12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may choose a man for themselves.

12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen.

12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money; while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that way, because we don't consider ourselves safe.

12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish, you think you have some security?-Certainly.

12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent, and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at the time.

12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some understanding of that kind, but they are not bound.

12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes.

12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?- Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I would not get them.

12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not much more security for your advances in their case than in the case of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them.

12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts.

12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the men themselves?-Certainly.

12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering.

12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think they do.

12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them, payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think they would rather pay the money to the men themselves.

12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally keep pass-books?-Some of them do.

12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him.

12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in large quantities.

12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have much chance in the circumstances you have already described?- No; they don't have a chance.

12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular thing.

12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No.

12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not been one for some years.

12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?- No.

12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the Sandsting side.

12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that kind?-Yes.

12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they are.

12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a distance?-No.

12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across the counter?-Never.

12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no practice of that kind among us.

12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you know?-I never knew any case of the kind.

12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself, were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that point.

12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily.

12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose, or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years; in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it.

12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most part?-Yes, in cash.

12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is done in cash.

12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way.

12,159. You said it might amount to 50, but the transactions, I suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work.

12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?- Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take them, the same as in any other money transaction.

12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes; with those fishermen to whom we have advanced.

12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to them?-Yes.

12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined.

12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am.

12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk.

12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have.

12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?- It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them whatever.

12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?- Exactly.

12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes.

12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?- Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season. I get no fish in summer.

12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter.

12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?- Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I have made the offer publicly to all the boats.

12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s. more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them.

12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never gave me the fish.

12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?- No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade.

12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes.

12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he would give me his fish.

12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it.

12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No.

12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the season to deliver his fish to another party.

12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes.

12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure their own fish?-In some cases they are.

12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.]

12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they could get.

12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have.

12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as lines, and hooks, and tar.

12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to them.

12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of the larger fishing stations?-Yes.

12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and I look to the skipper to see that I am paid.

12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than an account with one of the men?-Yes.

12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?- Yes.

12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are certain parties that I won't give them to.

12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No. Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they cannot do better.

12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from there as possible.

12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are.

12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is my own opinion.

[Page 300]

12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have.

12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does.

12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish.

12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra.

12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather think he gets a little more.

12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I leave that to you.

12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave that to you to judge.

12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases.

12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before.

12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as Garriock & Co, or any other one.

12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they wanted.

12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes.

12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have.

12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes.

12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient. They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price as they can at Reawick.

12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is about 10 or 12 miles.

12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks.

12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the men want them to go.

12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in that matter?-I think he has.

12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the men can go to whom they please. They are different there from what they are in the Faroe fishing.

12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by barter.

12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.

12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I am.

12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at Tresta?-Yes.

12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away.

12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence of the rough day.

12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up business on your own account?-Yes.

12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as with your own?-Yes.

12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Georgeson to-day?-Yes.

12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I have a grocer's licence.

12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or any other place for them if they choose.

12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for in cash?-Yes, always in cash.

12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given.

12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the fishermen.

12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own boats?-We have no boats fishing to us.

12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?- No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago.

12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and sometimes part from Sandsting.

12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes.

12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-Yes.

12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks, but they are small.

12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes.

12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some, but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply their families during the time they are away. They go principally to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home for a winter.

12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?- Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the voyage.

12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except the personal credit of the men?-None at all.

12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?- Of course they have a little.

12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to where I live.

12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I think there are none of them engaged in it.

12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no ling fishing there at all.

12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have some, but not many.

12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes, generally.

12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as they like. I don't think any compulsion is used.

12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to purchase cured fish?-No.

12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No.

12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I never thought much about it.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined.

12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of Tingwall?-I am.

12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and butter.

12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes.

12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes, generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too.

12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of 1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule.

12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little.

12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and cure them myself.

12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe.

12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then they know what the price is.

12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes.

12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give them that price.

12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with them.

12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes.

12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing then.

12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at all.

12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to fishermen?-Yes, a few.

12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?- Principally in the Faroe fishing.

12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?- None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops of the owners of the vessels they are in.

12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think so.

12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away.

12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may be about forty or fifty of them.

12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings.

12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant for whom they ship?-Yes, generally.

12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would make much difference. It is not very far from our place to Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the people generally are in the town every now and again with hosiery and things of that kind.

12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons.

12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there before they go away.

12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod. There are very few ling caught.

12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until we come to the big size.

12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price. When they come to me they generally take what goods they want, and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash.

12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They know the price before they come with them, and they generally want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the cash.

[Page 302]

12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence of the men.

12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me.

12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is the way in which the thing is done in our quarter.

12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that. It is not carried on to any great extent.

