hands, that he was in debt, and he had had to advance him his rent, and that I could not get my account paid in the meantime; but that he would do his best to get it for me at a future time.

14,734. Is it a common thing to have accounts paid in that way through the merchant?-Very common.

14,735. The merchant, in short, appears in many cases to transact the whole of a man's business affairs?-Yes; he appears to pay his rent very often, and to transact other business for him.

14,736. He pays accounts for him of all sorts?-Yes.

14,737. So that the man may know nothing at all of his money affairs?-He may know little or nothing.

14,738. Do you speak of that as being a general thing within your own knowledge?-Yes.

14,739. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system of dependence upon the merchant upon the character of the people generally?-Yes; they are deficient in that sturdy independence, if I may so express it, which characterizes the peasantry throughout the rest of Scotland. The system fosters a dependent, time-serving, deceitful disposition, and it cripples enterprise.

14,740. Don't you find at the same time that the people are generally very well able to take care of themselves in any ordinary transaction? They have intelligence sufficient?-Yes; they are sharp enough. The Shetland peasantry possess very considerable intelligence; but there is in them a want of proper independence.

14,741. Do you mean that the position in which they are develops a kind of cunning rather than acuteness or cleverness?-Yes; it fosters a sort of low cunning. The system having been continued, one might almost say, for centuries has fostered that element in their character.

14,742. That you represent as being the principal defect in the Shetland character?-It is one of the principal defects.

14,743. In other respects, do you not think they are a very superior class to the ordinary run of peasantry in Scotland?-They are careful and intelligent, and they are [Page 371] pretty well-bred. They have a good deal of the , more so than the most of peasants but there is that want of proper independence amongst them which I have mentioned, and they are of a very conservative disposition. I mean by that, that there is a want of desire to better themselves; for instance, to improve their houses, or to produce better crops, or to educate their families. There is a want of proper ambition among them; they are content to remain very much as they are.