13,840. Would you prefer to have your liberty?-Of course; but my days are done now. I have been bound to serve the estate since I was eleven years of age, and now I am sixty. I was two years at the beach when I was a boy; and I went to the ling fishing when I was thirteen.

13,841. Has there been any time since then when you could have sold your fish to anybody else than the landlord or his tacksman?-I could have sold some of them to small fish-curers or yaggers if I had pleased; but I did not attempt to do so, because I thought I was bound to fish for them.

13,842. Are there small fish-curers or yaggers who buy fish on the sly in the summer?-Yes.

13,843. But in the winter you can sell your fish to any person you please?-I don't think we can do that either. None of the tenants can sell their fish in winter unless they do it privately.

13,844. Do they all sell their winter and spring fish to Mr. Robertson at present?-Yes.

13,845. Have they always sold them to the proprietor or his tacksman?-Yes, except those who sell them privately.

13,846. Are there many yaggers about Lunna?-Not many.

13,847. Do they come round in the course of the season and attempt to buy fish from you?-There is one or two of them in Skerries. Mr. Adie is there.

13,848. But he is not a yagger?-No> John Hughson is also there. Thomas Hughson was there for a while.

13,849. Who does Hughson act for?-John Hughson has only one boat; but I believe he would buy fish from any one if he could get them.

13,850. Where does Hughson live?-John Hughson lives at Coppister, in the south-west part of Yell; and he has a man in Skerries who cures some fish for him. I think they are in partnership in some way.

13,851. What is the name of the man in Skerries?-I cannot say.

13,852. Have you seen men selling their fish to Hughson's factor in Skerries?-No.

13,853. But you know that he is ready to buy them-I hear that.

13,854. Do you think that a man selling his fish to these men, or to any other yagger, would lose his farm?-I don't know.

13,855. But you don't sell to these people yourself, for fear of losing your farm?-I wish to serve the man that I am bound to, and to sell all my fish to him, so far as I can.

13,856. Are you bound to fish for him by your own free will?-I believe it is the landlord who has bound me, but I cannot say.

13,857. Can the landlord bind you unless you agree yourself to be bound?-I am his tenant, and I must submit to his terms.

13,858. Could you not get another holding if you were not satisfied?-The holdings are very difficult to get, because a large part of Shetland has been laid out in sheep farms, and tenants have no opportunity of getting places.

13,859. Do you know John Johnston and Arthur Anderson, who were once in Lunna, and who went over to Burravoe some years ago?-Yes.

13,860. Do you know why they left?-I cannot say, unless it was because they were not satisfied in some way or other, and looked out for better places.

13,861. Did they not leave because they did not want to be bound to fish?-I cannot say.

13,862. Where do you get your supplies?-I purchase them in Lerwick, or wherever I can get them cheapest, except when I run out, and then I take them from the shop at Vidlin.

13,863. Do you buy much in Lerwick?-Sometimes I buy a good quantity; but when my stock runs out, I go to the merchant who is nearest to me for any small thing I want.

13,864. Then you don't get much of your supplies at Mr. Robertson's shop at Vidlin?-I can get any supplies there that I ask for, but I wish to go where I can purchase them cheapest.

13,865. Can you purchase them cheaper in Lerwick than at Vidlin?-Yes; but of course we must allow for freight.

13,866. But, allowing for freight, do you think you are cheaper, on the whole, by buying in Lerwick rather than in Vidlin?-Yes.

13,867. What kind of goods do you get at Vidlin?-Meal or tea, or anything I want.

13,868. Do you get most of them there?-No; I only get a part.

13,869. Does it depend upon whether you have a balance in your favour, or cash in your hands, that you go to Vidlin?-I sometimes go for credit and sometimes for cash.

13,870. Do you get your goods at the same price there, whether you get them on account or pay cash?-I believe I do.

13,871. Is that [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Robertson at Vidlin?-Yes. The account is kept with Mr. Robert Sutherland, the shopkeeper there. I also produce an old account for 1864.

13,872. Do you always keep a pass-book?-No; only at times. I got that account just after the settlement. I thought it rather too heavy, and I wished a copy of it; but I cannot say whether it is accurate or not.

13,873. Did you get a discount when you complained about the account being too high?-I don't remember; but I have sometimes got a small discount.

13,874. Is the settlement at Vidlin generally in December?-It is generally after Martinmas, sometimes sooner and sometimes later.

13,875. We need not go back so far as 1864. Have you ever got an account like that since?-No; I think that was the heaviest account I ever had.

13,876. You never disputed the rates you were charged since then?-No, I never disputed them.

13,877. Do you always get your account read over to you at settlement?-Yes; Mr. Robertson sometimes does it.

13,878. Do you settle with Mr. Robertson himself?-Yes.

13,879. Does he always read over your account?-Sometimes he reads it over, and at other times he allows me to get it read over by Mr. Sutherland.

13,880. Is there a separate account kept for any of your family?- No.

13,881. I see from your pass-book that in 1870 you got two advances of cash in April and June?-Yes.

13,882. Do you get cash advanced to you when you ask it?-Yes.

[Page 347]

13,883. Had you a balance to get at the settlement for 1870?-I think I had.

13,884. I see that on September 9th, 1870, you were charged quarter boll best oatmeal, 5s. 8d.; September 26th, quarter boll, 5s. 6d.; one peck, 1s. 4d. Were you buying meal in Lerwick at that time?-No; that was just about the time when I was getting in my crop.

13,885. Did you buy any meal in Lerwick last summer or autumn?-I bought some in April before I began to the fishing. I paid 2 to Mr. John Tait for sack of Orkney oatmeal.

13,886. The book you have produced also contains your fish account?-It contains a copy of it, which was made by my son on Thursday night, from an old pass-book which I used in settling with Mr. Robertson.

13,887. In 1870 you got 7s. 3d. for your ling: did all the fishermen in Lunnasting get the same?-Yes.

13,888.,Was that the current price for the year?-Yes, but I believe some got more.

13,889. Did you hear that the people about Sandwick had got 8s. 3d. for ling that year?-Yes.

13,890. Was that from Smith and Tulloch, the curers there?-I don't know the men's names, but I believe it was.

13,891. Do you think it would have been possible to pay you as high as that, and to allow the fish-curer a decent profit?-I could not know unless I had been dealing in the fish myself, but I don't think it would have been possible.

13,892. The current price this year was 8s. for ling, 6s. 6d. for tusk and cod, and 4s. for saith?-Yes.

13,893. Do you think there was a higher price paid anywhere else this year?-I cannot say.

13,894. If you had got the price that was paid in 1870 at Sandwick, would you have had a larger sum to receive for your fishing?- Yes; we would have received about 13 more for the crew on the summer and harvest fishing.

13,895. Do you fish much in harvest?-No; we sometimes fish two weeks after old Lammas Day.

13,896. Is that put into a separate account from the summer fishing?-Yes, but it is all paid at the same time, because it has been earned by the same crew.

13,897. Do you sometimes fish in small boats in winter?-I have done that on former occasions, but not now. I have dropped the winter fishing.

13,898. Did you sometimes take large quantities of fish in winter?-Sometimes the fishing then was not very good. In some years we might make a few pounds by it.

13,899. Did you always sell your winter fish to the tacksman at Vidlin?-Sometimes; but I cannot say that we did so always.

13,900. Did you consider yourself bound to sell them to him?-I believed I was bound.

13,901. But you were not so strict in doing it in winter as you were with regard to the summer fishing?-No.

13,902. What led you to think that you were bound to sell your winter fish to him as well as your summer fish?-I don't know. I only knew that the tacksman wished to have them; but we did not sell them all to him.

13,903. Are you at perfect liberty to go to Lerwick for your goods if you choose?-Yes.

13,904. Does Sutherland or any one else ask you at settlement if you want any goods?-No; they just give me whatever goods I ask.

13,905. But do they ask you if you want anything when you are settling?-At times they may, but not always.

13,906. Do you settle in the shop at Vidlin?-We settle in the office behind the shop.

13,907. Do you go past the counter into the office?-Yes.

13,908. After you have had your account read over to you, and the amount of your fish stated, are you ever asked whether you want any more goods?-No; not unless I please to take some.

13,909. But are you ever asked if you want them?-I cannot say that I am. If I buy anything myself, then they may ask me if I want anything more.

