11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for oil-money?-Invariably.

11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In the agent's office now.

11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?- Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of labour.

11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes due?-No.

11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it becomes due?-Yes, a short time after.

11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be a few cases of that kind, but very few.

11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes.

11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies after they engage.

11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money has been paid?-That account has been previously settled.

11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year, he gets it besides.

11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will trust him with it.

11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him.

11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money.

11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office, stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided the men go in the ship.

11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance note we will cash it afterwards.

11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of his advance note?-If he wishes it.

11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he receives, and he gives us back the advance note.

11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires.

11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often, and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and after he re-engages he gets his advance.

11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things are kept in one account.

11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered.

11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so; but we don't mark down anything that is paid for.

11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them.

11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very often.

11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so receiving from you?-Very often.

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11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money; and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault.

11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or cheaper than they could get them elsewhere.

11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment of 30s. or 2 being made to him at the same time, on account of his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept, and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office, may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does.

11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his money there and then?-I have no doubt he does.

11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now at any rate.

11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?'

11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages in 1865, which shows a total of 1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the end, of 1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of 416, 18s. for goods sold?-Yes.

11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should say that it does.

11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the whaling?-For most of the vessels it was.

11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the men?-They were above the average.

11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They bought more than they otherwise would or could have done.

11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a considerable sum of money.

11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great portion, of the accounts were contracted.

11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted.

11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the case I have given.

11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other book we have got.

11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account, and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at the Shipping Office.

11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you for goods?-No, not if they were in debt.

11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally.

11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the whaling trade.

11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash, although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very accommodating in the way of giving advances.

11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the sums which have been received by the men before the shipping master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course, increases the account against the men, which they have to pay after receiving their money before the shipping master.

11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can guess it to be and I have a very good idea.

11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably. They don't require to be asked to do so.

11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last 3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole.

11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping Office at all

11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your office and settled with you immediately after they had received their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that man came on the same day also after some reflection.

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11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes, we adhere to the same form that we used before.

11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement before the shipping master.

11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all.

11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No.

11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes. I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with more if they had come forward.

11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay their debts.

11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is due.

11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?- It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town.

11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All that were there at the time went before the superintendent.

11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be eight or ten, and sometimes only one.

11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they come of themselves.

11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think every is indebted to some shopkeeper.

11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing.

11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is opened for the children when we are employing them.

11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of money.

11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these transactions?-No.

11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them.

11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it in that way for goods?-Yes.

11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't keep separate accounts with a man and his wife.

11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods, and very often they have nothing to give for them except their hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great disadvantage.

11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a family when they are in your employment?-I should not call them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing.

11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether, including persons of 12 to upwards of 50.

11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are employed for about five months in the year, from May to December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly. They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July, August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish.

11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday.

11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman working among the fish, or for a strong boy.

11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and Saturday evening is the pay.

11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they could not live without them.

11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our work-book.

11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with what provisions they get.

11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each person?-Yes.

11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening, except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and don't balance at all until the end of the season.

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11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season, may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check. We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than having accounts.

11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it because the people cannot live without supplies as a general rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions.

11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have accounts?-Yes.

11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing establishments?-No; there are a good many employed incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only those of the people are employed most regularly.

11,248. How are these people paid who are employed incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods. The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid.

11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what their wages are to be.

11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and we prefer that they should not take any.

11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very often.

11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s. perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less.

11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we have had to refuse goods.

11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we don't wish them to take all in goods.

11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a case we don't pay them the money.

11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week, how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if they choose to take goods, that is their own fault.

11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some cases.

11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive.

11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many cases.

11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop.

11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can get the best value.

11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are very few under fifteen; think only two or three.

11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?- Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have very few boys.

11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit accounts with you?-Yes.

11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes, men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all grown-up lads, except two or three young boys.

11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid monthly.

11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it.

11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe last year. He did not have so many in previous years.

11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as agent for other two.

11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread per day.

11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and stores.

11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship, equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea, coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel.

11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure one ton of fish.

11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread, ballast, and so on.

11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the vessel has returned.

11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as outfitter?-Yes.

11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?- Yes.

11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle, how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of course, get all the money due to them.

11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year.

11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half: that goes to the owner?-Yes.

11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen.

11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called shares-men?-Yes.

11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to their quality.

11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is ascertained at the time when he leaves.

11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men, deducted from their own account, or from the account of the crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account; each man has his own account, separate from the account of the crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf of the company, and then everything else is put into the account for the men.

11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually, showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of various things?-Yes.

11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in the book.

11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is made up.

11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows 481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes.

11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the charges?-Yes.

11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry fish, 70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt.

11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish were at Whiteness and had to be brought here.

11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.; but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they had 6s. 3d. each.

11,294. That was 8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes.

11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to 2, 2s. 3d., and then the score money is charged at 24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?- The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number of scores each has taken.

11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland 6, and Faroe 5, 2s. 8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here and at Faroe.

11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes.

11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains 347, 14s. 7d., the vessel's proportion of which is 173, 17s. 4d., and the rest is divided among the crew according to their different shares?- Yes.

11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as 55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate.

11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall be deducted.

11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one half of the net proceeds of the speculation.

11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing, never in printing.

11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral agreement, not a legal one at all.

11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of Trade.

11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years.

11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements.

.

SCALLOWAY; TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 1872

GILBERT TULLOCH, examined.

11,307. Are you the shopkeeper at Scalloway for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I am.

11,308. They have a curing establishment here, and buy a quantity of fish?-Yes.

11,309. They also have a shop in which goods of all descriptions are sold?-Yes, all that are generally sold to fishermen.

11,310. Have you the entire management of their business here?- Yes.

11,311. You take delivery of the fish from the men, and enter the quantities received in the fishing book?-I settle with the men for the fish as I receive them, and I charge the amount against my employers.

11,312. You are now speaking of the winter fishing?-Yes.

11,313. In that fishing each transaction is separate and distinct?- Yes. The men are paid over the counter as they deliver the fish, for all that we purchase in Scalloway. They don't go into any account at all. Where the fish are delivered at other places, they are settled for at Lerwick.

11,314. Then with the regular summer fishing you have nothing to do?-No; Messrs. Hay have curers at the islands for that.

[Page 278]

11,315. They have factors at Burra and other places who receive the fish, and the settlement for them takes place at Lerwick?- Yes.

11,316. Your duties consist in managing the business the shop, and selling the goods there, and in purchasing fish or oil which the men voluntarily bring to you?-Yes.

11,317. You have nothing to do with the men who are engaged to fish in the home fishing?-Nothing.

11,318. When you take delivery of a quantity of fish from the men, is no part of that entered in your books?-If the men have taken up advances before, then these enter the books; and that is done occasionally.

11,319. But when it does enter your books, it is entered as a separate transaction at the time in the fisherman's account in the ledger?-Yes.

11,320. That is to say, you have a ledger for the shop transactions in which each man has an account?-Yes; and if he wishes any part of his fish to go to his account, to help in clearing it off, I enter it there.

11,321. But when you put it to his account, the quantity of fish delivered at the particular time is stated, with the price, and the sum is put into the money column?-Yes.

