6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at the beginning?-Yes.

6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any one I can get.

6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always been hitherto.

6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work for you in the same employment next year?-No.

6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that.

6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing.

6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails among the people generally.

6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It is quite possible.

6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me.

6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free.

6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year, remain in your service and work on until their account is paid up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority.

6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think.

6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger wages?-I think they often clear off their debt.

6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not. It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy.

[Page 161]

6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf; perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind; but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that.

6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?- Yes.

6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on that subject?-Yes.

6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go. 4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay for it.

6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes.

6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods

6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way

6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various shops round about where they could go to.

6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference on it for several years.

6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least at Hillswick.

6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate.

6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also.

6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except yourself?-No; that is quite understood.

6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?- Yes; 15s. per ton.

6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have brought your women's book to show how that business is conducted?-Yes.

6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always.

6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?- There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay cash for hosiery, but to give goods only.

6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on the hosiery?-Yes.

6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery.

6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where we can get it sold.

6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not through Lerwick merchants?-Yes.

6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to them?-No.

6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes.

6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be, on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes, that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many cases.

6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted cash for that, we would give it.

6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes.

6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell.

6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so.

6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No.

6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes, they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery.

6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt with?-It is entered to her account.

6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes.

6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books.

6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of years?-Yes, very often.

6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts are entered?-Yes.

6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries.

6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft goods?-No; not the same value.

6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is no agreement of that sort.

6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just give them to her.

6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in soft goods?-Not exactly the same value.

6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to her at a higher price?-Yes.

6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell them to a cash customer?-Yes.

6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes.

6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes.

6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters would be simpler and more convenient for all parties concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my shop or to some other shop with it for her goods.

6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might.

6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her gain would be.

6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods.

6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite distinct.

6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No.

6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it could be enforced against him.

6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe herself with. It is all the wages she gets.

6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?- [Produces women's book]

[Page 162]

6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes.

6681. I see that some women make home-spun tweed?-Yes

6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes.

6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if required.

6684. But at a cash price?-Yes.

6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes.

6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She wanted meal, I think, and some other goods.

6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is brisk.

6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes.

6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There may be some of them there.

6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter.

6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?- What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger.

6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is no more trace of it.

6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very much the same.

6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?- Yes.

6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of them, or they are settled for at the time in goods.

6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea.

6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I have not.

6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn that that was done, even if it was the case.

6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth, and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time, is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally.

6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so much in goods?-Yes.

6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the party to whom they were given?-I think so.

6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not; because we know all the people, and they could not impose on us in that way.

6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss. If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own family, we would naturally suppose there was something suspicious about it.

6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?- Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is not very much practised in our shop.

6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward.

6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry.

6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately. When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that understanding has not been acted upon.

6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them.

6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so.

6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is nothing that I am aware of.

6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I am.

6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A good many of them do.

6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their account?-Yes, very frequently.

6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much upon their own wishes.

6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally.

6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes.

6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had not paid for.

6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No.

6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes.

6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for shop goods?-I think not.

6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was standing unpaid for in my books.

6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of which the money was given.

6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think there was one man who said something about it at one time; but after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about it.

6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats.

6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so.

6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so much for building a boat.

6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think we generally pay 3 for the work on a six-oared boat.

6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat, does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally has an account running.

6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build boats for me afterwards.

6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who work at nothing else?-Yes.

6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes.

6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No.

6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes.

6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building more than one at a time.

6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes.

6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family.

6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may be others that we intend to have short accounts.

6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is nothing entered that is due to them?-No.

6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No.

6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes.

6741. It is a large book?-Yes.

6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed in fish-curing?-Yes.

6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No; their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are paid right off.

6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the book.

6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until they got it squared off, and then it was entered.

6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I fancy it was just paid off at the time.

6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and December last amounted to 1006.

6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year; but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid 1811 in cash, and in 1870 I paid 2040. I think the highest I paid to one man this season was 24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement.

6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him.

6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind.

6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?- There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for leases and have not got them.

6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it.

6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the necessity granting leases.

6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not granted.

6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent would be raised if a lease were granted.

6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think so, although I could not name them just now.

6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?- Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property, I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to Anderson & Co. or to me.

6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?- There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too.

6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many.