13,910. Do they not ask you unless you are buying something at any rate?-No.

13,911. Does not Mr. Sutherland sometimes ask you if you want goods before you go in to settle?-No.

13,912. If you take goods at that time, are they put into your account for the past year, or do they go into your account for the next year?-They are entered any way I choose. Perhaps they may be marked down to account, or I may pay for them in cash if it is any small thing. I don't wish to run a heavy account.

13,913. Do you pay in cash for the articles you get in Lerwick, or have you an account with Mr. Tait?-There are some merchants who know me who would give me credit for perhaps twelve months or so, but sometimes I pay cash down.

13,914. I suppose they know that you have got something in the bank?-It is not much. Mr. Robertson is my banker.

13,915. Then you sometimes leave your balance in his hands at the end of the year, and get interest on it?-Yes.

13,916. Why do you not deal more with him for your supplies when he is your banker?-I deal with him in Lerwick, but I deal as little as possible at Vidlin, unless when I run out.

13,917. Do you get goods from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-Yes, I get what I want.

13,918. Have you an account with him here as well as an account in the shop at Vidlin?-Yes.

13,919. Do you get any meal from him in Lerwick?-Yes, and tea and sugar.

13,920. Do you get them cheaper from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick than at Vidlin?-Yes.

13,921. On the opposite side of your Lerwick account is there entered any money or interest that is due to you?-Yes; Mr. Robertson enters that in his book.

13,922. Do you know whether John Hughson buys a large quantity of fish in the course of a year?-I cannot say.

13,923. Why do the men prefer to sell to him?-They do it of their own free will.

13,924. Do they get a larger price from him?-Perhaps they may, but they only sell to him privately.

13,925. Did any man ever tell you that he had got a larger price from Hughson?-I don't remember.

13,926. Would he be paying money at the time for the fish which were sold to him?-Perhaps he might, or in any trifle of goods which were needed at the time. There are some things which Mr. Robertson may be out of in Skerries, and we have to go to another merchant for them. For instance, if we wanted a refreshment of spirits, or anything like that, we have to go to Mr. Adie for it.

13,927. Does Hughson's man keep spirits too?-I don't know. Perhaps he may have a little for supplying his own men, but I don't know anything about that.

13,928. Has Mr. Adie got a licence?-Yes.

13,929. When fish are bought by Mr. Adie's man or by Hughson's man, are they paid for at the time, or is there an account kept of them?-I cannot say; perhaps the men may run a small account, and settle it up afterwards. I have had to go to Mr. Adie for many a thing, and I have run an account with him for them.

13,930. Do you not sell fish to him?-No.

13,931. You merely run an account with him for anything you want?-Yes.

13,932. Has Mr. Robertson not a shopkeeper at Skerries in the summer time as well as Mr. Adie?-He has a small supply of goods there, such as lines, and tea and sugar; but that is all. Sometimes I required something else and went to Mr. Adie for it, and sometimes I bought my stores at Lerwick.

[Page 348]

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE ROBERTSON, examined.

13,933. Are you a fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting?-I am.

13,934. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman, Mr. Robertson?- Yes.

13,935. How do you know that you are bound?-Because I understand we are bound by Mr. Bell to fish for him.

13,936. Who told you that?-When Mr. Bell came in to rule over us at first, the agreement was that the tenants were to give the offer of all their produce to him, and to no other man.

13,937. Did Mr. Bell tell you that?-Yes.

13,938. Was that about ten or twelve years ago?-It is longer ago than that.

13,939. Was it when Mr. Bell came to the estate first?-Yes.

13,940. Did he buy your fish at that time?-Yes.

13,941. Was there a meeting at which Mr. Bell told you that?- Yes; it took place in the house of Lunna.

13,942. How were you informed that Mr. Robertson became the tacksman?-We were informed that he was the tacksman, and we knew it.

13,943. Was there a meeting at that time too?-I was aware of none.

13,944. You only heard that Mr. Robertson became tacksman, and you don't remember who told you?-No.

13,945. Have you always fished for him since, and got the current price?-Yes.

13,946. Do you get your provisions at the shop at Vidlin?-Yes; and sometimes I get them from Mr. Robertson's shop in Lerwick, if I ask them there.

13,947. Do you keep an account at Lerwick also?-Yes, a small account.

13,948. Is it separate from the Vidlin account?-They are all brought together and settled for at the same time.

13,949. Do you get your goods cheaper when you come to Lerwick for them, than when you get them at Vidlin?-I cannot say, because I never had money to purchase them with.

13,950. You have always had to run an account?-Yes.

13,951. Had you a balance to get in cash at the end of last year?- No; I was in debt.

13,952. Have you been so for many years?-Yes.

13,953. Have you sometimes bought your goods at other shops?- Not often, because I did not have money to buy them with there.

13,954. When you did buy them at other shops, where did you get the money?-In the first part of the time I had a little; but I have not bought anything at other shops lately.

13,955. Do you not sometimes sell your winter fish for a little money in hand?-No.

13,956. Do you sometimes get an advance from Mr. Robertson?- Yes. If I ask for a little money I get it.

13,957. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. I have got an account of my last year's dealings here. [Produces it.]

13,958. Have you always had a pass-book?-No.

13,959. Is this the first one you had?-Yes.

13,960. You pay your rent to Mr. Robertson, and it is put into your account?-Yes.

13,961. You begin on December 12, 1870, with a balance against you of 22, 18s. 8d., and that was increased at December last to 39, 14s. 2d., including the rent?-Yes.

13,962. You were credited at settlement with a payment of cash in August of 2, and with the amount of your fishing, 18, 12s. 11d., reducing the balance to 19, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.

13,963. Where did the cash you paid in August come from?-It came from the sale of an ox.

13,964. Who did you sell it to?-I cannot exactly say, because it was my wife who sold it. I was at Skerries at the time.

13,965. Have you got any supplies since November from the Vidlin shop?-Yes.

13,966. Are the supplies of the men sometimes stopped when they get too deep in debt?-Yes.

13,967. Are they then put upon a certain allowance?-Yes.

13,968. Is that a common thing about Vidlin?-I cannot say for any one but myself. I have been put upon an allowance; but I cannot say how much it was, because it was my family who always got it.

13,969. I see that in your book on June 14, 21, and 28, there are entries on each of these dates of 24 lbs. oatmeal, and 3s. 81/2d. for flour; was that your allowance?-I believe so.

13,970. There are similar entries on July 5 and 12, and there is no other entry till 26th July, when you got double the quantity, but it is entered in a different form?-Yes.

13,971. Did you understand that you were on an allowance all last summer?-Yes.

13,972. Was that done with the view of reducing the amount of your debt?-Certainly.

13,973. And it is considerably reduced now?-Yes.

13,974. Do you think you will get it all wiped off?-I don't know. It depends on the fishing and the crop.

13,975. Are there many men are in the same position as yourself?-That is a secret to me. I don't know how the men's accounts stand with Mr. Robertson.

13,976. Why did you get so far into debt?-I and my family had a fever in the middle of summer about six years ago, and I got behind then. My earnings were all stopped by the fever.

13,977. Do you think that if you had ready money you would be able to purchase your supplies cheaper than you can get them at the Vidlin shop?-I don't know. Perhaps if I was trying, I might be able to purchase them a little better. There are freights and other things that must make them dearer at Vidlin than elsewhere.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SIMPSON, examined.

13,978. Are you a fisherman at Valour, in Lunnasting?-I am.

13,979. Are you a relation of Laurence Simpson, who has been already examined?-I am his brother.

13,980. Have you heard his evidence?-Yes, I heard good deal of it; but his case is different from mine, because he has had ready money with which to purchase things as he best could, and I have not had it. I have been obliged to take my goods from the people I was fishing to, because I did not have money with which to buy them at any other place.

13,981. Do you think he got his things rather cheaper than you in consequence of having ready money?-I think so.

13,982. Were you obliged to deal at the shop at Vidlin?-I was, because I was in debt.

13,983. Were you bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I was.

13,984. Do you think you could have got a better price for your fish if you had been free?-Perhaps we might; but we could not ask for it, because we were bound.

13,985. If you were free, would you attempt to cure your own fish, or to sell them to another curer?-I might.

13,986. Do you think you would make anything by curing your own fish?-I think I would.