11,322. Have you many transactions of that kind with the men at Burra?-Yes; principally in winter.

11,323. In spring and summer do they sometimes come to you with fish?-They deliver them at the stations, and they are settled for at Lerwick, with Messrs. Hay.

11,324. But do they sometimes endeavour to carry out transaction with you for ready money or for goods?-Occasionally; when they require it, they will come to us with a few fish, to get groceries or any things they want. They are not prohibited from doing that if they wish it.

11,325. Messrs. Hay do not forbid them, when they are engaged for the season, to come to you for any supplies they may want, and to give their fish in exchange?-That is not forbidden, so far as I am aware.

11,326. And in these transactions with fishermen, from whatever place they come, is the payment generally made in goods or in money?-Part in both. They get what goods they want, and their balance is paid in cash. I cannot say that more is paid in goods or in cash.

11,327. Is not the great bulk of the fish paid for by out-takes?- Generally.

11,328. About how many men are entered in your ledger with whom you deal in that way?-I could not say exactly. They come from different places, and could not state the exact number.

11,329. They are not merely the men who are employed by Messrs. Hay for the summer fishing, but many others besides?- Yes.

11,330. Will you have 100 of these accounts in your ledger?-I could not say exactly.

11,331. Is there it separate ledger kept for the Burra men?-Yes.

11,332. Do they keep all their accounts here?-They keep accounts with me for all their dealings here, but they deal both here and in Lerwick.

11,333. In what season of the year do you make settlement with the men who have accounts in the way you have described?-The Burra men all settle at Lerwick. They only get their advances from me, and they settle at the end of the year with my employers.

11,334. Is a note of their advances handed in to Lerwick?-Yes.

11,335. Do you settle here with others than Burra men who deal with you?-No; they are all settled with at Lerwick. The whole of the accounts are settled there, unless any man wishes to pay any provisions he has had himself. He has it in his option to pay these things to me if he likes; but that is only done in very rare cases.

11,336. Do you sometimes pay money for fish here?-Sometimes.

11,337. In what cases does that occur?-In the case of it neutral man who is not connected with the Lerwick business.

11,338. Then it is only the men who are in the regular employment of Messrs. Hay who settle at Lerwick?-Yes.

11,339. When you have a customer who fishes independently, or for another firm, and who runs an account in your book, he settles with you here?-Yes. He keeps an account with me, and I settle with him.

11,340. At what season of the year is that done?-It is generally at the end of the year, at the usual settling time in Shetland.

11,341. How many men of that description do you suppose there may be in your books,-men who either sell their own fish all the year round, or sell their fish to you cured?-There are very few of them.

11,342. Most of your customers are in the regular employment of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

11,343. And most of them, I suppose, including the Burra men, are bound by agreement for the year to deliver their fish to that firm?-They are not bound by agreement, so far as I know.

11,344. But they are engaged for the summer to fish for the firm, in the boats of Messrs. Hay?-They are.

11,345. The bulk of the accounts kept in your shop will be with such men?-Yes.

11,346. You were not asked to bring your books?-No.

11,347. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash you pay to these few men with whom you settle here?-I could not give an exact account of it. I have bought about 100 worth of fish, ling and cod, since May last up to this date.

11,348. Are you the largest purchaser of fish in that way in Scalloway?-I could not say; there are other fish-buyers here.

11,349. There are other parties who buy fish in the same way, and some other parties who employ boats of their own for the summer fishing?-There are a few, but not many.

11,350. Mr. Nicholson has some?-Yes.

11,351. And Mr. Tait has one?-I suppose he has but he does not do much in that way.

11,352. Is the amount you have stated the ordinary amount which you purchase during the same period each year?-It is sometimes more and sometimes less. It just depends on the success of the fishing.

11,353. How much of that would be purchased in the summer and autumn?-Not much in the summer. The greater part will be purchased in winter.

11,354. In summer the men are delivering their fish at Burra, so that less fish are brought to you at that time?-Yes.

11,355. Are your supplies of goods got from Lerwick from Messrs. Hay?-Some come from Lerwick, and some come direct from the south.

11,356. Are they invoiced to you at wholesale price, or at the price at which you are expected to sell them?-They are invoiced at the wholesale price and I fix the retail price myself.

11,357 What price do you pay for fish to the neutral man who brings them to you in that way?-It is not always the same; sometimes it is more and sometimes less.

11,358. What has been the price this season?-It depends upon the size of the fish we get. For ling and large cod I paid 6s. a cwt up to the commencement of this year, and since then I have paid 7s.

11,359. Do you generally pay that in money?-No; part in goods, and part in money.

11,360. Do your books show in what proportion the payments consist of money, and in what proportion of goods?-We keep no account of what is paid directly over the counter. I charge my employers with the amount of fish which I purchase from these men, and settle with the men at once as I get them.

11,361. Are the fish brought to the counter?-No, they are weighed in the store. There are people there for that purpose.

11,362. When you are weighing them and taking delivery of them, do you ask the man what he wants?-Yes. He gets whatever goods he wants.

11,363. Then when you have taken delivery you go with him to the shop, and give him either goods or money?-Yes; we give him the goods, and then the balance in cash.

[Page 279]

11,364. If it is not convenient for you to go yourself, suppose you have a shopman who will act in the shop in your stead?-We have a man for weighing, the fish, and he comes up with the account of the fish he has got, and then we settle with the men according to the weight which he gives in to us.

11,365. Does the man who takes in the fish enter their weight in any book at the time?-No; he marks it down upon a board, or anything, and comes up to the shop as soon as he has weighed for a boat's crew, and gives in the weight. We enter that in our book, and pay the price to the men.

11,366. Does the man who weighs the fish always come up to the shop?-Yes.

11,367. He does not send a note of the weight he always comes himself?-No, he always comes himself.

11,368. Do you ever pay the price altogether in cash-Sometimes; if the men want no goods we pay it in cash.

11,369. Is that a usual thing?-It is not usual; but sometimes it is the case.

11,370. Is there any particular reason for paying it all in cash when that is done?-If the party wants no goods, then he gets the cash.

11,371. Or if he wants the cash for any particular purpose?-Yes.

11,372. I suppose he will generally tell you if he wants the cash for any particular reason?-Sometimes he does.

11,373. And you make no objection to giving it to him?-No, not if he wants it.

11,374. Do you give him the same price in cash as in goods?- Quite the same; it makes no difference; we have a fixed price.

11,375. Is it entirely in the choice of the men whether they take goods or cash?-Yes.

11,376. But is it not part of the system that the payment is for the most part taken in goods?-That depends upon the parties themselves.

11,377. Do you mean to say, that if the fishermen were all to combine and ask for their payment in cash, they would get it, or would that necessitate any change in your system of carrying on business?-I suppose they would get it; but we might not have enough cash to pay out such large sums as that. We are not near any bank, and we might not have sufficient cash in hand for all that we required, if the payment was wholly in cash.

11,378. Would you find it inconvenient to pay for these fish altogether in cash?-Yes, unless my employers were to give me sufficient cash to meet their demands.