6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at the Faroe fishing?-No.

6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor.

6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held to belong to the landlord.

6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland.

6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land much who is employed for four or five months in the year fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way.

6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have never been aware of any case where that has been done.

6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your own hands?-Yes.

6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page 164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements, either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease.

6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen years.

6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added to their cultivated ground.

6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement to them?-I would fancy so.

6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to make?-I think not.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON, examined.

6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there.

6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick from Mr. Gifford.

6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar at present.

6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for him. I have been fishing for him two years now.

6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson.

6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without supplies for my family, I went to another man.

6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to work on either: I had no boat.

6779. What was the amount of your debt?-17, 9s. 5d.

6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you supplies?-Yes.

6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time, during the fishing season.

6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes.

6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-17, 9s. 5d. was the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the season out, and left him when the season was done.

6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes.

6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I was due him 17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it.

6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he stopped the supplies?-No.

6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes.

6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have been.

6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No.

6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from him.

6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet.

6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer, when I left the town.

6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence was to give me notice but I have got none yet.

6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better.

6795. But was the debt really due for which you were summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not.

6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies of my account.

6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account for nine years.

6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?- It was always increasing.

6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick.

6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned.

6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for them sometimes, but not every year.

6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I got none until I got the whole at one time.

6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them.

6804. Were you just put off?-Yes.

6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been a little due before that, but it was very little.

6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in.

6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes.

6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to pay for them.

6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d. per line for new lines when they are ready for sea.

6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about 8 or 10?-I never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be. There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think 2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The price varies at different times.

6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for the season.

6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year.

6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that.

6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes.

6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies that I got.

6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No.

6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No.

[Page 165]

6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?- I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man; but very likely there are some who have been in the same position.

6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the whole time.

6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive.

6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor.

6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family.

6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it.

6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a cautioner, but the money I did not have.

6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one.

6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a cautioner.

6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the debt always increased.

6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault. As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea.

6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat for that season.

6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From Laurence Smith, the man I fish to.

6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with him two years now.

6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little.

6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good; but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not always equal in the same year.

6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store.

6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes.

6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr. Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the same at the one place as at the other.

6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if we were dealing there.

6838. Have you tried it there?-No.

6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr. Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the twelvemonth.

6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to supply his customers.

6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is generally the way in which they take there.

6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think they are obliged to do it.

6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then, of course, they don't need to ask money from him.

6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes.

6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr. Smith) did not have the things I wanted.

6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for Mr. Smith.

6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have, then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from another.

6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr. Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and to purchase it.

6849. Did you often do that?-Not often.

6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes.

6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and has not done much to it.

6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things that we were requiring for ourselves.

6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes.

6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house: soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way.

6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose she never asked anything else for it.

6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by your daughter?-They are generally sold by her.

6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She has no book. They are generally paid for at once.

6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him.

6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of fish as they came ashore.

6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I fished to him.

6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got cash.

6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166] several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had delivered so many fish.

6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.

6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back with the line, we got anything we required for it.

6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes. The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON, examined.

6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.

6867. Do you live there?-Yes.

6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for the last two years.

6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr. Smith.

6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.

6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.

6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.

6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man sometimes did not have it to get.

6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other years I was a good bit behind.

6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that was what made me shift from man to man.

6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted twice because I was in debt.

6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I cannot tell how long it is ago.

6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr. Williamson.

6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.

6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.

6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it with.

6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.

6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.

6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?- Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him, although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and no copy of my account.

6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.

6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as 10?-I don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.

6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.

6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies, either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.

6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.

6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?- No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.

6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been fishing for him.

6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know yet what I am to get.

6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear with him.

6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not much-a mere trifle.

6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with, either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.

6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with him.

6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never got.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON, examined.

6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I am.

6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for two years.

6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.

6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In 1868.

6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.

6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.

6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished for him.

6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted it?-No.

6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.

6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.

6908. Why?-I don't know.

6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.

6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year; but in the second year I had 10s. to get.

6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year too?-Yes.

6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in cash.

6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back and go again.

6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.

6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.

6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and such things as that.

6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I never asked for it again.

6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not give a pass-book to any one more than to me.

6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?- Yes.

6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.

6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?- Yes.

6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with bread.

6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small stores?-Yes.

6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took it home.