13,987. Would you be able to give some idle time to it when you could not go to sea?-If we were curing our own fish, two or three boats would join together, and employ a man and a boy for the purpose, and then the men would have all their time to go to sea.

13,988. Would you have a factor of your own?-Yes, if we had our freedom.

[Page 349]

13,989. Have you often thought about that?-We would have thought about it if we had had our freedom; but we were bound, and we could not do it.

13,990. Have you got your pass-book?-I have had no pass-book for some time. There was one year when I had a pass-hook for some time, but it was not made up regularly, and it was given up. Then the whole account was put into the ledger, and Mr. Sutherland went over it with me at settlement; but the last year Mr. Sutherland was busy, and we did not get it done. This year, however, Mr. Robertson has given me a copy of the account for the two years' transactions. I only got it to-day before I came down here, but I cannot understand it very well. [Produces two passbooks.]

13,991. Did you get the copy of your account after you got the summons to come here?-No. The girl came with it just about the same time that the summons came. She had been over at the shop, and she brought the summons with her.

13,992. Did you ask Mr. Robertson at settlement for a copy of your account?-I asked Mr. Sutherland to read over my account, and when I went to hear him read it he said he would give me a copy, and he has put it down in a pass-book.

13,993. I see here an entry on 17th current, 'To paid freight on b. meal, 5d.' What does that mean?-It was a boll of meal I got from Lerwick, and very likely Mr. Sutherland has paid the freight for me.

13,994. Did you get that meal from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?- No, I got it from William Smith.

13,995. The balance against you in December 1869 was 30, 5s. 3d., and it was reduced at last settlement to 21, 17s. 111/2d.?- Yes, I have brought it down to that by my two years' earnings.

13,996. How did you happen to have such a large debt?-I had a fever in the same year that Laurence Robertson was ill, and I earned no more that year, although the fishing then was a good one. My illness brought me into debt that season, and I have never been able to clear it off.

13,997. I see in your account on 7th September last, 'By balance to kelp, per son Robert, 6s. 4d.' How does that go into your account?-The boy had some things out of the shop, and that has likely been to pay for them.

13,998. Had he an account of his own for kelp?-He had no account, because he is not old enough yet but he was working with his mother and sisters at the kelp, and he got some clothes.

13,999. Had his mother and sisters some out-takes from the shop while they were working at the kelp?-Yes.

14,000. And the 6s. 4d. would be what was due on the kelp above the amount of these out-takes?-It was what they allowed the boy for his share of the kelp.

14,001. Had your wife and your daughters accounts of their own separate from yours?-Yes.

14,002. Do the other members of your family always have accounts of their own, independent of your account?-They have had accounts for kelp, and perhaps for some other trifles besides.

14,003. Do they take in hosiery at the Vidlin shop?-Very little.

14,004. Do they take any of it from the members of your family?-I don't know if they have much to give them, but if they wanted a little at a time they might have taken some of it to them.

14,005. I see on September 22, 'By 74 lbs. wool at 111/2d.' What was that?-It was wool that I gave into the shop to help to pay off my account.

14,006. Was that all the wool off your sheep for the year?-It was not the whole of it. I had a little more than that. There had been some of it used for my own family. The sheep were kept in a park which Mr. Bell had taken in. We had it as a free pasture before, but he took the pasture from us, and rouped the park for 15, to keep 200 head of sheep. That was the reason why we were bound to give our produce to Mr. Robertson. I considered it right in me to give him the wool, in order to pay for the rent of the park; but previously we had that pasture at our own freedom.

14,007. Were you bound to sell the wool and the sheep in that pasture to Mr. Robertson?-Mr. Robertson was the cautioner to Mr. Bell for the rent of it, the same as he was for the rent of our toon.

14,008. Was he the tacksman?-Yes.

14,009. And Mr. Robertson let you the park?-No. Mr. Bell let us the park. It was his own property, but Mr. Robertson was cautioner for the rent.

14,010. Was the park at Lunna House?-No. It was a park about a mile to the south of Lunna. We were allowed by Mr. Bell to put 200 head into it, and we did so; but there came a dearth, and it could hardly bear that number.

14,011. Have you got the park still?-Yes, I and my brother and Mr. Anderson. There was another man interested in it at first, Hunter Sinclair, but he gave up his share, and now the three of us have it.

14,012. Have you one-third share of the sheep which are put upon it?-Yes.

14,013. And this was the wool which had been produced from these sheep?-Yes; and because Mr. Robertson had become bound for the rent of the park, we thought we ought to give him the wool in return.

14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.

14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking me for it, but I would not sell it to them.

14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would not consent to sell it to them at all.

14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d. wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right to it.

14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your wool?-I cannot say that he had.

14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid my debt he would not have asked it.

14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to another.

14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.

14,022. How do you sell your eggs?-We sell them mostly to Mr. Sutherland, and get small stores for them at the time, such as tea or sugar, or anything we want. They do not go into the account.

14,023. The eggs are never paid for in cash?-No; but I have no doubt we would get cash for them if we asked it.

14,024. But you always choose to take tea or sugar?-Yes, just the things we are needing.

14,025. Is that the way in which all the people in your neighbourhood do with their eggs?-I cannot say it is the way with the whole of them. Perhaps some of them may take them to other places for anything they want; but I believe most of the people dispose of them in that way to Mr. Sutherland.

14,026. Do you know Robert Murray at Swinister-Yes.

14,027. He is a merchant there, and keeps a shop?-Yes.

14,028. Does he sometimes buy fish?-He buys small fish, like what are called hand-line fish, or fish caught with lines near the shore; but I cannot say whether he has the summer time or not. He may have, for anything I know.

14,029. Does he sometimes engage people to fish for him in the winter or spring or summer?-I don't know.

14,030. Do you know whether he once engaged a [Page 350] man named Peter Williamson?-I heard so. I heard that Williamson was bargained to fish to Robert Murray, and that Mr Robertson would not allow him to do so. I never asked Mr Robertson about that.

14,031. Are you a relation of Mr Robertson?-I am his cousin.

14,032. Does Murray sometimes buy fish in the same way as the yaggers do?-He buys fish in his own shop; but I don't know that he goes to the Skerrries, or anywhere at a distance to buy fish.

14,033. Do the men sometimes go to him when they want a little ready money or supplies that cannot be got at Vidlin?-There are none of the fishermen at Lunnasting who go to him, so far as I am aware.

14,034. Is his place a long way from where you live?-Yes; it takes me a good day when I go there by sea, and it is a long way by land; but I never sold a tail of fish to him in my life.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, MARGARET JAMIESON, examined

14,035. Do you live in Quarff?-Yes.

14,036. Are you sometimes employed in knitting?-Yes, in knitting and dressing. I have also a little farm which I work, but I generally work at the knitting and dressing when I can get that kind of work to do. The farm is my brother's but he is very ill.

14,037. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it given out to you by the merchants?-I always knit with wool which I purchase for myself.

14,038. What kind of things do you knit?-Shawls, veils, haps, plaids, and other things.

14,039. Are you always paid for these in goods?-I sold a plaid to Mr Sinclair in the spring when I was unwell, and did not get it settled for until the summer. The price of the article was 18s., and I asked a halfpenny from him, and he refused to give it to me.

14,040. Did he not give you the halfpenny?-He gave it to me in the end, because I had to post a letter, and I got the halfpenny from him for that purpose.

14,041. Was the postage of that letter only a halfpenny?-No, but I had another halfpenny of my own, and I required the halfpenny from him to buy a stamp with. On Wednesday last I sold a plaid to him for 20s. and asked 2s. in cash at the end of the settlement, but they refused to give it to me. I then asked 1s. 6d., and they said if I got that they would mark it as 1s. 9d. against me.

14,042. Who said that?-It was one of the serving-men in Mr Sinclair's shop; I don't know his name. Then I asked 1s., and he said it would be 1s. 3d. against me; but I refused to take it on that footing. I then asked for 9d. which he consented to give me, saying he did not have it in the shop, but that he would borrow it from one of the clerks or serving-men.

14,043. Did he say he did not have 9d. in the shop?-Yes. I got 6d. and left 3d. due, which I could not get unless I took calico.

14,044. You did not put him to the trouble of borrowing the 9d.?- He borrowed 4d. from one of the persons there, and he found 2d. in the counter.