11,379. Your arrangements are made upon the footing, I suppose, that the bulk of the payments are to be taken in goods?-That is understood, although there is no arrangement made about it.

11,380. There is no arrangement made with the men, but it is understood that a great proportion of the transactions are to be settled for in goods?-If the men get as good articles from us as they can get from any other party, I don't see why they should not take payments in that way.

11,381. It might very well happen, I suppose, that even if you did pay in cash, the man would take his cash and spend it at your shop?-Yes; and sometimes that is done.

11,382. But, in point of fact, your business arrangements are made upon the footing that the great amount of the fish sales are to be paid for in goods?-There is no arrangement at all.

11,383. But your own business arrangements are made on that footing? You don't keep a sufficient supply of cash to meet the requirements of a ready-money trade?-No, that has not been the practice.

11,384. Then is it not an exceptional case, and a mere favour to the fisherman, to pay him in money?-It is in his own option to take either goods or money. If he wants the goods he gets them, and if not we pay him in cash.

11,385. But is it not the case that a man is not paid in cash unless he expressly asks for it?-He is not paid in cash unless he wishes it. He gets whatever goods he requires, and the balance is paid over to him in cash.

11,386. The first thing settled between you, after fixing the price, is what goods the man is to take?-Yes.

11,387. And after that, if there is any balance over, it is paid to him in cash?-Yes.

11,388. But, as a rule, he takes out his goods first?-Yes.

11,389. Do you suppose that three-fourths of the value of the fish sold are paid for in goods?-I could hardly say. We never keep any account of that.

11,390. What is the usual quantity of fish brought to you at one time in winter from one boat?-It varies very much.

11,391. Will it be two or three cwts.?-Sometimes more, and sometimes less.

11,392. Would five cwt. be a good catch for it day in winter?- Yes, it would be a good catch.

11,393. Are there many ling caught in winter?-Not many. There are very few tusk caught then. They are chiefly cod, and some ling. There are three classes of cod. There is a large class, and a small class, and a middle size, and the price is different. The price for small cod is now 5s. per cwt., but the large cod that can be sent to Spain are always paid for higher. The price for them is 7s. now.

11,394. Suppose a man were bringing five cwt. of cod to you, he would get, I suppose, about 30s. for it, if it were equally composed of large and small cod?-Yes. That would be divided among the men in the boat,-say three or four men.

11,395. That would be about 7s. 6d. each?-Yes, supposing the price to be at the rate you have mentioned.

11,396. Would it be usual for the man to get the whole of that 7s. 6d. in goods?-That would depend upon himself. Perhaps he might require two-thirds of it in goods, and the other third in cash.

11,397. Would 2s. 6d. be about the largest sum would get in money upon such a catch of fish?-It might be more or less.

11,398. But he would sometimes get it all in goods, I suppose?- Sometimes.

11,399. Do you remember any case in which he got it all in cash?-There have been several cases of that kind. I was looking in the shop books before I came here, and I picked up some papers in the shop showing how much cash they get. [The witness handed in papers containing the following accounts:-

.

11s. 71/2d. Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., 0 1 61/2 Loaf, 4d.; sugar, 11/2d. 0 0 51/2 Soap, 21/2d., sulphur, 11/2d., 0 0 4 Soda, 11/2d.; cotton, 1s. 6d. 0 1 71/2 Cotton, 0 0 3 Porter, 5d.; biscuit, 3d.; cash, 6s. 9d., 0 7 5 0 11 71/2

. 11s. 71/2d. Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 61/2d.; 0 1 101/2 Tobacco, 8d.; oatmeal, 1s. 3d., 0 1 11 Soap, 21/2d.; sund. 51/2d., 0 0 8 Cotton, 11d., 0 0 11 0 5 41/2 Cash, 0 6 3 0 11 71/2

. 8s. 3d. Tobacco, 0 1 0 Tea, 0 0 8 Cash, 0 6 7 0 8 3

[Page 280]

. 8s. 3d. Oatmeal, 1s. 101/2d.; tobacco, 6d. 0 2 41/2 Stamps. 2d.; paper, 21/2d., 0 0 41/2 Soap and sod, 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., 0 0 61/2 Shoe-brush, 6d, 0 0 6 Handkf., 10d.; loaf, 4d.; syrup, 3d., 0 1 5 Soda and thd., 11/2d. 0 0 11/2 Acct., 1s.; cash, 1s. 11d., 0 2 11

. 17s. 5d. Rum, 6d.; cash, 1s., 0 1 6 Do. 9d.; tea, 1s. 2d., 0 1 11 Tea, 1s. 2d.; sugar, 6d., 0 1 8 0 5 1 Cash, . . 0 12 4 0 17 5]

These are notes made at the time when the settlement was made with the men.

11,400. Do you remember when these settlements took place?- No. I merely found these papers in the shop, and brought them here. It may have been about three or four weeks ago, or it may have been longer.

11,401. Has there not been a much larger amount of cash paid in these cases than is usual in such transactions?-It is larger than in some cases.

11,402. And you might have found other slips or notes in which the whole amount was taken out in goods?-I don't know about that. But that is the way in which we settle, and the fish are afterwards charged to my employers.

11,403. Is it not often the case that there is not more than 1s. paid in cash on a transaction of 8s. or 10s.?-Sometimes that is the case.

11,404. Is it not oftener under 1s. than over it?-I could hardly say about that.

11,405. Is it not oftener under 1s. 6d. than over it?-I should say that it is.

11,406. Can you say that, in half the cases that occur, there is a cash balance paid at all?-No. I would not say that there was so little cash paid as that.

11,407. But you could not say to the contrary?-I could not say either the one way or the other.

11,408. In the case of a separate and distinct sale of fish, such as we have been speaking of, the price is paid in full, and there are no deductions of any kind to be made?-None.

11,409. The boats and the lines are the men's?-Yes, unless some of them may have got credit for their boats and lines.

11,410. Do you hire out boats for the winter fishing?-No; the men have boats of their own.

11,411. But they may have got the lines at your shop, and they may be standing against them there?-Yes, either standing against them, or they may have settled for them with Hay & Co.

11,412. In that case you may retain the price of the winter fish to meet the price of the lines or boat?-Yes, if the men wish that to be done.

11,413. Or if you have a heavy debt against the men, you may retain the price of the fish whether the men choose or not?-That is never done by me.

11,414. Has there never been an arrangement or understanding by which a portion of the fish delivered to you in that way is retained on account of the lines or boats supplied to the men?-No, not in winter.

11,415. Have either you or Messrs. Hay & Co. any interest at all in the boats used in the winter or spring fishing?-I have none. I have only a share of one herring boat. I receive a salary from Messrs. Hay.

11,416. Have Messrs. Hay any interest in the boats used in the winter fishing?-No; the boats belong to the men, and they have them on their own account.

11,417. Have you an interest in several of the boats engaged in the summer fishing?-No. As I have said, I have only one share of a herring boat.

11,418. You have no share in any of the smacks that go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

11,419. Are you not part-owner of some boats employed in the summer fishing?-No.

11,420. Were you ever so?-No. I have never had any share of any boat except the herring boat that I have a share in now.

11,421. Have you the management of Messrs. Hay's curing establishment here?-Yes.