12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps in April or May, and send them south.

12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May.

12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I don't know; the price is very fluctuating.

12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was 23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of.

12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I sent them principally to Leith, and I got about 16 per ton for them on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return.

12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish from would get as much as 5 from you in the course of the winter and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would.

12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would get perhaps 4 or 5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and spring fishing.

12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases more than three-fourths would be paid in cash.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined.

12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am.

12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.

12,295. Is that statement correct?-It is, to the best of my knowledge.

[The witness then handed in the following statement:-]

'I am a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co. general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick.

'Mr. Umphray, the senior of the firm, and myself, are proprietors of land. Mr. Umphray, my younger brother, and I, are joint factors on the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.

'I am trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles.

'Our general store for all sorts of goods is at Reawick. We have, besides, two small shops or general stores, one in the Island of Foula where there are about forty families, and the other at Sandness, where there are about seventy-five families.

'We engage our fishermen and servants from the district of country comprising the parishes of Weisdale, Aithsting, Sandsting, Walls, Sandness, and Foula, with a few from districts beyond Tingwall, Burra, etc.

'We cured last season the fish from ten smacks fishing at Faroe, Iceland, etc., and five smaller vessels prosecuting the fishing in the neighbourhood of our own and the Orkney Islands. There are other owners interested in some of these vessels, but we engaged the crews on shares; and at the end of the season, when the value of the fish was realized, we accounted with owners and men for their proportions. The gross value will be about . . . 4600 0 0 The cost of bait, salt-curing, etc., . . 650 0 0 The cost of biscuit, coals on owners' account, 250 0 0 Proportion paid crew individually, . . 2200 0 0 Proportion paid owners, 1500 0 0 4600 0 0

'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash, under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but they are under no obligation to take such advance from us and can, if they choose buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either for cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of the men can do without advances, having spare money; but the fishing could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, especially as regards the lads in their first and second year.

'In years when the fishing is not remunerative merchants making those advances lose heavily in bad debts.

'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them for 427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and provisions on board, 71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal, etc., to their families, 114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, 239, 17s. The other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, 81, 7s. 11d.; goods, 129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, 374, 13s. 6d. The same crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., 63, 3s. 4d.; goods, 67, 7s.; cash, 198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years as regards our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably more than half their gross shares paid them in cash.

'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to English smacks fishing for us at it contract price-and we derive about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were such a mode attempted it would lead to fixed wages, and would end in loss to both men and owners, and a great falling off in this branch of the fishery.

'BOATS.-About one-fourth of our cure last year was from open boats-six-oared boats at far haaf, and four-oared boats at home haaf. About 63 tons of these are from crews who cure their own fish, and deliver at one time, at the end of the curing season. The remaining 71 tons are delivered fresh every day, as landed at our stations. Those who cure their own fish, whether they have advances of salt, meal, etc., from us or not, are at perfect liberty to treat with and sell to any merchant they can get the best price from when their fish are ready. Their boats and gear are all their own. The understanding about those delivered fresh is, that we pay not less than the current rate of the country. These men, as well as the others, own their boats and gear. The peculiarities of their situation make this mode of delivering in a fresh state a necessity. At two of the stations we receive from in that way; and we prefer it, although the fish should [Page 303] cost us higher than those cured by the men themselves, as we can make a much better article, having skilled men and better appliances. To show that our boat fishers do see more than a pound at settlement, I take the liberty to hand you herewith an abstract of my settlement last and previous month with the men at two stations in Walls, by which it appears that 36 men employed at far haaf, and 34 men at home haaf, had value in fish, 829, 19s. 1d. Our supplies in boats, lines, salt, meal, and other goods, was 29, 0s. 81/2d.; and I paid them in cash 600, 18s. 41/2d. I have not access to some of the station books; but, from an abstract of my last year's settlement at one of these stations, there was placed to credit of the men for fish, work, curing, etc., 655, 0s. 6d., which was thus disposed of: '1st. To account of arrears of advances of meal, etc., from previous years, 71 12 7 '2d. Fishing material, meal, goods, and cash from storekeeper during year, 270 7 2 '3d. Cash at settlement, 313 0 9

'It is not always so; this same island for three years, 1867-69, suffered severely from the crops being blasted, and the fishing of 1868 proving a failure (each fisherman's earnings for the whole year only amounting to about 3). We supplied them with meal during these years, at the end of which they were due us 228, 19s. 9d., besides some arrears of rent to Dr. Scott. All this is now cleared off, unless some three or four individuals; and the more provident have a good few pounds saved.

