13,427. Was your father a farmer or crofter and fisherman in Dunrossness?-Yes.

13,428. Before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands, I believe, the tenants were free?-No; the fishermen were bound some forty-three years ago. My father held a croft then on the estate of Brough, of which Mrs. Sinclair was proprietor, and she bound him over to fish for Mr. Bruce at that time, although she did not take the fishing herself. That fishing came to be the most ruinous concern that ever happened to my family, because it brought my father into debt that he might otherwise have been clear of.

13,429. How did it bring him into debt?-Because the fish were not managed properly, and of course they came to be sold as bad fish, and the men got nothing for them, or next to nothing. I heard my father say that they got 3s. 11d. for dry fish in the last year of the fishing, and they had to pay for salt and cure out of that.

13,430. Could a free man, at that time have got more?-A free man was getting from 9 to 10 a ton; and things came to such a pass that the people got desperate. There were poor years at the same time, and the men applied to their landlord, and got their liberty on condition of paying 15s. a head of liberty money. That was kept on until a few years ago, and then it was put into the rent again.

13,431. But it has only been since 1860 that the men have been bound again to fish in this district for their landlord; they were free before that time?-Yes, they were free for about twenty years. Of course I have always been a free man, because I have not been a fisherman.

13,432. Have you known many men in your district being warned in consequence of fishing for others than their landlord?-I have not known many.

13,433. Have you known men who would have fished for others if they had not been afraid of being warned?-I suppose they would have preferred that but warning comes to be a very serious thing here. In the south a man can shift from town to town and get employment: but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there, either for love or money.

13,434. Do you know of any case where compulsion has been used to oblige any of the men to deal at any of the stores in the district?-I cannot say that I have.

13,435. Do the men never get a hint to that effect?-No; but I suppose they are obliged to go through necessity, because they have no money with which to go anywhere else.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GEORGE M'LACHLAN, examined.

13,436. Are you the principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse?-I am.

13,437. Where do you get the supplies for your house?-I get most of them from Aberdeen and Granton.

13,438. Do you purchase them yourself?-Yes.

13,439. They are not supplied by the Commissioners?-no.

13,440. Have you got any supplies at the neighbouring shops?-I have got very little from Grutness.

13,441. Have you got any from Hay & Co.'s shop, from Quendale?-No. I opened an account with Mr. Henderson after I came; but I have only been here since 1st. July.

13,442. Have you found Mr. Henderson's goods reasonable in price?-Quite reasonable in price, and good in quality.

13,443. How far is his shop from you?-About six or six and a half miles.

13,444. How far is Grutness from you?-About one and a quarter mile, or a little more.

13,445. How far is Hay & Co.'s shop?-About two and a quarter miles.

13,446. How far is Quendale from you?-I think about four miles.

13,447. Why do you go so far as Mr Henderson's or Aberdeen, or Granton for your supplies?-I opened an account at Mr Henderson's shop, because I could get anything there that I wished, and because Mr. Henderson was highly recommended to me before I came to the country at all.

13,448. Have you found the supplies at Grutness to be expensive?-I never bought much there.

13,449. Did you find that that shop was understood in the neighbourhood to be an expensive one?-I have heard people say so.

13,450. Was that the reason why you did not get your goods there?-Not particularly. One reason was because it was dear, and another reason was that they cannot supply us with general articles such as we want. I thought it was much better to open an account with man who was reasonable in his charges, or who at least was recommended to me as such, and a man who could supply me with anything I wanted.

13,451. What have you bought at Grutness or at the other shops?- Sometimes I have bought small things such as tobacco, but my wife has got most of the things we required.

13,452. Have you bought any tobacco at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes. I found it to be of ordinary quality. I think [Page 335] the price was 4s. 4d. per lb., as far as I can recollect but I am not quite sure, because I never bought much there. I could have got tobacco of about the same quality at Mr. Henderson's for 3s. 6d. I now produce a piece of Mr. Henderson's very good tobacco.,

13,453. Have you bought tobacco at Grutness also?-Only very little. I don't like the sort of tobacco that is kept there. There are two kinds kept at Grutness: but the best quality is too small in twist for smoking, and I don't care about teasing it up.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, LAWRENCE GARRIOCK, examined.

13,454. Are you a fisherman at Scatness?-I am.

13,455. Are you bound to fish for anybody?-No. I have always been at liberty. I am on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, and I generally fish for Hay & Co.

13,456. They are the factors on the estate?-Yes.

13,457. Do you deal at their shop?-Yes, occasionally, when I like.

13,458. Do you pay your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

13,459. Does he come down to settle at Dunrossness every year?- Yes. He settles in a room above the shop at Laighness.

13,460. Do you go through the shop to it?-Yes.

13,461. Have you generally money to receive at settlement?-I have had a little to receive for some years; but I run an account at the shop, and I am almost always in debt.

13,462. If you have got money to receive, is it paid to you in cash?-Yes. I am paid in cash what is due.

13,463. If there is anything due to you, do they ask you, as you come through the shop, if you want any goods?-No, that is left to my own choice.

13,464. But it would be quite fair to ask?-Yes, but they don't do it.

13,465. Are you satisfied with the quality of the goods you get there?-Yes. I never had any reason to complain about the quality, and the price is something similar to what I could get them for at other places.

13,466. At Grutness, for instance?-I never had much dealings there. It lies rather out of my way.

13,467. Is Hay & Co.'s shop the most convenient shop for you?- Yes.

13,468. Have you ever dealt at Gavin Henderson's shop?-Yes, I have tried it too.

13,469. Are not his goods cheaper than Hay & Co.'s?-No; they are much about the same. I could not say there was much difference. I have bought meal, cottons, and tobacco from him, land the difference in price was not worth mentioning.

13,470. Do you keep a pass-book at Hay & Co.'s?-No. I just trust to those who are serving me.

13,471. Were you at a meeting of fishermen held at Scatness a few weeks ago?-I was.

13,472. What was the object of the meeting?-I could scarcely say. The men assembled on purpose to give you (the Commissioner) some information about how they were situated, as you had come to Shetland to inquire into the matter; but when they were met together, they appeared to be frightened to say anything at all. Therefore the meeting was broken up, and every man went home.

13,473. How did it appear that they were frightened?-By the way in which they behaved at the meeting. There was a paper drawn up, and the men were to sign their names to it, but none of them would sign their names except about a dozen or so. The rest appeared to be very much frightened, and I told them so.

13,474. What were they frightened of?-They did not say, at least I did not hear them; but it was supposed they were frightened for the proprietor giving them their warning.

13,475. If they did not say it, how did you know they were frightened for that?-Because none of them would sign their names to the paper which was to be sent to you.