14,045. Do you think there was no money in the till at that time?- I do not know anything about it except what he told me. I consider from my own experience, and from what I hear from others, that we are very much like the Hebrews of Egypt,-very much burdened down with many things, and not able to bear our burdens.

14,046. When you took the shawl in the other day, which you sold for a pound, did you bargain that you were to get payment for it in goods?-There was no bargain made about it.

14,047. When you sold the shawl in the previous spring, was it marked down in an account, or did you get a line for it?-I got a line for it.

14,048. Did you send in your shawl?-No; I went in and sold it and asked a line, which I got.

14,049. Did you not want the goods at the time?-I got some goods and the balance in a line.

14,050. But you did not want to take the whole in goods?-No, I refused to do that. I did not want them until afterwards.

14,051. Does it often happen that you don't want goods when you sell your shawls, and that you would rather have money?-We would rather have money, because there are many things that we require it for. There are many taxes we have to pay, and there are many things we can only buy with money.

14,052. Would you take a lower price for your hosiery if you could get cash instead of goods?-I don't know, because goods will help us through a part of the year as well as if we got a little money. I consider our hosiery is worth what we sell it at, even although it was paid in cash.

14,053. Where do you get your wool?-I get it from any person who has wool, and who will exchange it for a little tea or hosiery, or a bit of calico or yellow cotton.

14,054. Do you spin it yourself?-Always. I am not able to get it spun for me, because that has to be paid for in money, and I cannot get the money.

14,055. Are you not able to pay for worsted?-No, because it has to be paid for in money; and I am not able to put the wool to the spinner, because that would require money too.

14,056. Do you sometimes have to pay money for wool?-If we can get a day's work or anything of that kind to do, we may get a little wool in exchange for it, but it is not very often we can get that.

14,057. Have the people who sell wool generally a fixed price for it?-Yes, according to the fineness or coarseness of it.

14,058. What do you pay for the finer wool?-It may be about 1s. 6d., according to the quality of it. I think the cheapest we can get is 1s.

14,059. But you get it by barter; do you give goods for it at the same price as you paid for them?-Generally we give a parcel of goods, and they will give us so much wool as they think it is worth. It is never priced at all; we merely give a small parcel of tea in exchange for so much.

14,060. Do you sometimes buy wool at the shops in Lerwick?- No, I cannot say that I ever bought any there.

14,061. Have you any sheep of your own?-Very few. We sometimes get wool from them, but not much.

14,062. Have you sold wool from them?-Never.

14,063. Can you not get as much wool off your own sheep as serves you for your own work?-No, we don't have so many of them as that.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.

14,064. Do you wish to say anything about the evidence which Margaret Jamieson has just given?-Yes. I wish to explain that those in the shop have no power to give money except by referring to my father. Then with regard to the want of money in the shop, it may have happened that my father had taken the money with him to the bank, as very often happens. Frequently when there is some small change in the drawer, it is given away upon lines or something of that kind. I suppose that is the explanation of what the witness has said.

14,065. But I suppose the practice is that you don't give money at all unless you can help it?-If the bargain is made for money, then we give money; but I don't see that we have any right to give money when the bargain is made for goods, any more than if the bargain had been made for goods we could compel them to take money for it. Sometimes my father is [Page 351] very unwilling to take hosiery, and would rather not buy it, either for goods or money. That is frequently the case when he is not requiring the article, or when the article is of inferior value.

14,066. Was what the witness said correct about 1s. 6d. being offered to her in money for 1s. 9d. and 1s. for 1s. 3d.?-It depends on circumstances. In some cases if an article was sold at 1s. for goods, the person might get 9d. or 10d. for it in money, according as the article was worth it. If it was an article which we had a special order for, we would perhaps give 10d., because we would soon get the money back again; but if it was an article that was likely to lie for some time, we would only give 9d. for it.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, senior, examined.

14,067. You are a merchant in Lerwick, and tacksman of the estate of Lunna?-I am.

14,068. Have you a fish-curing establishment at Vidlin?-It is at Skerries. We take a few fish at Vidlin, but there is not much done there.

14,069. But you have a store at Vidlin?-Yes.

14,070. Have you also a curing establishment in Lerwick?-We do very little with it. We sometimes take a few dried fish here.

14,071. You were present to-day and heard the evidence of some men from Lunnasting parish?-Yes.

14,072. Do you wish to make any observation or any statement with regard to that evidence?-I think there are no particular observations I can make, except with regard to the difference between the charges for goods in Lerwick and in the country. We always have some additional expense upon the goods which are sent to the country, but we make the difference as small as we possibly can.

14,073. What should you say was the difference between the prices charged at Vidlin and those which you would charge in Lerwick?-Perhaps from 21/2 to 5 per cent.; but the fact is, that for some things the prices are the same. For instance, cotton goods are the same price.

14,074. Can you land them at Vidlin at very nearly the same price, as at Lerwick?-Yes. The amount of freight would be very small, and we make a point to sell them at the same rates. I put on the prices myself, and I know that we sell these articles at the same price as here.

14,075. I understand the men on the Lunna estate are under obligation by the tenure on which they hold their land to fish for you?-Yes, if they fish at Skerries. Mr. Bell has booths and beaches there; and seventeen years ago he applied to me about them. I was very reluctant to go into the matter at all, but he asked me to assist him, and I agreed to do it, and we have been dealing in that way ever since.

14,076. Has Mr. Bell an interest in that yet, except that he receives his rent from you?-No. He has no interest in it whatever, except that by his arrangement with me he is secure in getting his rent.

14,077. Have you any fishermen fishing for you who are tenants upon other estates than that of Lunna?-Not at that place. I have had several people in Nesting, on Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground. They have fished for me perhaps for thirty years; but it is very little they do, and they generally give their fish dry.

14,078. Are these winter or summer fish?-Both winter and summer.

14,079. What do you pay for a fisherman's summer fish of his own curing?-Their own fish are generally never so well cured as when cured by the merchants themselves. This year I paid the men 21 for their own cure, and I don't think I could get above that for them. For my own cure the current price was per ton.

14,080. What were the circumstances connected with the case of Peter Williamson who had come under an engagement to Robert Murray at Swinister last season?-I don't know what engagement he came under to Murray, but Williamson denied it to me. All I can say about it is that he is a tenant of Mr. Bell's, and that when he settled his account at Vidlin with me it was understood he was to fish again; but one of his partners had engaged to go with another boat of mine, and he (Williamson) did not know very well whether he would manage to get a boat for the fishing or not. I suppose he had made some kind of statement to Robert Murray about that; but at that time Williamson was really very much indebted to me. I had kept him and his family alive with meal for year after year, and he was very far behind; and it would scarcely have done to have allowed him to go anywhere he liked. I got a crew for him, and then he was quite willing to go and fish for me. I think he ought to have asked me first before he made any promise to any other body, because he knew that it was the rule on the estate to fish for me if they fished from Skerries at all. There are many of the Lunna tenants who never fish for me, but who fish for Mr. Adie or go to Faroe and Greenland, and I never stop them from doing that at all.

14,081. It is not part of the understanding that any men who go to Faroe or Greenland should go in your boats?-No.

14,082. If a man goes to Faroe or Greenland, he is free to go for whoever he likes?-Yes.

14,083. Is he free if he stays at home?-If he goes to Skerries, as there is an establishment there belonging to the estate, and which must be kept up, it is understood that any man going there must fish for me; but Mr. Adie has a good many of Mr. Bell's tenants fishing for him, and when people go to Feideland I never interfere with them.

14,084. Are there many of them who go so far as Feideland?- Yes, a good many. The Delting tenants do that.

14,085. I understand you had a considerably smaller number of men employed last year than you had some years ago?-Yes; they had succeeded very well for two or three years previously, and they had received a good deal of supplies, and I did not ask or force anybody to go to the fishing unless they chose. I told them that if they could do better otherwise, I should be very glad if they did so; but I am sorry to say that those tenants who fished elsewhere, or who went to Greenland, did not seem better off.

14,086. How do you engage your beach boys and curers at Skerries?-I generally engage them by the week.

14,087. Are they mostly connected with the Lunna estate?-Yes, generally; but sometimes I engage others.

14,088. Then you don't pay, as they do in other places, a beach fee by the year?-We settle with them at the year's end. We cannot very well do otherwise.

14,089. Are they engaged on weekly wages?-Yes.

14,090. That is to say, the wage is counted by the week?-Yes.

