7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the property.

7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen at settlement was about 553, and that the average amount due by each man for goods to his family would be 3, 8s. 6d.: would there be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.

7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.

7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to 12, 9s. 6d.

7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.

7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man had very high earnings.

7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish bought to the value of about 7000; and during the same time the cash paid at settlement has been about 4420. That includes the rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at settlement: Cash Paid at Value of Fishings. Settlement. 1868 About 400 290 1869 704 335 1870 1003 540 1871 1220 723

[Page 173]

7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.

7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August. After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.

7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging to the men themselves?-Yes.

7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.

7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I think since I came there they have generally been purchased from them, but not altogether.

7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is, that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years they stand in separate account in my books.

7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account. That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close of three years.

7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.

7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they are delivered.

7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave these transactions unsettled.

7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they are not required to do it in any way.

7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been many exceptions that I have known.

7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.

7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back again.'

7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.

7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.

7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the time?-Yes.

7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about 56.

7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes; but I think in some years since I came there it has been over 100.

7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?- Yes.

7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?- No; not generally.

7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go south, employ their time in winter in that way.

7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.

7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.

7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea, where they graze for their own purposes.

7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for that island yearly.

7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the cattle?-For no other purpose.

7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.

7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes, mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases where they received the cash again immediately.

7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or they get cash for them at any time they want.

7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we might buy her or not.

7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never practised it at North Roe.

7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.

7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and removed it.

7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?- Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time, and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was not the debtor at all.

7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it, to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.

7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is possible it may have been in that way.

7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.

7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.

7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.

7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I don't think it.

7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.

7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.

7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.

7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and October.

7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.

7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him to do so.

7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy them.

7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all occasions.

7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No. I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody, they could have an action against him for refusing it.

7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I do not think it does exist.

7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.

7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I have transacted such business for some of them.

7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year I sent 11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick, and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'

7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to make him the advance?-Yes.

7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant, rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such a case in our own neighbourhood.

7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own experience?-No.

7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know that it is the practice.

7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?- I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own knowledge.

7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands: do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.

7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?- No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to them for any tickets want.

7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.

7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind. There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money, and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself direct.

7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments, we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments, would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.

7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay them to do so.

7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.

7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.

7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to support them they are bound to do so.

7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish, and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.

7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s. 6d. to 15s. a month.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON, examined.

7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.

7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes; but principally in drapery.

7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage in that trade to a small extent.

7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had three boats last year, two large and one small.

7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.

7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.

[Page 175]

7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.

7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has been described by the previous witness and settle with them yearly?-Yes.

7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years they have generally been in their favour. In former years they were not generally so; they were often against them.

7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively; but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat, I have not had many changes.

7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your employment during that time?-Yes.

7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes. Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer; but generally they have been the same.

7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all cases.

7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few cases.

7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.

7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that accommodation?-Most of them are.

7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case with most of them.

7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.

7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of them, have their own wool.

7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a very small extent.

7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?- Invariably in goods.

7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?- No; very seldom.

7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.

7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books? -Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts short.

7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in goods over the counter.

7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value; but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall pay it.

7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it. 7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book now, so that I may be kept safe.

7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out.

7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No.

7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However, it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that way.

7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special.

7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it, and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash, and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in exchange.

7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes.

7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the invoices.

7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as got by them?-Yes.

7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by you?-Yes.

7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at 15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870.

7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not get any return.

7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices.

7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176] sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in which there is any profit.

7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted, but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district.

7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?- Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood.

7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare exceptions.

7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made into tweeds.

7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our knitters don't knit that kind of work.

7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually.

7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?- Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but they can turn it to more account by knitting.

7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?- I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us; but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable.

7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes.

7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into articles of hosiery?-Yes.

7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material, and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well, she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool themselves, than by selling it.

7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way.

7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate.

7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,- seven years.

7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time.

7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably enlarged.

7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm.

7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes.

7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would make the necessary repairs on it for myself.