13,476. They might not have had any grievance all?-They might not; but all the men who were present wished to be at liberty to fish, and they were frightened to sign the paper saying that they wanted that. At least they appeared to be so, from not putting down their names.

13,477. Did not some of the men who were present come to Lerwick?-Yes. One man went, and some others went when they were summoned.

13,478. How did you happen to be at the meeting when you were not a bound man?-I went to see whether anything would be said about the right of the landlord to take one-third of the whales which are driven ashore. Occasionally whales are driven in from the sea; and I have seen us commencing at six o'clock on summer morning and working till late in the afternoon, or perhaps six at night, in getting them secured. Then, when the whales were flinched, the proprietor came in and took away one-third of the proceeds, and we were rather dissatisfied about that.

13,479. Do you think you ought to have got the whole?-Yes.

13,480. Did you not flinch the whales upon his shore?-Yes, but below high-water mark.

13,481. Has it not been always the custom in Shetland that the proprietor gets one-third of the blubber?-It has been so all my time.

13,482. Why do you submit that if it is not right?-The way we submit to it is because they have told us that if we carried off all the blubber they would raise the rent of the land we were labouring.

13,483. Who has told you that?-It has been said all my time.

13,484. Has any proprietor ever told you that?-There are men who have asked it and striven for it in my time. I have never done it myself, although I was very much dissatisfied about it: but the poor men are frightened to presume any further, for fear of the land being further burdened upon them, and it is so much burdened just now that we can scarcely pay for it.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ARTHUR IRVINE, examined.

13,485. Are you a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate?-I am.

13,486. You have handed in to me a document signed by 28 fishermen on the Quendale property, stating that 'We, the undersigned, hereby certify that we have been honourably dealt with by Andrew J. Grierson, Esq. of Quendale, our present landlord and fish-merchant; and it is our desire to continue with him as our fish-merchant, and resolve that no other fish-curer in Shetland will get our fish until he refuses to take them?'-Yes.

13,487. How long have you fished for Mr. Grierson?-About 13 years.

13,488. Have you always sold your fish to him?-Yes.

13,489. And have you always got a fair price for them?-I have got the currency of the country.

13,490. Could you have got a higher price anywhere else in the district?-Not in our district, that I know of.

13,491. How far do you live from the place where the fish are delivered?-I live close to it. The curing place is about 50 yards from my house.

13,492. Who wrote this document?-I did.

13,493. When?-Yesterday.

13,494. Did anybody suggest to you to do so?-No. It was done at my own option.

13,495. Did anybody speak to you about it?-No.

13,496. Did you just take it into your own head?-Yes, at six o'clock last night.

[Page 336]

13,497. Did you get all these men to sign it last night?-Some last night, and some this morning on my way here.

13,498. Are they all neighbours of yours, quite close to Quendale?-Yes.

13,499. Were they all quite willing to sign it?-Yes; and more would have signed it if they had been asked.

13,500. You think Mr. Grierson is a very good landlord?-Yes; and we do not want to fish to any other. If there is any one better than him we don't know it.

13,501. Do you think you would not make anything more of it by curing your own fish and selling them to any other merchant?- We cannot cure the fish ourselves on that station, because there is no convenience except for one. There is room for all the boats, but only room for one man. The beaching station cannot be divided. It is not like down about Scatness, where there are so many different places for landing.

13,502. Are you a skipper in one of Mr. Grierson's boats?-Yes, of a six-oared boat.

13,503. Do you ever act as a factor to him?-No.

13,504. Do you receive his fish?-No.

13,505. Do you not hold any employment under Mr. Grierson?- No. I have a bit of ground from him, and I act in looking after his peat-mosses, but that is all the employment I have.

13,506. Do you get a small salary for that?-Yes.

13,507. Do you get all your goods at the Quendale shop?-Yes.

13,508. Do you get paid in money at the end of the year?-Yes; any one who has money to get, has it paid to him at that time.

13,509. Have you always something to receive?-No, some years I have something, and some years not.

13,510. Had you some cash to get last year?-No.

13,511. Were you behind the year before also?-I was not behind for that year, but I had been behind before.

13,512. And there has been a balance against you for good number of years?-Yes, because Mr. Grierson gave me an advance when I first took the land from him.

13,513. Do you think that if you were not bound to fish for Mr. Grierson your rent would be raised?-We think so, but perhaps we my be wrong.

13,514. Has anybody suggested to you that your rents might be raised if you were not going to fish to Mr. Grierson?-No, that is only our own imagination.

13,515. Has Mr. Grierson ever said so?-Not to my knowledge.

13,516. Did you ever hear that he had said so?-No, I never heard that.

13,517. Do you think it would be a reasonable thing for him to raise your rents if you were not fishing for him?-I cannot say; I think our rents are high enough as it is.

13,518. But you are afraid that your rents might be raised, and perhaps that may be the reason for some you having signed that paper?-It may have been, but I cannot say.

13,519. Are the goods which you get at Quendale store of good quality and cheap enough?-They are as cheap as we can get anywhere.

13,520. Have you dealt much anywhere else?-No; I have got most of my goods there.

13,521. Do you know anything about Gavin Henderson's goods?- I know a little about them, and I think they are very much the same as at the Quendale store, both as to price and quality.

13,522. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

13,523. Is there any other person present who wishes to make any statement?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.

.

LERWICK: SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 1872

-MR GUTHRIE.

JAMES POTTINGER, examined.

13,524. Are you a fisherman residing in Burra?-Yes. I live with my father, who is a tenant there.

13,525 I understand you wish to make some statement; what is it about?-It is about the way in which I have been served in Burra. My father and I had to spend upwards of 12 on repairs on the house where we lived about 1865; and in January 1866, when I was in Messrs Hay's employment, they asked me for extra for peat leave, because we put a small chimney in the bedroom end of our house. I refused to pay it, but when Mr. Irvine settled with me he paid me all except the pound, which he kept.

13,526. What employment were you in then?-I had been at Liverpool with a cargo. I was not at the fishing at the time; I was settling up for my voyage to Liverpool at the time when the pound was taken off.

13,527. Had you got any supplies during that winter from Hay & Co.?-I did not have much.

13,528. Had you been in their employment the summer previous?-No; I had been in Messrs Harrison & Son's employment at the Faroe fishing. When Mr. Irvine would not give me the pound I said I would not sign the books, and I have not signed my account yet. The thing ran on from then until last year, when my father was charged 4 for the extra peat leave. He came back to Burra and asked me what he should do, and then he went in again to Lerwick and paid it. Then, this year, I went in to Mr. Irvine and asked him if he was not to take off the pound, and he said he would never take it off; and when my father settled this year again he had to pay it.

13,529. Then that is a charge made upon your father and not upon you?-Yes.