14,091. It is not a fee for the season?-No; it used to be, but I found it better to pay them by the week, and let them know what they have to get.

14,092. Is that wage fixed at the commencement of the season?- Generally it is, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes we don't know what the boys can do, as we have not tried them; and we like to see what they are fit for before we arrange what they are to be paid. We generally give them what we consider a fair thing.

14,093. These people, you say, are settled with at the end of the year, and they have been taking supplies as they require them?- Yes; they require little meal and other things to live upon.

14,094. Do they get these at Skerries in the course of the season?-Yes.

14,095. And these supplies are accounted for at settling time?- Yes.

14,096. Have the people so employed in curing generally a balance to get, or do they generally exhaust [Page 352] their wages in supplies?-That depends very much upon the disposition of the party.

14,097. But what is the fact in the general run of cases?-We generally have a balance to pay them. The dealings of these beach people are usually small. They cannot be very large, but they generally have a balance in their favour, and they get what is due to them in cash as soon as we ascertain its amount.

14,098. Do they get a small sum of cash, if they want it, in the course of the season, for any particular purpose?-Yes; I keep cash at the station for that particular purpose, so that none of the men may be disappointed if they want it.

14,099. But I suppose it is a very small proportion which they ask for in cash?-They cannot expect much. They don't need it.

14,100. They have nothing to do with it at a place like that?-No; but whenever they want it they get it; and sometimes when they get cash, they don't put it to the best purpose. They are near a spirit shop there.

14,101. Is that Mr. Adie's?-Yes.

14,102. Is his the only spirit shop there?-Yes.

14,103. Do you think people supply themselves more with liberally with spirits and other luxuries in the fishing season than they do during the rest of the year?-I think not, generally.

14,104. They are working harder at that time, are they not?-Yes.

14,105. And they would require a larger supply?-Yes; but the men are not very much addicted to that. A few individuals may be; but the men, upon the whole, are not extravagant in that way.

14,106. I noticed that a purchase of meal was made by Thomas Hutchison in Skerries at your shop about January 1868. Can you tell me what the current price of meal was at that date?-I was told it was in 1867, and I looked up the prices for that year.

14,107. I have found, however, that it was in 1868. What do you think the price was at that time?-I would not like to say, because the price of meal varies so much; but I will look my books, and mention what it was.

14,108. You were engaged in the herring fishing one time, I understand?-Yes; and I unfortunately am a little engaged in it still. It has been a complete failure lately.

14,109. What is the nature of the arrangement with the men in that fishing?-The men are generally understood to have the nets and the boats. The boats are their own property. If a crew wants a boat, which costs from 17 to 18, I have to pay for it; but I wish them to have the name of owning the boat, and I charge them hire, although the hires really cannot pay the price. I wish them to call the boats their own, and I do not debit them with the price, but it is charged in a separate account to the crew.

14,110. Is that account debited yearly with the hire of the boat?- Yes.

14,111. How do you arrange about the nets?-They are also entered in a separate account for the crew.

14,112. How is the payment for the fish arranged?-The men get one half of the fish for their labour, and the other half goes to the credit of the boat and nets. It is entered to the credit of the boat and net account, and the other half of the fish goes to their own account.

14,113. Is there a fixed hire for the boat and nets?-There is no fixed hire. We generally charge 1 for the herring fishing, and 2, 10s. for the haaf or summer fishing.

14,114. How long does the herring fishing last?-About six weeks; but the men rarely go to it at all, because lately there have been no herrings on the coast.

14,115. Then it is hardly a hire that is paid for the boat and nets, but you furnish both and get one half of the fish?-Yes.

14,116. There is no account for the boat and nets, except that you take one half of the fish and the other half is divided among the men, without any other deduction, unless for the amount of any account which they may have incurred?-Yes.

14,117. Is the price of the herring fixed at the commencement of the season?-I never made any arrangement about that with them, but usually paid the price which Messrs. Hay & Co. paid. But we have got none to pay for lately at all.

14,118. How long has that fishing been in existence here?-For four years with me, but there has been a herring fishing existing here for a long time.

14,119. Are Messrs. Hay the principal parties engaged in it?-Yes.

14,120. Then the herring fishing here is not conducted on the same principle as at Wick?-It is not.

14,121. No price per cran has been fixed at the beginning of the season?-I think not.

14,122. Is there any particular reason for that?-I don't know any reason for it at all.

14,123. I suppose it has been rather assimilated to the other fishing speculations of Shetland?-I believe so.

14,124. The arrangement you enter into is as nearly as possible the same as exists in the other branches of the fishing trade here?- Yes.

14,125. There is a settlement at the end of the year for the summer fishing?-Yes. The men are settled with for both branches of the fishing together.

14,126. In a letter which you wrote and sent along with the returns you have made, you say, 'In the year 1868 I paid about 300 in cash advances for the people on the herring fishing alone, which has since then turned out a complete failure. These circumstances account for the large amount of debt shown to be due in the year 1870.' Does that mean that when the people went to the herring fishing you had to make considerable advances to them in cash?- I may explain that these men had been fishing for Mr. Adie, and a number of them were due him money on account, and I paid all their advances and cleared them off with Mr. Adie. I took them into my own hands, and of course these sums had to be debited in the men's accounts.

14,127. At that time had you gone into the herring fishing more largely than before?-Yes.

14,128. Had you no men engaged in the herring fishing then who had been fishing for you in the home fishing before?-No, I had not been in the herring fishing for twelve years before.

14,129. But had you any man who had been engaged in the home fishing of the year before for you?-Yes; the men had all been engaged at the ling fishing for me, but they fished for Mr. Adie in the herring fishing as soon as the ling fishing was over, and some of them seemed anxious for a change, and others not.

14,130. For what change?-That I should have the herring fishing as well as the ling fishing. It was their own request that I should begin the herring fishing again, and I thought it was as well to do it.

14,131. Had they had accounts with Mr. Adie, as regards the herring fishing, separate from what they ran for the time they were employed in the ling fishing with you?-Yes.

14,132. Did Mr. Adie go out of the herring fishing altogether when these men left him?-No. He is in it still, but he had not so many hands employed in after they left him as he had before.

14,133. You thought it a reasonable thing, when you took away his herring fishers, that you should take their accounts with them?- Yes; that was suggested by some of the men to me, and I intimated to Mr. Adie that some of the men wanted it, and that it would be as well to carry it out.

14,134. Did the men say to you that they had accounts with Mr. Adie?-I knew that.

14,135. And perhaps they demurred a little, or felt little difficulty in leaving him in that state of matters?-They did not say much about that, but I thought it was fair to clear Mr. Adie if I took away the men who had been engaged to him.

14,136. Have you ever known such an arrangement [Page 353] being made when a change of employment took place in any other branch of the fishing business?-No.

14,137. If a man shifted from one employer to another in the home fishing, has it been usual for the new employer to take over any debt that the man may have incurred to the previous employer?-I should suppose that would be reasonable, but I am not aware that it has been generally the case.

14,138. Have you known any instances where it has occurred?-I think I remember one or two instances.

14,139. But you don't know of any special arrangement between merchants to that effect?-No.

14,140. And you have not entered into any such arrangement yourself?-No.

14,141. Did any of the men object to the debt which they had incurred to Mr. Adie being transferred to you?-No; I think they were rather pleased at it, because they were afraid Mr. Adie would have been hard upon them for it.

14,142. Might he have been harder after they left his service?- There is no doubt he would, and he would have had a right to be so.

14,143. Do you purchase kelp on the Lunna estate?-Yes.

14,144. Does your tack include a lease of the kelp shores?-In point of fact I have no tack, but merely a letter, and just now I am acting upon a verbal agreement from year to year. I can give it up whenever I choose, on giving it short intimation.

14,145. Does that arrangement include the kelp shores?-Yes.

14,146. What is the price allowed by you for kelp?-4s. 6d. when paid in goods.

14,147. Is there a different price when it is paid for in cash?-Mr. Sutherland manages that matter; but I am pretty sure that he pays only 4s. in cash, and anybody can get that who chooses.

14,148. But I suppose most of them take it in goods-Many of them do. It is it very convenient way for them, and the goods are not charged any higher in consequence, but we consider that the profit on the goods enables us to give a higher price.

14,149. How many of the women may be employed in that way?- Perhaps about sixty, taking it as a rough guess.