7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on account of interfering with the business of the other merchants in the district?-No.

7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me on account of the inconvenience.

7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists only to it very small extent.

7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from such men.

7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the men.

7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in all cases.

7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my experience.

7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account which they had at my shop.

7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few.

7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few.

7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually bring part of the cash which has been paid to them.

7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at that time?-Sometimes I do.

7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some cases.

7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In cases where the parties are poor they do.

7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?- No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that sort.

7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in that way?-No.

7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done so.

7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the contrary.

7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his former employer?-Yes.

7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I believe that is generally the case.

7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he could for himself.

7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes.

7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another employer?-Yes.

7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount.

7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court, because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay.

7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes.

7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me, as an instalment on the debt.

7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes; the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the change in going to another employer would lead him to better himself.

7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better himself.

7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think so.

7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not give me security to cover my risk in giving him any.

7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account, and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next two seasons.

7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid me.

7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with you?-That has been the only case in my experience.

7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for Messrs. Hay & Co.

7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago, when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district, would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or not.

7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he would undertake to pay for the man.

7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before, and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend.

7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson & Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was a member of that firm.

7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which you have described exist among the fishing curers in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about.

7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes.

7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes.

7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs. Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since.

7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?- Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another firm.

7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie, Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick.

7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank, or from Mossbank to here.

7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so.

7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge.

7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend.

7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and Messrs. Hay.

7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them get into debt.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER, examined.

7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am.

7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes.

[Page 178]

7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-5, 15s.

7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair season?-Yes.

7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your family?-Between 3 and 4.

7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the men take more than that.

7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe for all the things you want in the way of provisions and clothing?-Yes.

7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little.

7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend.

7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to any great extent except at North Roe.

7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs. Hay?-Yes; so far as I know.

7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very convenient.

7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I have always found them so.

7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter.

7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price, according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it.

7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight.

7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s.

7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe. That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there.

7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever fished for any other merchants?-No.

7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No.

7406. Not your small fish?-No.

7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe.

7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes.

7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No.

7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it openly.

7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in winter to anybody you like?-No.

7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes.

7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr. Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash.

7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little.

7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes.

7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do.

7419. Is she a widow?-Yes.

7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes.

7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No.

7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it ourselves.

7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else in the house?-There is a servant.

7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes.

7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I do some.

7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at Ollaberry.

7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your work?-I cannot say.

7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes.

7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same.

7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods.

7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them.

7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers.

7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps we may get as much as 2s. when they are good.

7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes.

7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No.

7436. Why?-I never asked it.

7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes.

7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally needing the goods.

7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was.

7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew that if I had asked it I might have got a little.

7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery whenever you take it to sell?-Yes.

7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in goods?-I don't know.

7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair.

7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No.

7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson.

7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes oftener.

7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold by you except hosiery?-No.

7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put into our account; they are just paid for at the time.

7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked.

7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often.

7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly taking tea.

7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes.

7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer? Three or four dozen?-We might.

7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d.

7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but generally.

7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?- No.

7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when the hosiery is not paid up.

7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?- Yes, generally.

7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton.

7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes.

[Page 179]

7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for yourself?-Generally.

7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes.

7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No.

7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at Hillswick?-No.

7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do.

7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair.

7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just about the same, I suppose.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R. SUTHERLAND, examined.

7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am.

7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848.

7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any minister can be.

7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally.

7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No.

7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits of the people?-I am perfectly willing.

7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being intimately acquainted with them, and having received the statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control.

7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips.

7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could point out, but not many.

7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came here.

7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes.

7479. Do you think the people generally who make these statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so, because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively independent. I speak only of that independence which we might expect from such it population. There are many of them who are in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I know.

7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very few compared with the rest.

7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable circumstances.

7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who are indebted, your information is derived from their own statements, and you say that you think generally these statements are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements can be expected to be; but I have my information from other sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well as I know them myself.

7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about his affairs?-Yes.

7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other way.

7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took place.