13,530 Is your father the tenant?-He is, but I went in and paid half of the rent and got a receipt for that half; but the pound was not included in it.

13,531. Why was it not charged upon you?-Because he gripped my father for me.

13,532. But why was it not charged upon you first?-Mr. Irvine told me that we were burning two fires in the house, and that I would have to pay that, but I would not do it

13,533. Had you built an addition to the house when you were married?-I was at the expense of building it. It was a new end to the house that was built then.

13,534. Is it a rule that all who live on the island and burn a fire have to pay peat leave?-Every house has the same privilege that I have, but none of them pay it except myself.

13,535. How do you mean that they have the privilege?-They have a small chimney in the bedroom, the other apartment in the house, the same as I have.

13,536. Why do you come to me to complain of that?-I did not think it would do any good, but I thought I would let you know that such a thing was done, because I think it is unfair.

13,537. Has it anything to do with the fishing?-No.

13,538. Were you ever in Messrs. Hay's employment at the fishing?-I was three years in their vessels as a lad, but that is twelve years ago. I have been twelve years in Messrs. Harrison's employment.

[Page 337]

13,539. Did you leave Messrs. Hay and go to Messrs. Harrison?- Yes.

13,540. Did Messrs. Hay object to one of their tenant's sons leaving their employment and going to fish in the smack of another curer?-No.

13,541. Have you been asked to go in Messrs. Hay's smacks since?-Yes. Mr. Irvine asked me to go in their vessels both in 1866 and 1867, in both of which years I had vessels from them in the winter time, but I told Mr. Irvine that I would not leave the vessel or the employ I was in and go with them.

13,542. Was it before or after you were charged that sum for peat leave that you were asked to go?-It was in the same year. 1866 was the first time I had to pay 1 of peat leave.

13,543. But you said you were charged with that in January 1866; was it before or after January 1866 that Mr. Irvine asked you to go in his Faroe vessel?-It was both before and after I went to Liverpool for Messrs. Hay in the 'North Sea Queen.'

13,544. Was it some time after you came back from Liverpool that you were settled with?-No; it was in the same week or the week after.

13,545. Had you seen Mr. Irvine after you came back and before you settled with him?-Yes.

13,546. Was it when you first came back that he asked you to go to Faroe in the following season?-It was at the time when I settled, and also when I joined the vessel.

13,547. Do you think if you had not refused to go in one of Messrs. Hay's vessels to the Faroe fishing you would have been charged with peat leave?-I don't know about that.

13,548. Is the charge for peats just so much for each fire that is burned?-We don't know; it is just included in the rent.

13,549. Is it not charged separately from the rent?-No; it is all put together, so far as I know; it is all called land-rent.

13,550. Have you any note of your settlement with Mr. Irvine in 1866?-No. I don't think I got any receipt then; but I got a receipt yesterday when I paid the half-year's rent.

13,551. I suppose the people in Burra were quite at liberty to go to the Faroe fishing with any person they pleased during the last twelve years?-No, some of them were not at liberty, but I was at liberty because I had charge of a vessel. A single man who was not master of a vessel did not have liberty.

13,552. How do you know that?-Because I have been told of tenants who had to pay 1 in consequence of their sons going to the Faroe fishing. Andrew Laurenson paid 1 for going to Faroe in Messrs. Harrison's employ, and he has not got it back. I don't know any one else who has not got the money back except him; but there may be others who had to pay it, and who have not got it back.

13,553. Were a number of the young men obliged to go to the fishing in Hay & Co.'s vessels?-A good few of them went in their vessels, and some of them left and went in the vessels of other owners.

13,554. But did you know of any man leaving another owner's vessel in which he was engaged, and going in one of Hay & Co.'s because they required him to do so?-No; I only know that money was paid for that.

13,555. Do you understand that if you had not been a master, but had been merely an ordinary seaman, you would have been obliged to go in Messrs. Hay's vessels?-So far as I know, I would.

13,556. Would you have been bound to do so if they had offered you as good a vessel as master as the one you were going in?-I don't think it; I never heard anything about that. I wish to say that I could get turf from another island which would not cost me over one-fourth of the pound which Hay & Co. charged me for peat leave. My father asked Mr. Irvine yesterday whether, if I got the turf in that way, he would take the pound off me, and he said he would not.

13,557. What kind of agreement do you sign with Harrison & Co. when you go to the Faroe fishing?-It is a written agreement.

13,558. I suppose the fishermen in the Faroe fishing regard themselves as partners with the owners of the ship to the extent of one half?-Yes, that is what we sign for.

13,559. The owners of the ship are always the curers that you deliver the fish to?-Yes.

13,560. And I suppose the owners employ men as curers?-Yes.

13,561. The payment which the fishermen get at the end of the year will depend a good deal upon the way in which the fish are cured, because, if they are ill cured, the fishermen will receive less money?-Yes.

13,562. Or if the fish are ill sold the fishermen will also suffer?- Yes.

13,563. Therefore the fishermen have as much interest in the curing and sale of the fish as the owner has?-Yes.

13,564. But I suppose you leave the management of these matters in the hands of the owners?-Yes; the owners have all the management.

13,565. Is it understood in the Faroe fishing that you get one half of the actual returns from the fishing?-They tell us so.

13,566. It is not according to any current price that you get it, but it is one half of the actual price at which the fish are sold which you are to get?-Yes.

13,567. And you trust entirely to the owners to obtain that price, and to account to you for one half of that, under certain deductions?-Yes.

13,568. Do you know what deductions are allowed before the proceeds of the fish are divided?-I cannot tell; I have seen it all in the agreement, but I cannot recollect what it is just now. It is every man's wish to see a bill of sale for their fish at settling time, but such a thing has never been asked for. I have never asked for it so long as I have gone to the fishing.

13,569. You think you ought to see the bill of sale?-Yes; and that is the opinion of all the fishermen, so far as I know.

13,570. Do the men in Harrison & Son's employment undertake to be ready to join the vessel for putting in salt, bending sails, and so forth, at a certain time before the vessel leaves?-Yes, and that is usually done.

13,571. How long are you bound to remain in the vessel?-Until about 13th August.

13,572. On board the vessel, what do you do with the fish when you catch them?-We bleed them, and wash and split them, and salt them in the hold, and generally prepare them so as to fetch the best market.

13,573. The deductions which are charged before dividing the fish are the expenses of curing and the price of the salt?-Yes. They put the salt and curing altogether, and charge 2, 10s. for that.

13,574. They do not charge the actual cost, but make a slump charge for the whole work?-Yes.

13,575. There is also an allowance deducted of 10s. per ton to the master, and 2s. 6d. to the mate?-Yes.