14,150. All these people, I presume, have accounts open at the shop at Vidlin, as I have seen to be the case in other parts of Shetland?-Yes. We would be very glad if the accounts were less, but really it is impossible to work with the people without them. It is almost impossible to get the balances brought down, but we never refuse them cash when they have it to get.

14,151. Do you purchase wool to any extent?-No, I don't do anything in the hosiery line.

14,152. Do you think it would be possible to carry on the fish-curing business here profitably without combining it with the other business in the shop at Vidlin?-I don't see how it could be done.

14,153. But supposing it could be done,-supposing the people could get their supplies elsewhere,-would the fish-curer be able to carry on his business at profit?-All they would do in that case would merely be to take a commission, as they now do, for selling the fish. They calculate upon getting that commission at present, and that is what they would expect under another system; but the people unfortunately cannot do without these supplies. Some of the men, however, are well off. For instance, the man Laurence Simpson, who was examined today, is very well off and can do without advances. He can buy his meal wherever he chooses.

14,154. Would it be a profitable thing for the fish-curer if he were content with that commission, without having a profit on his goods?-Perhaps that might be done, but I don't know.

14,155. Is there any other point you wish to mention?-I have heard some of the men who have been examined here, saying that they would like their freedom. I have no objection to any man having his freedom and being allowed to cure his fish for himself, but I suspect such a system would destroy the character of the fish in the country if it were gone into. The fish would be injured by it; I know that by experience. The cure would not be so good as it is at present.

14,156. But if the men had their freedom, would they not employ a factor for themselves or would it not come to this in the end, that the men would sell their fish to any curer who was most convenient for them?-Many of them would cure their own fish, which they do now in some places, but we never can get the quality of the fish good enough when they are cured in that way. They cannot be put in among fine fish, because the men do not dry them so well as they ought to be, and they will not keep for any length of time.

14,157. Would they not very soon find that out, and either employ a fish-factor for the curing of their fish upon the co-operative system, or return virtually to the present system and sell their fish to any merchant who would take them, with the exception that he would pay for them in ready money?-I am afraid any change of that kind would affect the quality of the fish.

14,158. But if it affected the quality of the fish, the men would soon find that they did not get so good a price for them?-Yes.

14,159. And they would either return to the old system, or to some one under which the curing of the fish would be equally good. The men would not be content permanently to take a lower price?-They might be obliged to take a lower price, although they did not know it.

14,160. But I have been told today that the Shetland people are a very intelligent class, and they would surely have intelligence enough to discover that they were getting a lower price than they might get for their produce?-Some of them are intelligent, and no doubt they would discover that.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, examined.

14,161. Are you a clerk in the employment of Mr. Leask?-I am.

14,162. How long have you been in his service?-About nineteen years.

14,163. Have you been principally concerned with the engagement and settling with seamen employed in the Greenland whale fishing?-Principally, of late, since the settlement at the Custom House was commenced. That was five years ago.

14,164. Were you not employed in that way before?-Yes; not altogether, but along with others.

14,165. Before that time, the accounts of the men, I understand, were always settled at Mr. Leask's office?-Always.

14,166. And the men were paid merely the balance in cash?- They were paid the balance, but they had to get cash during the currency of their account besides that. They always got advances of cash in the course of the year if they wanted them.

14,167. The balance that was paid to them at the end in cash was the settlement for their wages and their first payment of oil-money?-Yes.

14,168. Was the settlement for the final payment of oil-money generally made at a later period?-Always at a later period.

14,169. Was there always a settlement before the last payment of oil-money became due?-Always, except when they happened to be in debt.

14,170. They might be in debt to a greater amount than anything that was due to them?-They might, but of course, if a man had money to get, he was sure to come forward when he required it.

14,171. Were the accounts which were run with the men at that time larger than you now allow them to incur?-I should say not.

[Page 354]

14,172. Are there some men even now who are indebted at settlement to the full amount of their wages and oil-money?- Very few.

14,173. But that does occur?-It may be the case with some of the young hands.

14,174. Does that happen now as often as formerly?-I daresay it does. It depends on the success of the voyage; but we are rather more particular now than we used to be.

14,175. In what way are you more particular now?-We know better what time the voyage will occupy and we always keep within the mark as far as possible.

14,176. Is there less security now for getting your money paid at the proper time than there was formerly?-I cannot say that we have experienced that.

14,177. Previous to 1867, you said the settlement of the men's accounts generally took place before the last payment of oil-money was due?-Yes, always.

14,178. Was that not so only in the greater number of cases?-It was always the case. The final payment was only a few shillings in general, and it was usually a considerable time before the owners advised us what amount of oil the vessel had turned out; so that if a man had the bulk of his wages to get, he generally got them a long time before the second payment of oil-money came.

14,179. Was the second payment usually made before the man engaged for another voyage if he was going?-In some cases; but if the man lived at a considerable distance from Lerwick, he would not come in for the few shillings which were due him for his second payment until he was about to engage again.

14,180. How was that second payment made? Was it in money, or generally in goods?-If the man had the money coming to him, it was usually paid in money; but sometimes he may have got a little advance on his second payment.

14,181. If that was the case it would be in his account?-Yes, a continuation of his previous account; but we did not care much about advancing on second payments, because they were so uncertain. The vessel might not turn out nearly so much as was expected.

14,182. You are aware that a new system was introduced about 1867 or 1868?-Yes.

14,183. And since that time you have been employed in going up to the Custom House to settle with the men?-Yes.

14,184. Do you take a quantity of cash up with you and hand it over to the men in presence of the superintendent?-Yes.

14,185. Have you, since that system began, invariably taken up your ledgers containing the men's accounts, or any note of the amount of their accounts, with you?-Of course we have never taken up the books.

14,186. Did you at any time take any notes or abstracts of the men's accounts?-I always took a note of the sum which each man had to get.

14,187. Was that a note of the sum which each man had to get for wages and oil-money?-No; it was a note of the actual amount due to the men, because each man had an account of wages furnished to him previously.

14,188. Had he received that from the captain?-No; the account of wages was made up by the agent on shore from the captain's store-book.

14,189. Is that account of wages always made up by the agent and handed to the men before settlement?-Yes.

14,190. Is it not sometimes taken up with you to the settlement?- The man always carries it up with him.

14,191. When you go up to the Custom House, are you provided with any note of the amount of the man's account due to Mr. Leask?-In the first years, I think we had that occasionally.

14,192. In what form did you take that up?-Just slip.

14,193. Was that a note of all the items in the account?-No

14,194. It was just a note of the total sum due to Mr. Leask?-Yes.

14,195. Have you not done so since the first year?-I think not.

14,196. When did you last take such a slip with you to the Custom House?-I think not after the first year, so far as I can recollect.

14,197. The first year of what?-The first year, say, 1867; I think I have not done it since that time.

14,198. Can you not tax your memory so far as to say whether or not you had it in 1870?-I did not have it in 1870; I am quite sure of that.

14,199. Nor in 1871?-Nor in 1871.

14,200. May you have had it in 1869?-I think not.

14,201. Was the last time you had it in 1868?-To the best of my recollection I think it was.

14,202. May you have had it in 1869, although you don't remember?-I think not, but I cannot be quite positive.

14,203. But you are quite clear about 1870, that you had no note whatever of the men's accounts with you, except what was entered in the account of wages?-Yes. I did not require it then. It could do no good.

14,204. Why was it required in 1868?-Because sometimes the men settled their accounts at the Custom House.

14,205. Would that be done often?-Sometimes; but not as a rule, I think.

14,206. When these regulations were introduced, and you first went up to the Custom House to settle, was it not intended that all the accounts should be settled there and then?-That was the regulation.

14,207. Was it intended that all Mr. Leask's accounts should be paid at the same time that the men got their money handed over in presence of the superintendent?-There was no formal proposal about that.

14,208. Was it not done in some cases?-In some cases it was, when the men agreed to do it.

14,209. Did the superintendent object to that?-He did not object. The whole money was paid down to the men, and sometimes they gave back what they knew they had to give back.

14,210. Would that be done in one half of the cases?-I could not speak to a proportion.

14,211. When they did not hand back then what was due to Mr. Leask, what was done?-They handed it back when they came down to the office afterwards.

14,212. Do they come down to the office now and pay their accounts after being settled with at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,213. Do you settle with five or six or a dozen of them at a time, as the case may be?-Yes, any number, from one up to a dozen, or perhaps more.