11,422. There is a large curing establishment here, with beaches?-Yes.

11,423. How many people are employed there in the fishing season?-It depends on the success of the fishing in the summer, and the amount of fish we get.

11,424. How many were employed last year?-I could not say exactly. Perhaps about ten or a dozen were employed about the beaches at Scalloway.

11,425. Had you the superintendence of the beaches at Burra?- No; there were men appointed for that.

11,426. With regard to the ten or a dozen employed at Scalloway, were those men, women and boys?-Yes.

11,427. Were they paid weekly wages?-Yes. They were paid every Saturday, either by me or at the shop.

11,428. Were they paid in money every Saturday?-No, they had to get supplies during the week; and at the end of the week any balance they had was paid in cash.

11,429. Was there generally a balance due?-It was very rarely that there was. They had generally to get supplies to the full amount of their wages.

11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?- Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and then their wages are placed to their credit and if they have anything to get it is given to them.

11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these parties?-Yes, every one has an account, and when he gets advances these are put to that account.

11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but not a great deal.

11,433. Will their average wages be 8s. or 9s. a week?-Not so much. In summer the women get 10d. a day, and in winter 1s. We have a few people employed in winter, but not so many as in summer.

11,434. Are you engaged in the hosiery business at all?-No.

11,435. Do you purchase any quantity of butter and eggs from the people in the district?-Not a great quantity. There are no cattle in the village to give butter, but I buy a small quantity from people in the district.

11,436. Is that paid for in goods?-Yes.

11,437. Do the Burra people bring butter and eggs to you sometimes?-Very little. They sometimes bring a few eggs in summer, and they always get goods in return for them.

11,438. Do the Burra people bring all their eggs to you?-No; they are at liberty to sell them to any person they choose.

11,439. When settling time comes, what have you to do with the men who have accounts in your books?-I send in a note of each man's account to Messrs. Hay, at Lerwick.

11,440. Has the man checked his account in any way before you send it in?-If they choose, they can get their accounts read over to them. Some of them have pass-books, while others have only their accounts read over.

11,441. Do they all get them read over to there?-Generally they do. If they have any doubt about their account, they get it read over; but I have very few disputes of that sort with them.

11,442. Is it the general practice to read over the accounts to the men?-If they wish it.

11,443. But do they generally wish it?-Some of them do, and some do not.

11,444. I suppose the majority do not?-Yes.

11,445. Are they rather careless about these things?-Yes.

[Page 281]

11,446. Suppose you read over a man's account to him, and he objects to any of the items, how could he get that corrected?- Sometimes a man may forget, and he would come to recollect afterwards; but it is very seldom that that occurs with us.

11,447. If he has not a pass-book, has he any means of checking his account at all?-Yes; by his own memory.

11,448. But when you have an entry in your own book, and he says it is wrong, do you correct that entry according to his memory?- No; we would not do that.

11,449. You try to convince him that he is in error?-Yes, and we generally succeed.

11,450. Do you always succeed?-I would say so but we have had very few cases of that sort.

11,451. Don't you think it would be much better if the men would all take pass-books?-Yes; it would prevent any doubt about these matters.

11,452. But I suppose it would give you a good deal more trouble?-It would.

11,453. Is there anything to hinder you from paying ready money when you are settling the price of fish as they are delivered?-If the law was that, we would have to do it the same as others.

11,454. But is there anything to prevent you from doing it, although there is no law on the subject?-There is nothing to prevent us.

11,455. Would it not facilitate your business a good deal?-Yes.

11,456. You could carry on your business with less trouble to yourself ,-only the men might perhaps spend the money at another shop, instead of yours?-Yes.

11,457. Is the price paid for winter fish, when they are bought by you in small quantities, less than is usually paid for summer fish #at settling-time?-No, it is the same price.

11,458. Have you the management of the oyster fishing here?- There are very few of them caught. I have not the management of that, but I sometimes buy a few.

11,459. Do you sometimes buy lobsters?-Not many.

11,460. Are they all paid for in goods in the same manner, and to the same extent, that you have mentioned?-Yes, just in the same way as the others.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, LAURENCE MONCRIEFF, examined.

11,461. You are a baker and provision merchant in Scalloway?-I am.

11,462. You are not a fish-merchant at all?-No.

11,463. Do you purchase hosiery to some extent?-I purchase fancy hosiery to a small extent,-principally veils and shawls, and things of that kind.

11,464. Do you usually pay for it in goods from your shop?-Yes.

11,465. Do you pay for it to any extent in money?-No. I never give money for hosiery.

11,466. Is it always understood that people selling hosiery at your shop are to take goods in exchange?-That is always understood.

11,467. Are you often asked for money?-No. It is always the understanding that they are to take goods but I have been asked once or twice for money.

11,468. Do you employ any people to knit with your wool?-Yes.

11,469. Are they paid in the same way?-Yes.

11,470. Are they employed entirely in knitting, or do they sometimes work at other things?-Some of them depend entirely, or almost entirely, on knitting; but when they require money for their rent or for any particular article which they cannot get for knitting, then, I suppose they have to work at something else.

11,471. Or perhaps they sell their knitting to a shop where they can get what they want although you do not deal in it?-Yes.

11,472. They may go to Lerwick and sell it for soft goods?-They may; but I keep a small assortment of soft goods.

11,473. Therefore they can get most of the articles they want in your shop?-Yes.

11,474. If they cannot get the articles they want are you aware whether they have sometimes been obliged to sell the goods they have got for hosiery, in order to procure what they want?-A case or two of that kind has come before me. I remember one occasion, when I gave a woman some provisions for some soap or something, when she was in a difficulty for the provisions; but that is the only case of the kind that I remember clearly about. Perhaps there may have been more.

11,475. What was the nature of that case?-I suppose she had bartered her knitting for the soap in some place. She was requiring provisions, and could not get them, and she exchanged the soap to me for provisions.

11,476. Was that long ago?-It is some time ago but I don't remember the exact time.

11,477. Did that case strike you as being in any way peculiar or extraordinary?-No. Very few of the hosiery dealers keep provisions, so that at the time the woman had no other way of getting them.

11,478. What price did you give the woman for the soap which she sold to you?-I think I gave her as near my own selling price as I could. It was a small quantity only that she offered to me and it was not worth making any difference upon it. That is generally what I do in cases of that kind which happen to come before me.

11,479. Do you generally give them as near as possible your own selling price for the soap?-Yes.

11,480. Just enough to allow yourself a little commission for your trouble?-No, I don't think I could have any commission on the like of that; at least I don't make a practice of charging a commission in cases of that kind. I don't like to do it if it can be avoided, but in cases of great necessity I sometimes find it my duty to do so.

11,481. You sometimes find it your duty to relieve people's necessities in that way?-Yes, sometimes, if I can manage it.

11,482. But don't you give them a lower price than that which they have nominally purchased the soap for?-I don't think I do that.

11,483. Do you not buy the soap so as to make some little profit upon it when you re-sell it?-The amount of the transactions in that way is so small that I can hardly say. I try to avoid doing it at all; and unless in a case of extreme necessity, I would not do it. It is merely in a case where it is required in order to save life that I do anything of the kind.