'In settling with our men, the whole crew, both as respects smacks and boats, are brought in together, and the statement of the division is gone over carefully. Afterwards each man comes separately, and every item of his account read over, or if a pass-book is kept (which is very common) it is made up. Copies of the account are given in every case when desired. I think our men are perfectly satisfied with the present system.

'The tenants on the Melby estate are perfectly free to earn their living as they choose; and it is the same as regards Mr. Umphray's tenants (who number 75) and my own. On going over the roll of Mr. Umphray's tenants, I observe there are only 17 fishing to my firm (some of them only part of the season), and of my tenants only 4.

'It is the exception, not the rule, for our fishermen to be in debt to us. Of the 70 men representing the sixteen crews of which I have given particulars, all had money to get, with the exception of six, who are due us balances to the amount of 33, 2s.

'We employed last year 40 beach boys, from 13 to 17 years of age. All had cash to get at settlement, and none are in advance on the coming season.

'HOSIERY.-We take hosiery in barter for any sort of goods required, including meal and provisions. We have found this branch of trade uniformly a losing one but it is convenient for our customers-families who occupy their spare time from farm work in knitting plain articles-to get such exchanged; and it would put them much about if we were to give it up, being so far from Lerwick, and the neighbouring country shops only taking such things as they have an outlet for. A good many of the girls go to town, perhaps once in the year, with their hosiery.

'EGGS.-We take in eggs in the same way, but pay cash readily when asked.

'We have only one price in our stores for goods, whether sold for cash or barter.

'My firm has no separate account for the wife, and with other members of the family, unless when such are working or fishing for themselves.'

12,296. You say in your statement that Mr. Umphray and yourself are proprietors of land: is that in the district in which your business is carried on?-Mr. Umphray is a proprietor of land there. His rental is somewhere between 300 and 400, and the number of his tenants is between 70 and 80.

12,297. What is the rental and the number of tenants on the Melby estate?-The rental is about 1200, and there are nearly 300 tenants; but I cannot give the exact number.

12,298. Do most of the tenants on these estates fish for you in summer?-There are more of them who fish for us than for any other.

12,299. Do you think all who are engaged in the ling fishing fish for you?-By no means; but I should say that fully three-fourths of them do.

12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott.

12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him.

12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted in it.

12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No; there were two or three years to run of the old lease.

12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it had been granted some years before.

12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes.

12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every householder is bound to pay 1 sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the terms on which they were to occupy under them.

12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the money had been paid.

12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869.

12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs. Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of 1. That was the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not trace any case in which the money had been paid.

12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish.

[Page 304]

12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people were getting fully as much as any other fishermen.

12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded statement altogether.

12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands, and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where they chose.

12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up.

12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out, that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such. Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they could not prevent them.

12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs. Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?- That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know.

12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave 1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue.

12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s. per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869.

12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer.

12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time.

12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for 1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must have been some time before.

12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they got very few. They were not fished to any great extent.

12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent, that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce.

12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island.

12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I refer to.

12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so closely as that.

12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour.

12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No, nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented from doing so, and I approved of that.

12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least.

12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of the letter by the people themselves.

12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people, when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition.

12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of selling them there.

12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and meeting the people.

12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort. I found that the people would much rather not have been under a lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself.

12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for the island on the whole.

12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether free, and to be able to deal as he chose.

[Page 305]

12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not much to complain of.

12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of it.

12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No. The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years.

12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and that they did not have much profit by the island.

12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?- I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of the produce of the island that they had anything to do with.

12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly to the proprietors?-Half-yearly.

12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only once a year?-Yes, they pay in November.

12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for that purpose.

12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera, or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants.

12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I know they do not interfere with them in that way.

12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me.

12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a restriction?-Certainly.

12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and account to the ladies for the residue.

12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't think that would be any particular benefit to them.

12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops.

12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the custom of the island.

12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom very much.

12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops and in Lerwick.

12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not on the island, but elsewhere.

12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them, because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants they fish to.

12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we have two or three.

12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that to be a fact, from various circumstances.

12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow.

12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly.

12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that much more than one half of their dealings must be with other people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island, and including those men who go to Faroe.

12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe fishing than in any other.

12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing more readily than others.

12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district that I know of in Shetland.

12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?- Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland.

12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with it?-Nothing whatever.

12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes, they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their fish to Messrs, Hay.

12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes.

12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?- Yes; there is no other store near.

12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?- No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men get the whole of their supplies from our stores there.

12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within reach of the fishermen residing there?-No.

12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in either of these districts if we could help it.

12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that.

12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies they are in need of.

12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole of them, but many of them do.

12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not done that lately. They could have no object in going there.

12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do. Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere.

12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather.

12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of their business?-They may go where they choose.

12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it, and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men.