7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners, may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird.

7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally, more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor, were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing.

7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180] should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that.

7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly.

7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way.

7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a population such as the general Shetland population. He had to leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said, 'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a consequence of that sort of dealing.

7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes. What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration.

7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the whole population of Shetland.

7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their sentiments quite well upon the subject.

7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated.

7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about 5 or 6 was sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him. The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy, perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be immoral.

7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how destructive the system is to the morality of the common people, and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give the illustration without mentioning him.

7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be its effects.

7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I would have told him that every man should pay his debts.

7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no such thing.

7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?- Distinctly.

7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever.

7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I knew nothing more about it than that.

7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you did not inquire further?-Quite so.

7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the account, or what it was for, or anything about it.

7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time.

7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it than that.

7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were examined yesterday?-I did.

7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct description of their circumstances, and of the system on which they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to have given, and which they had given to me in private.

7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and from conversations which I have had with these witnesses.

7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and which were rather different from the statements she made here: did she make any different statement to you at any time from what she made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them, gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that they should have given, and I know the reason why.

7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181] statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses. It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very few exceptions.

7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in debt to the shop, less or more.

7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against the facts that I know with regard to the people.

7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very different feeling among the people.

7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once.

7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask?

7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?- I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome competition would be introduced, which I think would be an advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth.

7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may exist in the district are commonly called peerie ( small) shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more, they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops.

7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality he is selling for another.

7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it all my life.

7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them, because there is no competition at all.

7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday.

7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with the articles after they get them.

7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too. The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people by the nature of their early training.

7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one who is connected with the country must see it as well.

7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?- I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me. She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the coffin or at her grave.

7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived. I think one of them lived about half-way between this and Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district.

7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early training produced by the system of credit.

7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for themselves?-Where?

7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No; they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants, are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the children there when they came home were not made to pay for their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered into the family again the same as they were before they went out. They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment.

7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they require them.

7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here. They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts.

7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do that without being in debt.

7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does here.

7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that could be produced.

7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes. I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr. Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next sentence is, 'If a man gets 1 or 2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence.

7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question 44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with that entirely.

7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?- That is the case, so far as I know.

7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs, and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I would meet her again coming back, and among other things she would have a little bag with her in which there would be some hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back in exchange for the eggs.

7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that these articles do not form part of the husband's account.

7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it. Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest.

7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr. Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the independence of the people very much; with that I entirely agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it.

7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of from 70 to 90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted, and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse than that. Another man came into possession of 230 or by the death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands, and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said, 'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get 5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life, and you can hand down the 230 to your children.' He said, 'I am determined to do everything you have advised, and that money shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out, and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money.

7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all gone.

7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here than they do in other places?-I think very much more so.

7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least, they can only get clothing for their knitting.

7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft goods generally that the hosiery is paid for.

7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that is not the case here.

7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both here and at Lerwick.

7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing, and he told me.

7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said: 'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to take them into Lerwick.'

7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails, or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But what have they said?

7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one man here who was not by any means a representative of the ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among whom he lives.

7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or two?-Not very many.

7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer people have appeared here than at other places with even less population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in debt 13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks. Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to the wife and said, 'Have you 13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's appreciation of the value of debt.

7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that wholly and to nothing else.

7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from Ollaberry.

7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about your condition before: will you come now and give information about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it, as it would just make their case worse.

7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the poor people of this country.

7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed.

7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did.

7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter, and have been speaking to people about coming forward and giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once.

7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark. If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me except in the dark.

7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous; but some years there is a good deal of it.

7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can spare to me.

7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are many others.

7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular article I purchase it here.

7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from the south?-So far as I know, it is.

[Page 184]

7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.

7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge upon their goods.

7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am not accusing him at all.

7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is the system I object to.

7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known several cases of that kind.

7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be, in order to correct this evil.

7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end of it.

7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than what I find around me, but the system would make them what they are on both sides.

7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were conducted in this part of the country.

7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.