14,214. Is the settlement with these men after they have got their cash always carried out and finished on the same day at Mr. Leask's office?-Yes, invariably.

14,215. Do they come straight down from the Custom House to the office and pay their accounts there?-They generally come in the course of the day.

14,216. Do they come down along with you?-If it is only one man who has been settled with, perhaps we will come down together, and perhaps not, just as it happens. I have no fear for them coming down. I never bother my head about them after I give them the money.

14,217. Do you leave them to come down or not as they please?- Decidedly.

14,218. Is there never a black sheep to whom you have to suggest the propriety of coming straight down?-The men know they have the money to pay, and they look upon it as a just debt.

14,219. Is there not a note kept if a man fails to come down?-We are not likely to forget that. There is no note of it kept.

14,220. Do you note the fact that you have settled with him for his wages and oil-money?-Yes. The account is squared at once as soon as we come down from the Custom House.

14,221. Do you not note the fact in some form or [Page 355] other, that the man has not come down to settle his account when he has failed to do so?-No, the book would show that without any note. I may say, however, that I have scarcely ever had a case of that kind, except it may be one.

14,222. Was that Robert Grains?-Yes; and even he did come down ultimately and settle his account. He was settled with along with about a dozen others, and they all went down. Some of them had been settled with before I came down from the Custom House, but he did not come until I came myself.

14,223. Did he come down with you?-No; he came down himself. I believe the other lads induced him to come back to the shop and settle his account.

14,224. Had he at first refused to do so?-He had been telling the lads that he was going to keep the money or most of the money. I think they said he wanted to go right away and never come near the shop at all, but they induced him to come.

14,225. Did he give any reason for wanting to go away?-Nothing, except that he wanted the money for some other purpose.

14,226. Was his account for goods equal to the whole amount of his wages?-He had about 1 to get.

14,227. That means that he had all his money to hand over to you except 1?-Yes.

14,228. Did you speak to him on the subject?-I did. I asked him if he meant to swindle us out of the money for the outfit that he got to enable him to go to Greenland.

14,229. Was it at the Custom House you said that to him?-No, it was at the office after he had come down. He said no, but that he required money to pay for a boat or to buy a boat, or something of that kind.

14,230. Did that happen on the day of settlement?-Yes.

14,231. Had you understood before that he was intending to go away without paying your account?-No, I had no idea of it.

14,232. Then how did you happen to ask him that question?-He came back to the office after he came out from the Custom House, and he was going to give back part of the money, but he wanted to keep more than he actually had to get after paying Mr. Leask's account.

14,233. But how did you know that he required persuasion to induce him to come back and pay his account?-I recollect the other lads telling me that they had induced him to come back.

14,234. Had they told you about that before Grains came down?- I scarcely think so. I think there were several of them there along with him when I came down.

14,235. Did he come down from the Custom House along with you?-No.

14,236. Was he at the office when you came down from the Custom House?-I am not quite sure whether he was actually there when I came down, but most of that crew were discharged that day. They had been landed the day before, and most of them were discharged on the day after they landed.

14,237. I don't quite understand how you knew about Grains having been unwilling to pay his account?-I knew it when he came to the office to give back the money that I had paid him at the Custom House.

14,238. Did he refuse to give you back the money?-He did; not all, but part of it.

14,239. Did he want to pay only a portion of his account?-Yes.

14,240. Did he say that to you when he came to the office?-Yes.

14,241. Was that the first intimation you had got of his intention to keep part of the money?-I think so.

14,242. Did you object to that, and tell him he must pay the whole?-I did.

14,243. Did you intimate what the consequences would be if he did not?-Yes; I daresay I told him that we would pull him up. I considered that we had run a considerable risk in giving him an outfit for his first year at Greenland, and that we were entitled to get the advance repaid, because we might never see him again.

14,244. Have you had occasion to advise any of the men on other occasions as to the propriety of paying agents' accounts, or giving them similar advice to what you gave in the case of Grains?-No; I think that was the only case which has occurred out of many hundreds.

14,245. Have the men always walked down quietly enough to your office?-Yes.

14,246. And often in company with you?-Very often. Perhaps, if there was one, he came back with me; but, as a rule, I would often stay behind for a little, or go down to the office by some other way.

14,247. Then possibly the men may have gone to the office before you?-They often did.

14,248. When you had a batch of them at the Custom House, did you not send some of them down to the office direct, while you waited to finish your settlement with the others?-They were settled with one by one; and they went away as they were settled with.

14,249. But as they were settled with, did you not send them down to the office?-They went of their own accord.

14,250. Did you never tell them to go to the office?-They knew to go.

14,251. Did you never tell them?-I have seen me telling them to go as soon as possible, because I wanted them to be settled with and away before I came down. Mr. Robertson generally would be waiting for them, and he might have to go out.

14,252. Do you mean that Mr. Robertson would be expecting them?-Yes.

14,253. And he might have other engagements which he had to attend to as soon as their business was over?-Yes.

14,254. Therefore I suppose you may often have had occasion to tell them to go down to the shop direct from the Custom House?- I may have told them to go as soon as possible.

14,255. Did you not always do so?-No.

14,256. Did you not always tell them so when you thought it was necessary?-No.

14,257. Do you mean that you may have thought it necessary for them to go to the shop and settle, and that yet you refrained from telling them so?-I never thought much about it at all. I just gave them the money; and sometimes I would tell them to go to the shop as soon as possible, because Mr. Robertson would be waiting for them. Sometimes that was about the dinner-hour, and very often they would not be there until I came down myself. I would be engaged settling with them up till three o'clock.

14,258. Did you consider that it was not necessary on every occasion to tell them to go back to the shop?-Yes.

14,259. Was that because the men understood quite well that they were to go to the shop and settle their accounts?-The men understood that quite well. They understood they had got the money that was due to them from the shop, and they understood that in general they had accounts in the shop for cash or goods, and sometimes for advances to their families, and they required no persuasion to go and repay these sums when they had got their money.

14,260. Did they know that they were expected to go down to the shop?-They were expected to go.

14,261. But did they know that they were expected?-They knew it.

14,262. So that, although they might have had debts due to other merchants, they were expected to go down and pay Mr. Leask in the first instance?-Yes.

14,263. And you expected that, although those debts to other merchants might have been incurred earlier than Mr. Leask's?- The debt contracted on the voyage was the first debt to be settled, and it was always understood that that debt had first to be paid, because it was all incurred during the voyage.

14,264. You mean that it had been incurred for the purpose of the voyage, and you held that you had a [Page 356] prior claim on the proceeds of that voyage for the amount of your account, just as a merchant has a lien on the supplies he furnishes to a shop?-Yes.

14,265. Would you have objected to the men going away and paying the earlier accounts before they paid Mr. Leask's?-Of course, if they paid them out of that money.

14,266. Had you instructions from Mr. Leask, or Mr. Robertson, or any one in Mr. Leask's employment, to see that the men did come down and pay their accounts?-I had no such instructions.

14,267. Did you consider that a part of your duty?-I did not consider it to be any part of my duty at all. If I had a dozen men to settle with, I settled with them one after another, and they went away. I did not tell them to stay there until I came with them, or follow them down by any means.

14,268. Was it no part of your duty to warn a man who was going away without paying, that he had first to settle his account at the shop?-No, I never saw a man who went away without paying.

14,269. But suppose the case of a man who did so: was it any part of your duty to remind him of the debt which he was due to Mr. Leask?-No. They did not require any reminding. They knew quite well about it.

14,270. Why did you cease to settle with the men in the Custom House after 1868?-Because the shipping master objected, and would not allow it to be done.

14,271. Was it to you, or in your presence, that he took that objection?-Yes, I was present.

14,272. Did he take the objection in any particular case when a settlement of that kind was going on with the men?-No, there was no particular case.

14,273. Did he do so at a time when you were settling with a man?-Yes; either with a man, or two or three men, I forget which.

14,274. What took place then?-The men just went to the office.

14,275. Did you remonstrate with the superintendent?-No.

14,276. You just went down to the office with the men, and settled with them there?-The men went to the office, and I finished my business at the Custom House and went down too.

14,277. Did you consider it a grievance to be prevented from settling with the men in the Custom House?-If the men were agreeable for it, I thought there was nothing wrong in it. It was entirely with their concurrence that it was done.