[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in the affirmative by 65 men:-

'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated position of the island appears to require that one system be followed by all.

'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.']

12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created

great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they would be left to their own resources.

12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the islanders?-Yes, we went on as before.

12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years.

12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which.

12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago.

12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.

12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at Reawick.

12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within reach?-Yes.

12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with many people in the neighbourhood of other shops.

12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I have mentioned in my statement, that of 829, 19s. 1d., which was the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at all.

12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of supplies from you?-Yes.

12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland, the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal where they choose.

12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We might; but I would not consider it fair to do so.

12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know. I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose, since we had anything to do with them, and we were always prepared to pay them for their fish in money.

12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than one half of their earnings in money.

12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?- I don't think so.

12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they please.

12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are.

12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they have offers every year.

12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do. We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters, and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men the benefit of the highest price going.

12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case of that sort.

12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale offered the men this year 21 [Page 307] for their ling if they would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands without the price being stated, and we paid them 22 for the same fish.

12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price for ling was 23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities.

12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby.

12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never.

12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect freedom to fish where they chose.

12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them, especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years, are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes.

12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes, but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies.

12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if they make a fishing.

12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do.

12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who is in the book with balance against him.

12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly.

12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that.

12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and they are written out each year.

12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much.

12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their stipulation with us.

12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish, and account for them to the men.

12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the season is concerned?-Of course they do.

12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the men for the current price.

12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is expressed in our agreement, but it is understood.

12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price, we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end of the season.

12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them.

12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867. The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only got a small compromise.

12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them. We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men, under the terms of the agreement.

12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state anything about a loss.

12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes.

12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No, we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all.

12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages, but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into.

12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing: one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the statement I have produced.

12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said, would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed.

12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish, and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of that, I think, in more cases than one.

12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have. Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay them in cash if they wish it so.

12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could always sell for cash at any season if they chose.

12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a safe price that they would not sell them.

12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash if they chose, and they have probably paid some.

12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price. They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected.

12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in curing?-It is with us.

12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have meal to live upon, at any rate.

12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of the season?-Yes.

12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season.

12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed.

12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the work is going on, but never goods.

12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the contractor requires some money to pay the people who are working for him, he comes for it himself.

12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely: we have nothing to do with the parties under him.

12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have extra hands on when there is much to do.

12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of that kind, I daresay.

12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in cash, and they are made every week or ten days.

12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for the people employed among the fish.

12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give them goods. They get their money when their work is done every week, or at all events within the fortnight.

12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No, not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before sometimes get some money.

12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they don't require it.

12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the shops in Scalloway.

12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I don't think they do that.

12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the kind.

12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops.

12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit.

12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the money over to the people themselves, and if they have run accounts they have to go themselves and pay them.

12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes.

12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready money?-I cannot say.

12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad custom.

12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency in that way.

12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only reason why we have anything to do with it.

12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes. When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance with it.

12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes.

12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away.

12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it.

12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He pays a trifle; it is not much.

12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks.

12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in that business?-Yes.

12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve.

12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five vessels?-They would average nine hands.

12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?- For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August. The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals.

12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.]

12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are on when we engage them.

12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach boys?-Yes.

12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no married women employed in any branch of our business.

12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day.

12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will be improved

12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier is the weather.

12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of boats than they have.

12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the winter?-No.

12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good and bad weather.

12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would not pay.

12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be because there was not enough good weather, and the men would not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid occasionally.

12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes, several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe; but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally continued, the fishing is so precarious.

12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many men to go to it.

12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is.

12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes.

12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of the fishing grounds.

12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these vessels.

12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides.

12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed. It has always been discontinued.

12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?- Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all.

12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?- Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling.

12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?- I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at one time.

12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the tenant.

12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is 1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr. Umphray is the chairman of the Board.

12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road.

12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think six or eight years, or more than that.

12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe, he has paid them at his own house.

12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson.

12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so far as I know.

12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his (Wallace's) house.

12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes.

12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their money.

12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on.

12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance from where I live.

12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer clothing. I think that is the only difference.

12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade regulations were issued.

12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are taken for these voyages.

12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes. They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men, bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant service; but now it is not, and cannot be.

12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there used to be.

12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but I should suppose it was very likely to have happened.

12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going there.

12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an outfit?-No, I cannot.

12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one.

12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or 20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they had nothing for clothing.

12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on making inquiry I found that that was the reason.

12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board of Trade regulations.

12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that.

12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited.

12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit, and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is.

12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could have got that information from.

12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women, because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a husband and wife.

12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share and having his own account.

12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions which he had formed when he was a boy.