13,576. And the agreement which you sign provides for a certain quantity of bread for each man?-Yes, 8 lbs. of bread per week; and there is an allowance of 9d. for score money. The score money is paid before the division is made, so that one half is paid by the owners and one half by the men themselves.

13,577. Is it also part of the bargain, that the fishermen are liable for breaking lines or spoiling any part of the vessel?-Yes.

13,578. On returning you put the vessel into dock and unbend the sails?-Yes.

13,579. There is a stipulation in the agreement against smuggling, is there not?-Yes.

13,580. Is there any smuggling carried on at Faroe-Not a great deal now.

13,581. Is there any arrangement about going farther north than Faroe if required?-Yes; if the master thinks it prudent to go to Iceland or elsewhere before a certain time, the men are taken bound to go, and in that case they are paid by wages, which are fixed in the agreement. They begin to run from the 13th or [Page 338] the middle of August, and continue till 1st October. But if we are going to Iceland during the summer, the men run their share of the fishing the same as they do at Faroe.

13,582. It is only for a late voyage to Iceland that they get wages?-Yes.

13,583. Do you often go upon these late voyages?-I have done so for the last few years.

13,584. Are the men bound to go upon them?-They are bound to go if the master or owners require them; but there are plenty of men to be got at that period of the year, so that if any man wants his liberty then he can get it.

13,585. You can fill up your crew from other boats which are not going upon these late voyages?-Yes.

13,586. Does the Iceland voyage commence from Foroe, or do you come to from Lerwick first?-We come back to Lerwick.

13,587. There is a scale of victualling for that voyage contained in the agreement?-Yes.

13,588. The men don't provide their own food?-No; it is provided by the owners. The men provide nothing.

13,589. There is a less supply of bread on the Iceland voyage than on the other voyage, is there not?-Very little less. They have 8 lbs. per week in the summer time, and 7 lbs. at Iceland.

13,590. Do you always get ample supplies according to your agreement?-Yes.

13,591. Do you also get your small stores and outfits from the owner's shop?-Yes. We always go to his shop for what we want at leaving.

13,592. Do you also run an account with Messrs. Harrison for supplies to your family during your absence?-Perhaps some of the men do that, but I don't do it. I pay the money for what I want, and get it where it can be got best.

13,593. Do you run no account at all?-Not much. I sometimes run an account for a little with Messrs. Harrison when I want anything,-perhaps in the year, and that is settled at settling time.

13,594. But most of your supplies you get elsewhere-at Scalloway or Lerwick?-Yes.

13,595. Do all the men in your vessel keep accounts at Harrison & Son's, and get their supplies there?-Yes.

13,596. You purchase your own lines and hooks for Faroe?-Yes. A lead of lines for each man will cost about 11s.

13,597. Is that the only fishing expense that you have?-Yes; but perhaps we may have two leads of lines in one summer.

13,598. Do you always purchase them from the owners?-Yes; or they are put on board the vessel, and the men take them as they require them. The master keeps an account of that.

13,599. How do you do on the Iceland voyage for these fishing supplies?-The men pay hire for their lines on the Iceland voyage.

13,600. Then the lines in that case are at the owners risk?-Yes.

13,601. If they are lost, do the owners bear the loss?-The men have to pay for them if they lose them, and if they return them they only pay hire for them.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, recalled.

13,602. You have handed in an agreement for the year 1871 with the crew of the 'Royal Tar?'-Yes.

13,603. Is that the form that is always used by Mr. Leask in agreements for the Faroe fishing?-Perhaps a word or two may vary, but that is the substance of the agreement. It is in this form:

'Royal Tar.' 'We, the undersigned, hereby agree to prosecute the cod and other fishings ,in the said vessel wherever required by the master or owner during the fishing season of 1871, that is, from the time we are requested to join the vessel until the end of August if required, it being understood that one half of the net proceeds of the fishing belong to the owner of the vessel, and the other half to be divided among the crew in the proportions set opposite their respective names; the owner supplying the crew with 1 lb. of bread per man per day.' Then follow the men's names and residences, and their ages, the last ship in which they were employed, their capacity as master, mate, second mate, sharesman, or half, or three-quarter sharesman, as the case may be. In the next column there is given the rate per ton of premium or extra above the share, being 9s. in this case to the master, 3s. 6d. to the mate, and 1s. to the second mate. Then follows the rate of score money to each man, being in this case 6d. throughout. There is also a column for observations, in which it is noted opposite the names of three men, and as much as he is worth; how is that fixed?-It is left to the discretion of the principal men of the vessel.

13,604. Is anything else of importance ever entered in the column for observations?-If anything occurs, of course it will be entered. I may mention that the time when the men generally have to join the ship is about the middle of March. That time is not fixed by the agreement; it is merely said that they have to join when they are requested.

13,605. What do you do about an Iceland voyage?-The Iceland voyage generally commences about the middle of August, after the Faroe voyage is over. The agreement does not refer to that.

13,606. Do they make a separate agreement for an Iceland voyage, the men being paid by wages?-Yes.

13,607. I understand you have something to add to your previous evidence?-Yes. When my examination ceased previously, I think I was speaking about the work-people, and I have now brought one of the time-books to show the proportion of money and of goods received by each. [Produces book.]

13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871 at Sound beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the amount of their accounts for the week.

13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the superintendent.

13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week, and 2s. is the cash he has to get.

13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, showing the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.

13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week, but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.

13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.

13,614. Is that not a sufficient balance for the whole?-I daresay it comes to the same thing as a sufficient balance, only the account is not ruled off.

13,615. Is it done in pencil?-It is done in ink, but it is not ruled off in lines; it is not added up.

13,616. But there is an addition made in the inner column in ink: how is that done?-It is just like any ordinary account, with double money columns. The wages are credited; then the goods stand against them, and the balance is charged, so that the one squares the other.

13,617. Is that done each week?-Yes.

13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?- Always.

13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the work-people.

13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this- [showing]-is the account, a fair average of a [Page 339] week throughout the season?-I think it will be about a fair average.

13,621. It shows 5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned; and of that, 3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week, the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.

13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes, but in others you will find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was paid in cash.

13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of twenty-seven people employed altogether?-Yes.

13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash than the average, because in the following week 2, 9s. 2d. was due, and 1, 1s. 6d. was paid in cash. In another week 4, 12s. 2d. was payable, and 1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week 4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and 1, 4s. 5d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last week which appears in the book 3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and 1, 2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed then also?-Yes; people, of course, require the same amount of provisions, whether they earn much or little, the amount of their balance in cash being less where the work has been less.