14,278. Is there anything else you wish to say wish to say?-I wish to say that I have examined the books, and I find that Mr. Jack Williamson's rent at Ulsta was not advanced after Mr. Leask purchased the property. I now show the valuation roll of 1860, where it is entered at 8, 10s., and in 1871 it is entered at the same sum. That rent included the farm and all accommodation-the shop, beach, booth, and everything.

14,279. I see he was tenant of an additional subject in 1871, for which he paid a rent of 10s.; and of grazing park at Ulsta at a rent of 6?-Yes; but the 10s. includes the dwelling-house, shop, farm, and all accommodation he had about the place.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ADAM TAIT, examined.

14,280. You are a shopman to Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I am.

14,281. Did you purchase a hap lately from Margaret Jamieson, Quarff, who has been examined today?-Mr. Sinclair purchased it, and I settled with her for it the time she sold it.

14,282. When was that?-About three days ago. It was a long plaid she sold.

14,283. What was the price of it?-20s. in goods; and that was paid.

14,284. To what extent did you supply her with goods?-I gave her 19s. 6d. worth of goods and 6d. in cash. She wanted 3s. in cash. I told her the bargain was made in goods, and I could not give it to her in cash. Besides, there was no cash in the drawer at the time. Then she thought of something else she wanted, and I borrowed 6d. from the clerk in the end gave it to her.

14,285. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. 6d. in cash it would be charged as 1s. 9d. against her?-I believe I did say that she would be charged 2d. in the shilling if she wanted cash, as the bargain had been made in goods.

14,286. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. in cash it would be charged as 1s. 3d. against her?-No. I merely said it would be 2d. in the shilling. I might have given her the cash she asked if we had had it, but there was no change in the shop at the time, and I had to borrow the sixpence that I gave her.

14,287. On what day was that?-I think it was on Wednesday last, but I am not certain, and about twelve or one o'clock in the day. I recollect the transaction very well, as the woman seemed to be ill-pleased when she went out.

14,288. Is it a frequent thing to tell a woman who asks for cash; that there is no cash in the shop?-No; that does not often happen.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

14,289. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to the evidence which has just been given?-I wish to say that it often happens that we have no small change in the shop, unless we get change for 1 and any cash that we get during the day is frequently given out again for goods before night. Therefore it is no evasion to say that there is no cash in the shop, because it is often the fact.

14,290. That happens in a great many shops, and it may happen more frequently in a shop where the cash transactions are few and barter transactions prevail?-Yes; it happens more frequently in that case.

.

LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 29, 1872

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Mrs. CATHERINE WILLIAMSON, recalled.

14,291. I understand you wish to make a correction on the evidence you gave on the first day of this inquiry?-Yes. I stated that I had sold a shawl to Mr. Laurenson; but I should have said it was to Mr. George Laurence, Commercial Street, Lerwick, and not to Mr. Arthur Laurenson.

14,292. Was the rest of your evidence correct?-Yes.

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Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, recalled.

14,293. Do you wish to make any addition to your former evidence?-Yes. I wish to say with regard to the Accountant to the Board of Trade's report, that I consider it unjust to the agents concerned in the Greenland trade, and I concur generally in all that was said by Mr. William Robertson on that point.

14,294. Is there any particular fact in that report, apart from matters of opinion, which you think is incorrectly stated?- The report commences: 'In accordance with my instructions, I paid special attention to the circumstances attending the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels, great difficulty and delay having been experienced by the Board of Trade in getting the releases for such voyages completed within anything like a reasonable time.' I do not consider that to be correct. The Board of Trade never fixed a time for the releases to be completed, and consequently the men do not come for their settlement until it suits their own convenience.

14,295. Do you mean that before 1868 no rule existed on that subject?-There is no time fixed even now for the men to come.

14,296. Does not the third head of the regulations provide that, when the men are landed, the master shall deliver the store-book, and that the balances due shall be paid in presence of the superintendent?-The master does deliver the store-book when the crew are landed, but the regulation does not say that the men are to appear immediately before the superintendent. If they would remain in town, that would be done; but they prefer going home, especially when they are not required by the regulations to remain.

14,297. The Merchant Shipping Act provides that the master or owner shall pay the wages of every seaman within three days after the cargo has been delivered, or within five days after the seaman's discharge, whichever first happens?-These are the terms of the Act; but that never was the rule in the Greenland trade, because the men are landed in any part of Shetland the ship first comes to, and the men never come forward to Lerwick to be settled with until it suits them to come.

14,298. I don't know that Mr. Hamilton lays the blame upon the agents for the delay in getting the releases completed?-Not in that sentence, but he does so subsequently in his report. He says, 'When the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion of the crews should not be settled with at once.'

14,299. Do you say that that is not for the agent's interest?-I say that it is not. It is not for his interest to delay the settlement, and the settlement is not delayed by him.

14,300. Is it not for the agent's interest to have the money in his hands as long as possible?-Perhaps if he has the money in his hands, he may make a few shillings of interest; but when the men come forward individually to settle, there is more time spent in making the settlement than any profit he can make can cover. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again, and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That statement is not consistent with fact.

14,301. Is it not true, as you have already stated, that the seamen do hand back to the agent the money which they have got?-Yes, but it is not true that they are indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount.

14,302. You think the amount of debt is not generally equal to the amount payable in wages?-I am quite sure it is not.

14,303. Was it, at any time in your experience, common for a man to have an amount of debt to the agent equal to the amount of his wages and oil-money?-Very often, when they had made a bad voyage, the younger hands would be in debt.

14,304. Mr. Hamilton says, in another part of his report: 'For this purpose to engage the men at Lerwick, they employ agents in Lerwick, who get, I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men;' is there anything incorrect in that, in point of fact?-It is quite correct that the agents have little direct profit from their agency. The remuneration is quite inadequate for the amount of work and expense connected with the trade. Then he says, 'These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act as land agents for others.' There are only four agents altogether, and there are only two of them who are proprietors of any quantity of land. The others do not act as land agents, so far as ever I heard. 'Many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage.' That applies chiefly to the young hands, who require extra clothing when going to such a cold climate, and they get it from the agents. 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents.' I never saw that. It is not done in Mr. Leask's business. Of course I cannot speak with certainty for the others, but am pretty certain it is not done in any case.

14,305. In your experience the seaman takes no allotment note at all, so that the only advances which are got during his absence are those which are made through the agent in the shape of supplies to his family, without any allotment note being required?-Yes. We have always done so.

14,306. But the agent is quite aware that no allotment note has been granted?-Yes.

14,307. So that the effect is just the same as if the allotment note had been given to the agent?-It is not quite the same in settling with them, because we have to pay the whole money to the men; whereas, if an allotment had been granted, it would have been deducted.

14,308. But if there is no allotment note made out to the man, and given to his wife or any of his friends, the agent has not to pay the money away?-No.

14,309. So that he is in perfect safety to make advances in the shape of any supplies which may be required during the man's absence?-He is quite safe to do that if the man pays him back at the end of the voltage.

14,310. At least he is in greater safety than if the man's friends were in a position to draw part of his wages during his absence, because he knows that the wages cannot be spent?-Yes. If the man's family have a note, that is all the advance they require in general; but as it is when a family have a weekly allowance, I should say they get about one half of their allowance in cash.

14,311. Do the families have a weekly allowance from the agent?-In some cases.

14,312. Is that done by private arrangement?-Yes.

14,313. Are these families residing in Lerwick, or mostly in the country?-Mostly in Lerwick. Families residing in the country only send in occasionally for anything they may require, but they are not by any means bound to do it.

14,314. But is it a common thing for the families of men residing in Lerwick, or near it, to get a weekly advance in provisions or in money?-It is quite common.

14,315. Is it mostly in provisions or mostly in money that that advance is given?-I think it is about one half in money. They always get some money.

14,316. Is that entered in the man's account?-Yes. Then it is not correct to say that a man who wants to take his outfit from any shopkeeper is practically debarred from doing so. He can do so if he likes.

14,317. Does he ever do it?-There is no doubt he does.

14,318. Have you ever known any case of a man doing so?-Yes, plenty. We know that when a man does not get goods from us, he must get them somewhere else.

[Page 358]

14,319. But he may have had an outfit before, and did not require a fresh one for that voyage?-He may.