11,484. How many women do you usually employ in knitting with your own wool?-I have had very few employed for some time back, perhaps only two or three.

11,485. Do they keep accounts with you for what they want?- Very few of them. I just pay them at the time; but I have a few accounts that I run with some of them.

11,486. Are these accounts both with women who knit with your wool, and with women who knit with their own wool and sell their goods to you?-It is principally with those who knit with my wool that I have accounts.

11,487. What was the name of the person from whom you bought the soap on the occasion you have mentioned?-I think it was either Margaret or Catherine Irvine.

11,488. Was that a very exceptional case?-I should think so.

11,489. Have you not frequently bought from women the goods which they had got in shops at Lerwick?-No, not frequently. That is the only case I remember of distinctly. I remember something being said about the women bringing goods for sale at other times, but I have no distinct recollection about that. It would hardly do for me to make a practice of that, because I have to live and support my family by my profits.

[Page 282]

11,490. But if the women were disposed to sell the goods to you at such a price as would enable you to derive a profit on your re-sale of them, that would be quite legitimate and fair?-Yes; but they could not do that.

11,491. Why?-Because it would cause them a considerable loss. I suppose the goods are priced at an advance before they get them, and they could not afford to sell them to me at a less price than they had paid for them themselves.

11,492. You said you had heard of other cases being mentioned, in which women had offered their goods for sale: what have you heard about that?-I have heard some of my family speaking about the women getting their goods exchanged for provisions, or something of that kind.

11,493. Is your shop generally attended by yourself, or by some of your family?-It is generally attended by mny brother-in-law; he is not here.

11,494. Can you say that he has not bought goods in that way from knitters?-I think not. I don't think he would do that without letting me know about it.

11,495. Do you know of any person here who purchases goods in that way from women who have got them for their hosiery?- There may be such persons but I am not aware of any one who makes a trade of it, or who could make a trade of it. There may be some who do that in order to oblige a woman or to relieve her necessities, but I don't think they could make a practice of it. I have heard of Mrs. Tait doing it in that way.

11,496. Would you show me where you keep your accounts with these women?-Yes. [Produces book.] It is only a small part of that book which I use for that purpose. This [showing] is an account of a woman who dresses for me. Besides what is entered to her account, she is sometimes paid by goods which do not appear in the book at all.

11,497. I see here an entry: 'To amount from line:' do you give lines?-I sometimes give a line to her when I do not care about entering it in the book. I should like better to pay her at once what I was due to her, if I could possibly do so.

11,498. What was the purpose of giving the line?-Just as a security.

11,499. She did not want the goods at the time, and you did not want to open an account?-No.

11,500. You would rather that these women would take the goods at once than have the trouble of keeping an account with them?- Yes.

11,501. What was the form of the line you gave?-It was just a credit note, bearing the name of the party and the amount for which they had to get credit from me.

11,502. Is the amount of that note understood to be paid in goods or in money?-It is never understood to be paid in money. I could not give the same price in money as I could give in goods.

11,503. Does the line express whether it is to be paid in goods or in money?-No.

11,504. Do you issue many of these lines?-Not many; very few require them. They generally take out goods to the full amount at once.

11,505. How did you happen to enter that line in your book?-The woman was getting fully more work from me than she could take out in goods at once, and she preferred to continue working for me and to get things for her family as she required them.

11,506. I see that the bulk of the entries in these accounts are for provisions?-Yes, and for such other goods as we keep-tea, sugar, loaves, butter, meal, flour, soda and other things.

11,507. Where do you get your supplies of worsted?-Principally from Edinburgh or Leith.

11,508. Do you buy any Shetland worsted?-No; I cannot get it to buy.

11,509. Have you tried to get it and found it difficult?-Not often. It was only last spring that I began the hosiery trade at all.

11,510. Do you import all your worsted direct from Edinburgh, or do you get any of it through the Lerwick houses?-I get it all from a wholesale house in Edinburgh.

11,511. What is the quality of the worsted you get from there?-It is generally the finest quality, but not mohair. I don't deal in mohair at all. We generally use two qualities for veils, and these qualities are distinguished by numbers, but I don't remember the numbers just now. I buy it by the pound, and I think it costs me from 5s. to 8s. per pound.

11,512. Do you sell the worsted to knitters?-Yes, when I have an extra supply of it.

11,513. Are you paid for it in hosiery articles or in cash?-In either way; I give it for either when I do sell it. When they have a quantity of hosiery to sell, I prefer them to take an assortment of goods, because provisions are a thing that most people have very little profit upon. If they take the whole price in meal or in anything of that kind, I would not have much profit upon it.

11,514. You would rather have them to take some of the price in soft goods?-Not in soft goods, but in an assortment of groceries.

11,515. When a woman brings her hosiery to you first fix the price, and then, I suppose, you ask her what she wants?-Yes.

11,516. When you come down to a balance of 1d. or 2d, how do you settle that?-If they want nothing else, I often give them the balance in cash. It is the understanding that they are to take the price for their hosiery in goods, but still I don't hesitate to give them 1d. or 2d., or any small thing in money.

11,517. You may give them a penny, or a postage stamp, or a package of sweeties, or anything of that sort?-Yes.

11,518. Have you any accounts with fishermen?-No; they generally run their accounts at the places where they are employed. I would not like to run the risk of supplying them. I think those who are getting the benefit of their fishing ought to run the risk of giving them what supplies they want. I deal with a good many of them in ready money for bread and provisions; not to a very large extent but just in a general way.

11,519. Do you find that they always have ready money with which to pay you for provisions and bread?-Most of those who deal with me have.

11,520. Do you think businesses such as yours would be improved if the fishermen were paid in ready money for the fish they take?-It is possible they might.

11,521. Don't you think you would have a better chance of succeeding in business if the fishermen did not have such long credits?-It is very likely.

11,522. They would have more ready money in their hands throughout the year?-Some of them would.

11,523. At what season of the year have you the largest receipts in your ready money business?-In summer and harvest, I think; but I attribute that more to the weather than to anything else. The country people cannot get to the place in all weathers; they have often to come by sea, and then if they leave home at all it is generally just as easy for them to get to Lerwick as to go to Scalloway.

11,524. Still I don't see how that accounts for your ready money business being larger in summer and harvest than at other periods of the year?-The boats can come from the west side and from the islands in summer more readily than they can in winter, when, perhaps, they cannot get away for weeks. It is chiefly upon people in the country that my business depends. The village of Scalloway is small, and the business from it is also small, so that it is only when the weather is suitable that my customers from the country cannot in to deal with me.

11,525. Do you have a larger amount of business from your immediate neighbours in the spring than at other seasons?-No, I have not noticed that. The business is so mixed up that I can hardly say.

11,526. You don't think the fishermen round about you come to deal with you to a larger extent after settling time in spring than at other periods of the year?-I am not aware of that.

[Page 283]

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CLEMENTINA GREIG, examined.

11,527. You live at Braehead, Scalloway, with your sister?-Yes.

11,528. Your mother died about two years ago a very old woman?-Yes; she was 95.

11,529. Have you supported yourself for a long time by knitting?-Yes; I began to knit thirty-three years ago, and since then I have not earned a sixpence by anything else, except my own family work. My mother also depended on me.