13,625. In the Faroe fishing formerly-I am not speaking of Mr. Leask's business only, but of your general knowledge of the country-was it the case that tenants were held under an obligation to fish for particular persons, just as they now are in some places in the ling fishing?-I am not aware of any tenants having been compelled or bound to fish to their proprietor in the Faroe fishing, either now or formerly.

13,626. When was the Faroe fishing introduced into Shetland?-I think about 1851 or 1852.

13,627. Have you known cases in which proprietors or tacksmen attempted to get their ships manned from their estates, not by compulsion, but by persuasion or influence?-I am not aware of any compulsion having been used at all.

13,628. When the Faroe fishing was first introduced, was it not the case that a merchant's smacks were manned for the most part from lands of which he was proprietor or tacksman?-I believe that is quite true, because when a merchant had tenants he invariably got the preference from them; but they were not bound to go to the fishing for him.

13,629. There was not such a demand for places on board Faroe vessels at that time as there is now?-Nothing like it.

13,630. Now the service has become more popular?-Yes; and the number of the ships has increased considerably, so that the number of men required is far greater.

13,631. Is there always an ample supply of men for that fishing?- Not always.

13,632. When men fall short, what means do you adopt to increase the supply? Have you to canvas for men, or do you raise your terms, or what is done?-There is very little difference in the terms. Men have been very scarce this season in consequence of the bad fishing last year, but we have not altered the terms. I remember one year we had to offer wages as an inducement to the men to ship. In 1861 there was a bad fishing, and in 1862 we had to guarantee them 1, 10s. a month of wages; but I don't think fishermen in general like wages.

13,633. Have you ever had recourse to any other means except persuasion to fill up your vessels not except persuasion; but we have not been at a great loss for men. We have generally had as many as we required, until this season. I don't think we will be able to get as many as we require this season, because of the bad fishing last year.

13,634. I suppose the great bulk of the business in Mr. Leask's shop passes through accounts with fishermen and others?-Yes, the great bulk of it.

13,635. When a man pays in cash for the goods he buys, does he get a discount?-No. We price the goods at the very lowest at the commencement, and we don't alter the prices.

13,636. There are not two prices, according as the man pays in cash or takes it out in his account?-No, it is all the same price.

13,637. Then a man has no advantage in paying cash?-None whatever.

13,638. And he is not expected to pay in cash?-Not if he be employed by Mr. Leask. Of course we sell a great quantity of goods for cash to persons whom we don't employ, both in the provision shop and also in the draper.

13,639. In addition to the fish which are delivered in a wet state at your stations, do you purchase dry fish?-Mr. Leask has been in the habit of purchasing ling for a firm in Dublin for many years. He also buys cod in a dry state occasionally.

13,640. Last year, I understand, you bought all the Greenbank fish?-Yes, all the Greenbank ling, not the other.

13,641. And also some from Mossbank?-Yes.

13,642. Did you also buy dry fish from Thomas Williamson, Seafield?-Yes.

13,643. Do you supply Pole, Hoseason, & Co. with goods as wholesale merchants?-No.

13,644. Then these fish would be settled for by cash or bills?- Yes; by cash at three months from the date of shipment.

13,645. Were these ling paid for at the current price-Yes, at 23 per ton, free on board at Mossbank or Cullivoe, the port of shipment.

13,646. The men, I understand, are paid according to the current price of dry fish at the end of the season?-Yes. They get all the advantage that the curer can afford to give them. The price is not fixed at the commencement, and I think it is much better not.

13,647. What was the current price at the end of last season?- 23.

13,648. Is that calculated to afford 8s. per cwt. for green fish?- Yes. In the previous year the price was, I think, 21 for dry fish, and the price allowed for green fish was 7s. 3d. for ling. Of course tusk and cod were much less.

13,649. How would a transaction such as you have mentioned be taken into account in ascertaining the current price at the end of the season? Would you stand in the position towards the curers of a wholesale purchaser?-Exactly.

13,650. Do you think a number of small sales in the course of a season may be able to get a higher price than a large curer who sells all in a lump all the end of the year?-At rare times he may sell a small parcel for a larger price; but generally, I think, the small curers get a less price than we do at the end of the season.

13,651. Would you be surprised to hear that some small curers were able to pay their fishermen much higher prices for ling and all other fish than the larger curers, and that they have done so, in point of fact, for some years back?-Such a thing is quite possible. They may have got more for their fish when dry.

13,652. How would you account for that?-I cannot account for it; it may have happened by accident.

13,653. Do they require less remuneration for their trouble?-No.

13,654. Or does selling in small parcels enable them to get a higher price?-Sometimes it may.

13,655. Do you think they may sell to retail dealers at once, and thus get the advantage of the retail price?-Perhaps they may sell a small parcel at once at a higher price; but, as a rule, I don't think they do. I think a large parcel generally sells best.

13,656. Is not a large parcel sold to parties who themselves supply retail dealers?-Yes.

13,657. But a small dealer, by taking a little more trouble, may possibly sell direct to the retail merchant himself, so that he secures his profit without the intervention of another dealer?-He may.

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13,658. Is that the way in, which you account for him getting a higher price?-That is the only way in which I can account for it.

13,659. The small curers get not only the curer's profit, but they also get the wholesale fish-dealer's profit at times, by selling direct to the retail dealer. Do you think that is a reasonable explanation of the matter?-I think so. It is the only way in which I can account for it, because I know that the large curers pay the utmost they can afford to the men.

13,660. Do you supply Thomas Williamson, Seafield, with goods?-Yes.

13,661. Are these set in the account against the fish which you buy from him?-Yes.

13,662. And that account is settled from time to time?-Yes.

13,663. Is that the only security which Mr. Leask has for his supplies to Williamson?-Yes; in fact he has no security at all until he gets the fish.

13,664. I suppose Mr. Williamson's is a case of man starting business without much capital?-I think so.

13,665. Is Mr. Leask his security with the Commercial Bank?-I know that he became answerable either for an account or for the value of boats, or perhaps for both; but I could not say what he may have done with regard to the Commercial Bank.

13,666. Are you aware that Williamson obtained letter from Mrs. Budge's agent requiring the fishermen on Seafield to fish for him?-I am not aware of that; I never heard of it before.

13,667. You showed me before the correspondence which had taken place between Mr. Leask and Mr. William Jack Williamson. In a letter dated 7th December 1869 Mr. Leask stated that he had directed the fishermen to fish to him (that is, Williamson), and that Williamson had become liable to him (Mr. Leask) for the rents as James Johnston had done: had he done so?-I suppose Mr. Leask simply recommended them to fish for Williamson; he did not direct them.

13,668. But the word used in the letter is 'directed?'-That simply means recommended. Mr. Leask never directed them to fish for Williamson, or to fish at all. They might have gone to the ends of the earth, to the south, or elsewhere, for anything he cared; but when they did fish, I suppose he wished them to fish for Williamson.

13,669. Probably that recommendation would be taken into account in fixing the rent to be paid for Williamson's premises at Ulsta?-It was not. The rent has never been reduced on account of that.

13,670. But it would not be reduced; it would rather be raised, because that would increase the value?-There was no such understanding at all. I deny most positively that Williamson's rent was increased in consequence of the tenants being allowed to fish for him.

13,671. Was Williamson on the property when Mr. Leask bought it?-Yes. Mr. Leask has been at very great expense on Williamson's property, repairing houses, and one thing and another, and very likely he would have raised the rent in consequence of that. I think he paid about 20 one year for improvements, and there were other improvements carried through which cost a great deal of money; and I consider that Mr. Leask was entitled to a percentage upon that.

13,672. Did he get a rise of rent?-I don't know that he did. I am only saying that if he did get it he was entitled to it.

13,673. But is it not reasonable to suppose that man can pay a higher rent for a piece of ground if the fishermen in the district are under an obligation to deliver their fish to him?-He ought certainly to pay more for a monopoly; there is no doubt about that.

13,674. Do you not know whether the rent was altered after Mr. Leask bought the property?-I believe the rents in general were raised a little,-not the whole of them, but a great many of them,-because Mr. Leask has been at a great deal of expense in building new houses, and otherwise.

13,675. Have you any doubt at all that the fact that the fishermen were fishing for Mr. Williamson and Mr. Johnston was taken into account in fixing the amount of their rents?-It had nothing whatever to do with the fixing of the rents.

13,676. Was it merely as a favour to the merchant who occupied the premises that the tenants were directed to fish to him?-Quite so. It was merely a favour to recommend the tenants to fish for him.

13,677. That was no favour to the fishermen, however?-I don't think it was, but it did them no injustice, because I have no doubt Williamson would have paid them the same price as other people.

13,678. Did Williamson become liable to Mr. Leask then for the rents of the fishermen?-No, never. Williamson never became liable for anything but the balance in his hands.

13,679. Mr. Leask's letter states that he had directed the fishermen to fish to him, and that Williamson had become liable to him for the rents, and he complains also that Williamson had not fulfilled that obligation: had he not become liable?-He may have talked about doing so, but he never did so.

13,680. Did he promise to become liable?-He may have promised to become liable, but to the best of my knowledge, he never did so.

13,681. Is it not a very usual, indeed almost a universal, arrangement in Shetland, that some of the fishermen's rents are paid to the proprietor by the fish-merchant to whom his tenants fish?-Yes; I believe that is quite common.

13,682. Is it not very often done by debiting the fishermen with the amount of the rent in the fish-merchant's books, and the fish-merchant handing a cheque to the proprietor for the slump sum of the rents due by his fishermen?-Yes, that is quite common.

13,683. Is it not almost universal?-I believe it is, but in this case it was not done. Williamson simply paid the balance in his hands which was due to the fishermen. When the balance could not pay for the rent, of course Williamson did not make it up.

13,684. He did not pay any rents for fishermen who were not able to pay for themselves?-No.

13,685. But James Johnston had done so, and fulfilled his obligation?-In one or two cases, I believe, Johnston did so. I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was some understanding of that sort.

13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter.

13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?- No; he pays no rents for the men whatever.

13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know, that that is done.

13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor, of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr. Leask's hands to meet it.

13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is given.

13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least they are not uncommon.

13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes.

13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very few.

13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don't remember any order of that kind being given, except one.

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13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton's report, in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have been discharged within about one month or less from the date of their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the 'Esquimaux' in May 1870, and to the crew of the 'Polynia' from Davis Straits in November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19 men, who were discharged within less than a month.

13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more.

13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I don't remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves. Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't believe it.

13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.

13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.

13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of the families?-Yes.

13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; but I don't consider that to be truck at all.

13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the value of the man's fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.

13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.

13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.

13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but goods?-That is their own fault.

13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.

13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think there is any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a rule.

13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have.

13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such advances when they require them?-Of course I don't deny that; but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short.

13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.

13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a better position?-Yes.

13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is selling his butter and milk and cattle.

13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.

13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes; but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to whom he sells his fish.

13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.

13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or almost without capital?-If he gets assistance he may, but it is not possible to do it without assistance. No one can carry on business to any extent without capital.

13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the extent of his business.

13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or money to advance.

13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be got at three or six months' credit, according to arrangement?- Yes.

13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr. Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr. Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means.

13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on credit?-Yes.

13,722. Still it illustrates the possibility of doing these things under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country.

13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton's report which you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his family are also in debt.

13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen's Savings Bank.

13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes.

13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask's, who has accumulated between 100 and 200 within the last few years.

13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don't know what he takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has saved up, I think, about 130 or 140.

13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same way.

13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year; probably they don't allow their accounts to exceed their earnings?-Quite so.

13,730. You don't know about the debts which stand in the books of other merchants?-No.

13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don't believe they are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority among the men.

13,732. What is the next point in the report to which you wish to refer?-I have already proved that the average quantity of ground on the farms of Mr. Leask's estates in Sound and Whiteness is about 12 acres, and not 3 or 4 acres, as Mr. Hamilton alleges, and I produce the rent rolls and plans to show that the rent is under 10s. an acre. In addition to that, in Sound and Whiteness the tenants have the free use of extensive scattald for their sheep and cattle.

13,733. Are the farms divided there?-Yes, they are all divided. In Yell the tenants have an unlimited amount of sheep pasturage, for which they pay 6d. per head per annum.

13,734. Still these estates of Mr. Leask's only form a small portion of the land in Shetland?-Yes; but I believe they may be taken as a fair criterion for the rest.

13,735. Then you would say that this would have been a fair statement if it had run thus: 'These fishermen for the most part also rent small farms of about 10 to 12 acres, paying a rent of about 6 a year?'-Yes; from 5 to 6 a year on the average. The rents range from perhaps 3 to 12, but on an average they may be taken as from 5 to 6. Then I admit that the direct profit from the shipping agency or the commission allowed to the agents is not a sufficient remuneration for the trouble the agents have and the work they have to perform. I also admit that they do make some profit from their customers; and also that many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage; but I explain that in consequence of that the agent is very often sacrificed in the event of a bad voyage, because then a number of the young hands in the Greenland trade are always in debt.

13,736. Is it within your experience that a much smaller number of green hands is now employed in the Greenland fishery than formerly?-Yes, the number is much smaller than it used to be.

13,737. Is that in consequence of the reluctance of the agents to engage green hands who require an outfit?-Yes. The agents do not wish to give 5 or 6 of an advance for outfit to young hands who have only 30s. to get.