11,530. What kind of knitting do you do?-Shawls and veils.

11,531. Have you ever got any money for your work?-I have sold several shawls and veils to gentlemen who were travelling through the country in July and August, and got money for them; but I never got a penny in all my life from any of the merchants in Lerwick. I was the first individual in Scalloway who commenced to knit, and I have taught many of the people here.

11,532. Do you knit with your own wool, or with worsted that is given out to you?-On several occasions, within the last three years, I have bought some Scotch worsted; but before that I always spun the wool myself, and sold my own goods. I never knitted a shawl or a veil for a merchant in my life.

11,533. Did you think it better to knit with your own material?-I think it paid a little better when we got a price for it, but it was very seldom that a sufficient price was given. For shawls that I used to get 1 for from gentlemen in the south, the merchants never offered me more than 17s. or 18s., and that was paid in goods.

11,534. Who did you knit most to?-To Mr. Robert Sinclair. I scarcely ever sold a shawl to any other merchant than him.

11,535. Have you sometimes asked him for money?-Yes. Two years ago, when my mother was dying, and my sister was brought in with a broken limb, I took a shawl to Lerwick, in order to get a doctor. I went to Mr. Sinclair with the shawl, and he asked what I wanted. I said I was selling it in a case of necessity, and that I wanted 18s., and he offered me 17s. I asked him, if he would give me a little money if I sold it to him for 17s., but he said he would not, and he rejected it. I sold the same shawl, when I came back, to Mr. Garriock, Reawick, and I got 1 for it in money from him.

11,536. Does Mr. Garriock buy shawls for sale?-No. He told me he had got an order from some ladies for such work; and generally when he gets an order he buys one or two of these things from me, and sends them off to his friends, but he is not a merchant.

11,537. The shawl which you sold for 1 would be a large fine shawl?-Yes. I have got as high as 25s. in money for them.

11,538. How long does it take you to make such a shawl?-When I spin the wool myself it takes me a month, but with clean worsted I will make it in about three weeks.

11,539. How many cuts does it take to make a shawl of that sort?-It takes 32 cuts of Shetland worsted to make a shawl of about 22 or 23 scores, 21/2 yards square.

11,540. Where do you buy the wool that you spin?-I often buy it in the shops in Lerwick when they have it to sell.

11,541. Do some of the merchants in Lerwick sell the wool?- Yes, when it comes in. The poor people who bring it from the country sell it for meal and goods, and the merchants send it out again. I have bought it from Mr. George Laurenson for the last six or seven years. He gets the best of it from Unst. His shop is in Lerwick, beside Mr. Sinclair's.

11,542. Do you buy that wool by the lb.?-Yes; we pay 1s. 6d. for the finest wool, and half pound of that makes a shawl. It will produce 32 or 33 cuts, and make such a shawl as I sold for 1. I last bought wool from Mr. Laurenson in July of last year. I got 11/2 lbs. at that time at 1s. 6d. a lb. When I am busy I buy some Scotch worsted and knit it too.

11,543. Is the Scotch worsted what is called Pyrenees wool?-Yes.

11,544. Where do you buy it?-From Mr. Sinclair but when we sell him a shawl he will not give us worsted back upon the shawl.

11,545. Not even Scotch worsted?-No. I must pay the money for worsted, whether it is Scotch or Shetland. The Scotch worsted sells by the oz., at 10d. or 1s., according to the fineness of thread. It takes 6 oz. of that worsted to make a shawl for which I will get 1.

11,546. Have you bought any Shetland worsted?-I have always bought the wool and spun it myself.

11,547. How long will the spinning of half-a-pound take?-It will take me a week to spin it sitting very close at it and sleeping very little.

11,548. Would it be cheaper to buy the Scotch worsted?-Yes; but articles made of it do not sell so well. The Shetland worsted is preferred, as being much better.

11,549. Do you think you will have a larger profit on a shawl, the wool for which you have been a week in spinning, and in knitting which you have been employed another four weeks, than on a shawl which you make of Scotch worsted?-Yes.

11,550. When you buy the Scotch worsted and make a shawl of it, how long will it take you to knit it?-I will make it in less than three weeks.

11,551. What will be the difference in the price which you get for the shawl at the end of that time?-When I have sold a shawl made of Scotch worsted to gentleman or lady who happened to be in the country in July or August I have got as much for it as for one made of Shetland worsted, because the one is as fine as the other, but they prefer the Shetland thread to the Scotch thread. The merchants in Lerwick will not buy a Scotch shawl from me. They put out worsted of that kind to be knitted for themselves, but they will not buy such things from us. They will only buy the real Shetland work.

11,552. Have you ever done any knitting in silk?-No.

11,553. Is it as a favour that the merchants sell you worsted when they do sell it?-No. They are quite willing to sell it if we have money to pay for it.

11,554. Have you asked for worsted in return for your hosiery?- Yes. I asked it from a Mr. Sinclair, and he would not give it. I have asked that both from himself and from some of the men in his shop, and they said it was not a customary thing, and they could not give it.

11,555. Have you ever offered to take a lower price for your knitting if you were paid in money?-Yes. In the case I have mentioned, I offered to take a less price if they would give me 1s. or 2s. in money; but they refused, and I took home my shawl, and did not sell it to them.

11,556. In that case did you ask for the whole price in money?- No; I only asked him if he would give me a little money upon it. The price I asked for the shawl was 18s., and I offered to give it to him for 17s. if he would give me some money.

11,557. Did he price the shawl at 20s.?-No; he priced it at 17s. I priced it at 1 and I got that for it when I took it home.

11,558. Have you ever been obliged to exchange any of the goods you got from the hosiery merchants?-I never exchanged anything for provisions, because when parties came to the country in July and August, I would often get two or three shawls sold to them for money.

11,559. Do you know that people who knit have sometimes been obliged to exchange soft goods for provisions?-I believe there are some who have been under the necessity of doing that.

11,560. Do you know any people who make a practice of buying goods from women in that way?-No, I don't know any one who makes a practice of it.

[Page 284]

11,561. Are there not some people who go about the country hawking goods, which they have bought from the women?-I believe there are; but I do not know their names, because I have never been in the habit of dealing with them.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, EUPHEMIA RUSSELL, examined.

11,562. You live with your mother at Blackness, Scalloway?- Yes.

11,563. Your mother is an old-woman and bedridden?-Yes; she is seventy-two.

11,564. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes, or by out-door work when knitting cannot be sold for money.

11,565. Would you give your whole time to knitting if you could get money for your work?-Yes.

11,566. How long are you obliged to go to out-door work in the year? Two or three months every year?-Yes; if it was all put together, it would be two or three months.

11,567. Do you just go to that when you want money?-Yes.

11,568. Is it in the fields or the fish that you work?-Sometimes in the fields and sometimes at the fish.

11,569. For how long have you been in the habit of knitting?-For about twenty-five years.

11,570. Have you often been paid in money for it?-Never, except on an occasion when a stranger was passing, or when Mr. Garriock would take my work. He has sold several shawls for me.

11,571. Did you hear what Clementina Greig said about the quantity of worsted required for a shawl?-Yes; I agree with her evidence about that.