13,738. Therefore they single out more experienced hands, who get larger wages and require no outfit?-Yes, that is my experience.

13,739. Has that tendency been very strongly exhibited within the last few years?-It has been very strongly exhibited of late.

13,740. The agents have made a great effort to exclude young hands, and to obtain experienced men?-Yes, and that admittedly in consequence of the risk attending the advances to the young hands.

13,741. Have the masters of the ships concurred in that course of conduct?-They generally do so. So far as the sealing voyage is concerned, they generally prefer to have experienced hands, but in the whaling voyage they may have about one-fifth of young hands.

13,742. Have they complained about the reduction in the number of young hands engaged for these voyages?-I cannot say that they have.

13,743. Are the gentlemen here who act as agents authorized in any way to engage men for ships?-The masters of the ships are invariably present when the men are engaged; indeed they engage the men themselves.

13,744. Then no engagement is made by the agents?-Very seldom, unless in presence of the master.

13,745. Is that in order to comply with the 147th section of the Merchant Shipping Act?-No; it is because the masters prefer to see the men they engage. Two or three years ago, I think in 1869, we engaged about sixty men and sent them to Dundee; but the masters did not like that plan, and preferred to see the men themselves.

13,746. Are you aware that the 147th section of the Merchant Shipping Act provides, that 'if any unauthorized person engages or supplies any mate, seaman, midshipman, or apprentice, to be entered on board any ship in the United Kingdom, he will be liable to be prosecuted; and if convicted, to a penalty of 20 for each offence?' I was not aware of that.

13,747. It is also provided, that 'the only persons authorized to engage or supply mates, seamen, midshipmen, and apprentices, are the following: owner, the master, or the mate of the ship, or some person who is the bona fide servant and in the constant employ of the owner; the superintendent of a Government Mercantile Marine Office, or an agent licensed by the Board of Trade?'-I may mention that Mr. Leask is part owner of most of the vessels for which he acts as agent; indeed of all except one.

13,748. Therefore he would not fall within that clause as you read it?-No; he would not come within that.

13,749. But you say that, in point of fact, the practice here is, that the seamen are engaged by the master of the ship?-They are virtually engaged by the master.

13,750. And what takes place between the men and the agent before that engagement, is merely of the nature of preliminary negotiations?-Quite so; they are all engaged in presence of the shipping master and the master of the vessel, or at least legally engaged. That is the only binding engagement which is made with them; and it is made in presence of the shipping master and the master of the vessel. It frequently happens that we may arrange in Mr. Leask's office with men to go in the ship, and they fail to appear at the Shipping Office; so that the agreement in the office of the agent is not at all binding.

13,751. Do you remember any occasion of the master of a ship objecting to take any man whom you had recommended to him?- I cannot say that I remember that, but it may have occurred. We generally endeavour to get good men; but when men are scarce, we may have been forced to take what men we could get, and these may not have pleased the master altogether.

13,752. Do you remember any occasion on which the master of a ship objected to take the men whom you wished him to take, and suggested that you were asking him to take men who had accounts with you in preference to others?-I don't remember of that; it may have occurred, but I don't think so. I have known us sometimes trying to persuade a master to take a young lad, out of charity; and sometimes he would do so, against his own inclination.

13,753. Mr. Hamilton says, 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents; or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay himself part of the seaman's wages.' Is that so?-I already explained that we never gave allotments.

13,754. He also says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeeper, are practically debarred from doing so?'-I deny that most emphatically.

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13,755. Do you say that a man who obtains an engagement through Mr. Leask or you is quite at liberty to go to any other shopkeeper and obtain his outfit from him?-Yes; he can go wherever he pleases. Every man gets his advance note from the shipping master, or at least in his presence, when he engages.

13,756. Have you never invited any of these men to obtain their outfit at your shop?-We never invited them, but plenty of them have done it.

13,757. Have none of Mr. Leask's people invited them?-No, we never invited them; but they mostly all take a certain amount of goods from us, for all that.

13,758. Do the preliminary negotiations to which you refer generally take place within Mr. Leask's premises?-Yes; but sometimes I have seen it done on board ship.

13,759. Are the same men generally engaged by you for a succession of years, or do they change from one agent to another?-It is not very common for masters to change their men. The men generally stick to one master, and a great number of them stick to one agent; but it is quite common for them to change agents. Mr. Hamilton also says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread.' I deny that entirely.

13,760. I think you told me in your previous examination that no lists were now exchanged between agents?-It was the custom at one time to exchange lists of balances due by seamen, but it is not done now.

13,761. How long is it since that custom ceased?-I have seen very little of it for a number of years.

13,762. Is it half a dozen years ago since it was given up?-Fully that.

13,763. Have you known any case of a man being refused employment in consequence of dealing with another agent for his outfit?-Never. We were always anxious to get hold of good seamen, whether they dealt with us or not.

13,764. Has that never occurred in the case of middling seaman?- No; even then we never objected to take any seaman in consequence of him going elsewhere with his custom.

13,765. Has there been a large supply of seamen during the last few years for the Greenland trade?-They have been about equal to the demand, certainly not more. I think when the ships were all manned last year, the men were done. There may have been few boys left, but the men were done when the ships were done,

13,766. Have you known any case of a man obtaining an engagement through you and getting his outfit from another shop?-I have no doubt there are plenty of cases of that kind, but I could not point to any particular case.

13,767. Do you remember of any such case occurring?-I cannot say that I remember; but I know that there are plenty of our men who buy very little, perhaps only a few shillings' worth, from us when they go.

13,768. But do you know any case of a man in want of an outfit, engaging with you and getting that outfit from another employer?-I cannot point to any such case.

13,769. The cases which you have in your mind, in which the men have bought very little from you, may be the cases of men who have been for many years at the fishing?-Yes, and who did not require an outfit.

13,770. What was the state of the supply and demand in 1870?-I think it was very much the same as in 1871: the supply was just about equal to the demand, but in 1867 the demand was greater than the supply. In March of that year the 'Jan Mayen' had to leave here three or four men short of her complement. In 1868 I think the supply was about equal to the demand, and also in 1869. In the summer of 1869, after the month of May, the supply was fully greater than the demand.

13,771. Were there few vessels going to the whaling that year?- Yes. In May there were some vessels here engaging men, but we had more men that year than ships.

13,772. How did you select your men that year?-The captain selected there.

13,773. Had you no voice in their selection?-I was not present when they were engaged. Mr. Leask and Mr. Andrew Jamieson were present. I refer to the 'Camperdown' and 'Polynia' in May 1869.