11,572. Have you bought wool yourself?-Yes; I have bought wool from Widow Nicholson, who lives near here, and also from James Williamson, when he had a little to spare. I paid 1s. 6d. for his wool, and 1s. 4d. for hers; but that was not used entirely for shawls. I took the best of it for shawls, and the rest was used for other purposes.

11,573. Did you spin that wool yourself?-Yes. When my mother was in health she spun it; but I spin it for myself now.

11,574. Do you take as long to spin it as Clementina Greig said?- Yes, quite as long.

11,575. Do you sometimes get a little money for your hosiery?- Not from the merchants in Lerwick. I never ask for it there, because it is not the custom to give it.

11,576. Do you keep an account with any of these merchants?- No. I just sell my goods right off, and settle for them at once.

11,577. Have you ever sold them any hosiery made of Scotch worsted?-No. I never made with that Scotch worsted; I always made my own worsted.

11,578. Have you ever had occasion to exchange any of the goods which you got from the merchants for your hosiery?-I have exchanged tea for meal with the country people round about, but nothing else. I took more tea from the merchant than I intended to use myself, and I have given it in exchange for meal several times.

11,579. Do you generally take a quantity of tea from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. When Mr. Sinclair bought my goods, as he always did when I offered them to him, he never refused to give me anything in his shop that asked from him, except worsted. I once asked worsted from him, and I did not get it.

11,580. But you got everything except worsted or money?-Yes.

11,581. Have you lately taken more tea than you required, and exchanged it for meal?-I have not done it this year, because I sold a shawl to Mr. Garriock, which supplied me with money in the meantime, and paid my rent and some other little things besides.

11,582. When you want money, do you generally get it in that way?-When I want money, I usually give a shawl to Mr. Garriock, who will sell it for me when he has the chance. If he cannot get the shawl sold at the time when we need the money, we go to out-door work; but Mr. Garriock is kind enough to let the shawl lie until he can get it sold for us.

11,583. But one way in which you get money is by selling the tea which you have got in exchange for your hosiery?-I have never sold tea for money-only for meal.

11,584. But when you have no meal, and no money with which to buy it, that is the way you take to get it?-Yes

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, MARY COUTTS, examined.

11,585. You and your sister have lived for a long time in Scalloway with your father and aunt?-Yes.

11,586. Are they old people?-Yes.

11,587 Have you and your sister been their chief support by your knitting?-Yes, and by other work as well.

11,588. What kind of knitting have you done?-Shawls and veils.

11,589. Do you knit with your own wool, or have you got it out from the merchants?-The most of it belonged to the Lerwick merchants. I knitted it and took it to them.

11,590. How were you paid for your work?-In tea and goods.

11,591. Did you ever get money?-No.

11,592. Did you ever ask for it?-Yes.

11,593. Did you never get 6d. at a time?-I have got 3d., but that was the most. I once asked 1s. from Mr. Robert Linklater, to pay for mending my boots; but it was refused. That was about eight years ago.

11,594. And I suppose that did not encourage you to ask it again?-It did not. We ceased to knit for him.

11,595. Did you ask for money from anybody else?-Yes.

11,596. Did you get a little?-Nothing except a mere trifle, perhaps 11/2d. or 2d. from Mr. Sinclair.

11,597. Was that merely a balance that you had to get on your knitting?-No.

11,598. Have you an account there?-Yes. There is an account in his books.

11,599 All your knitting goes into that account and all your out-takes go into it too?-Yes.

11,600. You are just paid in goods, with 1d. or 2d. in cash now and then?-Yes.

11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and Sandness, for that. Our aunt Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years, but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and potatoes in exchange.

11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year.

11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No.

11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the farmers?- I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say. They did not weigh out the meat and potatoes which they gave in exchange; they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt gave them. I have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four miles away, to make these exchanges. That was where most of her friends were.

11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal. The cotton would be worth 6d. it yard, or 15d.; and the meal would be [Page 285] worth 1s. I remember doing that about three years ago; but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had cost us in Lerwick.

11,606. Do you make fine shawls?-Yes.

11,607. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of 21/2 yards square?-10s. 6d.; and I have got as high 6s. from Mr Moncrieff, but the worsted was his own.

11,608. What was the cause of that difference between 10s. 6d. and 16s.?-The finer the worsted is, the more we get for knitting it.

11,609. How many cuts of Shetland worsted would it take to make such a shawl?-About 34 or 35. The shawl I got 16s. for took about 7 oz. of Scotch worsted.

11,610. How long would it take you to make it?-My sister and I are not in very good health, and we do not work very steadily, but it would be some weeks from the time we got the worsted until we returned it.

11,611. Do you know what these shawls would sell for?-No,

11,612. Have you never sold a shawl of that kind yourself?-I have sold shawls to Mr. Sinclair of our own spinning, and got 18s., 19s., and 20s. for them.

11,613. Were these shawls very much the same as that which you got 16s. for?-No, they were not so fine.

11,614. Would they be much the same as those you got 10s. 6d. for knitting?-Yes; they were quite as fine.

11,615. And you would sell them for 18s. or 20s. in goods?-Yes.

11,616. What would the wool of one of those shawls you sold to Mr. Sinclair cost you?-It would cost 1s. 6d. per lb., and 1/2 lb. would make one of them.

11,617. That would be 9d. for the wool. How long would the spinning take you in the way you work?-Perhaps more than a week. We have to go to the hill for our peats and turf, and that takes up part of our time.

11,618. Which do you think pays you best,-getting 10s. 6d. for knitting the shawl, or spinning your own wool and selling it?- Spinning our own wool pays best.

11,619. Do you sell your shawls yourself?-Sometimes; but our aunt generally goes with them.

11 620. Have you asked for money yourself and been refused it?-Yes; I was only refused it once.

11,621. What was the largest sum of money you ever got from the merchants?-3d. or 4d.

11,622. Did your aunt sometimes succeed better in getting money than you did?-Sometimes. When visitors were here she would; she always sold them to them.

11,623. But when she sold to a merchant, has she often got more money than you have mentioned just now?-No; when she sold to the merchants, and did not want to take goods for the whole, she took a line. It was from Mr. Sinclair that she got lines, and when we wanted goods we took back the line and got them. We once got lines from Mr. Tulloch also. We only got goods for them, not cash.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, ISABELLA HENDERSON, examined.

11,624. You live in Scalloway with your father and sister?-Yes.

11,625. Is your father an old man?-Yes. He is between sixty and seventy years old. He is not fit to work much, but he goes to sea occasionally in fine weather.

11,626. Do you and your sister chiefly support the family by your knitting and other work?-Yes.

11,627. Do you require cash sometimes for your rent and provisions?-Yes.

11,628. Have you a little bit of ground?-Yes. We have a small bit from the farmers during the season for potatoes.

11,629. Where do you generally sell your veils?-We just sell them to any of the merchants. We make them chiefly with our own wool, but sometimes we get worsted given out to us from Mr. Sinclair and Mr. Arthur Laurenson.

11,630. Have you accounts with these merchants?-Yes. We always had accounts when we got out worsted from them.

11,631. When you knit for them with their worsted, are you paid in goods?-Yes.

11,632. And also when you sell an article of your own?-Yes.

11,633. Have you ever got any money from them?-No.

11,634. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. It is some time ago, but I asked once or twice, and was refused. After that I was accustomed to get nothing but tea or soft goods, or anything else they had in the shop, and I did not ask for money again.

11,635. Did they ever ask you to take a less price when you asked for money?-No.

11,636. Did they never offer to give you money if you would take less for your goods?-No

11,637. Have you ever had to exchange your goods for provisions?-Often. I have done that with several people. Sometimes, when I sold my veils, I would have to take a line from Mr. Sinclair; and if I knew any person who was requiring such goods as Mr. Sinclair kept, I would sell the line to them, and they would go to Lerwick with it and get what they wanted.

11,638. Who have you bartered your lines with in that way?-I am not inclined to tell their names, because it was done to me as a favour, and they did not wish it to be made known. I may say, however, that I have given the soft goods to Mrs. Tait in Charles Nicholson's shop.

11,639. Was Mrs. Tait always ready to take your goods?-She was not very ready, but when she saw it was necessary, she would do it out of kindness.

11,640. When you dispose of your goods in that way, do you generally get the full value for them?-Not always.

11,641. You have to take a little off them in order to get what you want?-Yes.

11,642. Do you do that several times in the year?-I do it very often.

11,643. Do you know that other knitters have to do the same thing?-Very likely they do. I believe there are others who have to do it besides me.

11,644. Have you often given away your lines in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, very often.

11,645. Do you make a practice of it?-Yes, I have had to do it.

11,646. Do you get a great number of lines in the course of the year?-Sometimes; not a great many. I just get them as I require them.

11,647. What do you get for the lines when you part with them in the way you have mentioned?-I have got money, and sometimes provisions.

11,648. Have you got money for a line lately?-Yes, in harvest. It was a line for 7s.

11,649. Did you get 7s. in money for it?-Yes; but when the people came to take the goods, if they did not get them to their own mind, I had to make up whatever loss they had upon them.

11,650. Was that the bargain, that if they did not get their satisfaction in goods, you were to give them back some of the money?-No, not the money. I was just to give them something in addition. Of course, they could not expect the money back from me.

11,651. Did you give them anything back?-They have not sought for it yet, and I cannot say whether they will ask for anything or not.

11,652. Have you always got the full amount of the line in money, when you gave it in that way?-No; not altogether.

11,653. Have you sometimes given it for less than the sum named in it?-Yes.

11,654. For 6d. or 1s. less?-That just depended on the amount of the line. I could not say particularly.

11,655. Did you get the full value for all the lines [Page 286] which you parted with last harvest?-Yes, I got the full value for them, but it was as a favour to me that I got it.

11,656. Can you mention any case in which you got less for a line than the sum that was named in it?-I could not remember any particular case where that happened with a line; but I have often suffered a good deal of loss by the soft goods. On one occasion I lost 1s. 6d. upon 6s. 6d.

11,657. Did you get 6s. 6d. worth of soft goods, and give them away for 5s.?-Yes.

11,658. Did you get 5s. in money?-No; not altogether in money, but partly in meal. They said the cost price of the articles would be 5s, and they gave me that value for them.

11,659. Have you ever given anything back, when the people that you gave the lines to were not able to satisfy themselves at the shop?-Yes, once. I gave them the worth of 1s. in other goods that I had got from the shop.

11,660. What was the value of that line?-I cannot say. The lines I have got have run between 3s. and 10s.; but I could not say the exact amount of that particular line.

11,661. Do you know any people who make a trade of buying goods from the knitters, and selling them through the country?-I could not say that any person makes a trade of it. I don't think any person would like to do that.

11,662. Are there not some women who hawk goods through the country, which they have got in that way?-I know there are and I have done that myself more than once.

11,663. What have you done more than once?-Taken the soft goods which I got at Lerwick, and gone through the country and sold them. The last time I did that was three years past in spring, and I had done it before.

11,664. Was it in a bad year when you did that?-Yes.

11,665. And you wanted potatoes?-Yes.

11,666. Had you to travel far in order to get them?-Between two and three miles.

11,667. Had you tried often before you got your goods sold?-Not often. Of course, I had spoken to the people before I took the goods to them. I did not go out on the chance of selling them.

11,668. Were the goods taken as a favour to you, and not in the ordinary way of business?-Yes, it was done quite as a favour.

11,669. But do you know any person who travels through the country regularly, and hawks goods which have been bought from the knitters?-I don't know any person particularly who has done that.

11,670. Have you ever heard that such things were done?-I cannot say that I have.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ANN LEASK or INKSTER, examined.

11,671. You live in Scalloway?-I do.

11,672. Have you sometimes knitted hosiery goods for sale?-Yes; I have knitted some for Mr. Sinclair.

11,673. Have you been paid for them in money or in goods?- When I knitted goods for sale I was paid for them in money. I knitted some for Dr. Hamilton, Bressay, and I was paid money for them. He had got an order for them from the south.

11,674. But when you sold them to merchants, you were paid in goods?-Yes; I never asked them for any money, because I did not require it. I always took what I required in cottons, cloth, and so on. Besides, I knew it was not the practice to give money.

11,675. Did you sell your own knitting?-No. I knitted for Mr. Sinclair, except what I got orders to knit from the south.

11,676. Have you an aunt who knits also?-Yes.

11,677. Does she sometimes sell shawls made with her own worsted?-She did formerly, but she does not do so now.

11,678. Do you think the merchants make any profit by the shawls they buy?-I cannot say; perhaps they do.

11,679. They say they sell them to the merchants in the south at exactly the same rate as they buy them here. Do you know of any case where a merchant has sold a shawl at a great profit?-No.

11,680. Do you know of a merchant buying a shawl from you for 15s. or 16s., and then selling it within a few minutes after that for double the money?-No. I do not remember any case of that kind.

11,681. Did you ever hear of such a case?-Not so far as I recollect.

11,682. Did you or your aunt ever sell a shawl at 15s., or about that price, which was sold immediately afterwards, in the same shop, to a gentleman for about twice the money?-I never saw that done. My aunt may have done so for anything I know, for I was not always with her. I was in service for some time, and I cannot answer for what she may have done at that time. My aunt's name is Ann Williamson; she lives in Scalloway.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH IRVINE or SMITH, examined.

11,683. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,684. Have you been in the habit of knitting?-Yes, a little. I have knitted for several people, but chiefly for Mr. Sinclair. I have knitted for him for eleven years, and I keep an account with him.

11,685. Do you get what goods you want out of his shop?-Yes. I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him.

11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven years?-Yes.

11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I always got what I asked.

11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes. The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s.

11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing.

11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s.

11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am aware.

11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I did not.

11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards.

11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more than I asked.

11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?- No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on.

11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr. Stewart.

11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store.

11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it, as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It was the same to her as money.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined.

11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way.

11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat.

11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr. Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it.

11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles.

11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and spring when the men go to fish in the bays.

11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes.

11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons.

11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are delivered to you?-Yes.

11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get them.

11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price.

11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very little in soft goods, except at times.

11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as the men prefer it themselves.