13,774. Were these your only whaling vessels that year?-We had more; but I think we had only these two in at that time when the men were so plentiful. With regard to Mr. Hamilton's report, again, I admit there is no time fixed for settlement, but I have already explained that we cannot compel the men to come until they like. I also deny that the men have to give back all the money that they receive. I have shown that we paid 1120, 12s. 3d. to the crew of the 'Camperdown' in 1865.

13,775. Mr. Hamilton does not say that the men had to give back all the money that they received. What he says is, 'The man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That is only that the men who are in debt to the agent in an equal or greater amount have to hand back the money to him?-The idea that is conveyed is, that every man is in that position.

13,776. Do you deny Mr. Hamilton's statement, that 'when the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion of the crew should not be settled at once?'-Yes, I deny that. I say that no man has to ask twice to be settled with.

13,777. That is not the question. Is it to the agent's interest that the settlement should take place at once or not?-If we wish to have as little trouble as possible, it is our interest to settle with the men at once; but if an agent wishes to retain the men's money in his hands for a month or so, it may be a little to his interest then to delay the settlement.

13,778. May there not be a good deal of money his hands belonging to the men?-There may.

13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the settlement on that account.

13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man buys anything after he comes home.

13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business, it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an unscrupulous agent-I don't suppose there are any such here,-the settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are all highly respectable men.

13,782. That is assumed in my question; but I am putting the case of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is not exempt from bad men.

13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for such reasons?-I don't think it could, because, if the settlement is unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the shipping master and complain.

13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping master in order to get it put right?-Yes.

13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton's: 'I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes?'-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But while the men employed are not free agents,'-I deny that,-'however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour,'-I deny that,-'leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' I deny that he has the opportunity of doing that.

13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent. They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of deposits in the banks. I don't think they are an extravagant people at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic, intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found among the same class of people in other parts of the United Kingdom.

13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence, and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?- They don't always do that.

13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That must be so, because they have no other means of doing it.

13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland.

13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one on their behalf when they were away.

13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?- No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they don't remember exactly about a particular article, they will not settle for it until they do remember.

13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes.

13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to refer to certain passages in the previous evidence given before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked, 'Is it a fact, that very little money passes between the proprietor and the fishermen on these occasions?' [that is, at settlement], and he replies, 'It is the fact.' I say that it is not a fact, and I have proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount earned was 86, and the cash paid was 72.

13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under your own observation in Mr. Leask's business?-That is all. Then in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, 'As a rule, are these fishermen in their debt?' and he replies, 'I think very often they are.' Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225, referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr. Smith is asked, 'Are the wages handed over to the agents?' and he replies, 'The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but that is very extensively evaded.' I deny that.

13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about paying wages at the Custom House?-I don't think so. There is no chance of evading it:

13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that, during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping Office of the agents' accounts as well as of the men's accounts.

13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I cannot say as to that.

13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and sometimes in December.

13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent's office.

13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I don't think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr. Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor. That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants of the agent, but I may say that in the 'Camperdown' crew in 1865 only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr. Smith is asked, 'Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?' and he replies, 'I see none, except to save the merchants trouble.' I deny that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble to be going up to the Shipping Office so often.

13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have insisted on that?-They don't require to insist. So far as we are concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with.

13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867 to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however, was previous to 1867.

13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom House did not interfere then at all.

13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?- No.

13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained why we settled there then.

13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to my knowledge.

13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in the agent's office, in the same way and on the same principle as fishermen's accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247, Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, 'They don't know the value of money, and they don't know how to eke it out, or make it last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men's energies are entirely destroyed.' I maintain that the Shetland people know very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or extravagant, but the reverse.

13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may be the case that some men are in debt.

13,809. But you don't know the circumstances of the whole people of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of them.

13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would surprise me.

13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask's tenants and fishermen and seamen.

13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,- and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves.

13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling fishing are of the same class as those with whom you have had dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr. Walker's evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that 60 or 70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth.

13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, 'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' and he replies, 'Not a fraction of it. If a man gets 1 or 2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing.' I deny that most positively, and I have proved it not to be the case.

13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask's tenants in Yell pay 6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d.

13,816. But you don't include the price of the sheep or other expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses, except driving now and then. They don't require to feed them in winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the ground.

13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is ever imported.

13,818. You don't take into account the rent which the tenant pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald.

13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No. Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for tenants.

13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don't know that it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker's, which is so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought from Mr. Leask's tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don't think I need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr. Walker's statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345, 44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372, 44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The statements in Mr. Smith's evidence which I more particularly deny are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245, 44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252.

13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined.

13,822. I believe you are the largest employer in the Faroe trade, and also one of the largest fish-curers in the island?-I am one of the largest: I don't know that I am the largest.

13,823. The previous witness, Mr. William Robertson, has been for a long time in your employment?-Yes.

13,824. He came forward to be examined, I understand, at your suggestion, in order that you, being advanced in years, might not require to do so?-Yes; and he has been more in the habit of settling with the men than I have been myself.

13,825. Have you heard the greater part of his evidence?-I have.

13,826. Do you know it to be correct?-I do.

13,827. You concur in it generally?-Yes. There is only one point on which I would make a remark. With regard to some fishermen getting higher prices than others from small curers, I know there were one or two parties who got more last year, the reason being that there are frequently parties in Scotland who get orders for fish for Australia, and these parties give a higher price than ordinary in order to get good fish, and they are shipped earlier in the season than the bulk of the fish. Last year, also, one or two curers shipped to parties in London at a higher price, and consequently were able to give a higher price to their fishermen; but that was only an exception.

13,828. That would not explain the fact of certain curers paying a higher price every year?-No.

13,829. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE SIMPSON, examined.

13,830. Are you a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I do not wish to give any statement before you at all, [Page 346] because the proprietor may not look well upon me, and perhaps may raise my rent or warn me. My name has been put in to you privately without my knowledge. I did not give it in myself.

13,831. Every one knows that you do not come here of your own free will, but that you have been summoned to come just as you would be summoned as a witness in a court of law. Now that you are here, you are bound to answer the questions which are put to you, and to speak the truth?-I will do so as far as I can, and as far as my memory will enable me.

13,832. Then you are a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I am.

13,833. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman of Lunna?-I believe I am, so far as I can understand.

13,834. You have no liberty to sell your fish to anybody else?- No.

13,835. Was there a meeting held at Lunna about eight or ten years ago, at which Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson were present and told the tenants that they were expected to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I believe there was.

13,836. Were you there?-I don't remember.

13,837. But you knew about it?-I heard that Mr. Bell had delivered the fishing over to Mr. Robertson.

13,838. Was that the reason why you did not want to come forward to-day?-Yes.

13,839. You knew you were bound to fish, and you did not want to say anything to the contrary?-Yes, in case it might affect me in any way with them.