6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself, and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it home.

6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes, and anything I required.

6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when you came home?-I got them twice.

6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make two voyages; last year we made three.

6929. And you would be getting something additional each time you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every voyage.

6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last year I got an account for 17, and this year it was 22.

6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.

6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the year on the whole of your account?-I had 16 odds to get last year, and this year I had 10.

6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.

6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.

6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.

6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for him?-Yes, that was about the time.

6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always at school before I went to the fishing.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON, examined.

6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.

6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to the Busta estate.

6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.

6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.

6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the middle of November.

6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's ledger?-Yes.

6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.

6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.

6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.

6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr. Anderson's.

6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.

6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me to take a few supplies from him.

6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and spring.

6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?- Yes.

6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled to do so.

6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of settlement.

6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much about the same time as for the other-some time in November or December.

6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.

6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused money at any time.

6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.

6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.

6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it is.

6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my experience.

6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man should take his goods from him.

6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.

6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.

6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].

6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from 1865 or 1866 to the present time.

6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr. Anderson's book?-Yes.

6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.

6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think I was.

6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was 14, 8s. 7d.

6970. You live with your father?-Yes.

6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.

6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168] quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the country.

6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.

6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at Mr. Anderson's.

6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.

6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding something for carriage.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON, examined.

6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for some time.

6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I am living with my father.

6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for three years.

6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.

6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get from his shop?-Yes.

6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.

6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year about two months ago.

6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but it was not much.

6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year before?-I was.

6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was clear. I had something to get the year before.

6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.

6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.

6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next account?-Yes.

6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.

6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in money?-No; they don't get them in money.

6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps they may get a little money.

6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.

6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].

6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book before?-No.

6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.

6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I could not get it.

6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did not have money, and I could not get it.

6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.

7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George Henry.

7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year; and I was there three months.

7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years since I first went to it.

7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required from him at the time.

7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No, not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to get, and I got it.

7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.

7006. During that time you always had an account with your employer?-Yes.

7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.

7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr. Anderson.

7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.

7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my supplies the first year from him.

7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the haaf?-No.

7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.

7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson, I might have had my liberty.

7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not clear?-Yes.

7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I just got them from the man that I was to engage with.

7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.

7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.

7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months afterwards?-Yes.

7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?- Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year. They make up their crews then.

7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews then?-Yes.

7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in the rising year.

7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.

7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I believe there is something in that.

7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that year when I left the beach.

7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him. I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.

7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago

7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about 5 odds.

7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.

7030. Have you paid up that 5?-I have not.

7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.

7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.

7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a little of it after I got the summons.

7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.

7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.

7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.

7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.

7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.

7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.

7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.

7041. When was that?-Three years ago.

7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.

7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I cannot say exactly what the reason was.

7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for the merchant I am now with.

7045. You were a little above 5 in debt then?-Yes; between 5 and 6.

7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.

7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.

7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.

7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.

7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for the last three years. I am too old.

7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.

7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the year?-Occasionally.

7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was something due and it was put against me.

7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.

7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had my freedom; there was no compulsion.

7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.

7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have done so; but I saw no occasion for it.

7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.

7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain. It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the time came for settlement.

7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have anything to do with that.

7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.

7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were done in any other way.

7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.

7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do anything in the way of changing it.

7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't interfere with.

7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with them in any way.

7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every way they can.

7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.

7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.

7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own books and are satisfied with them.

7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle it herself?-Yes.

7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.

7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice, and it has been so all my days.

7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the price.

7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods, I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop with it.

7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.

7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?- Yes.

7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until your debt was paid?-Yes.

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7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.

7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.

7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a little cash?-No.

7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off now than they were in my young days, because at that time married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price, and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to be successful, it pays them very well.

7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.

7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe, and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.

7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four years.

7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?- Yes.

7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven voyages to Davis Straits.

7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.

7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve voyages for him.

7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was about 1850 or 1851.

7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.

7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.

7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got your advance, and could take it where you pleased.

7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick who engaged you?-Yes.

7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get 2 or 3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the book which they had to settle at that time.

7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them were sea-going clothes.

7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your families?-No; not very often.

7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all about the same.

.

Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

DAVID GREIG, examined.

7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for them at North Roe for ten years.

7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.

7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with those on the west side.

7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?- At Feideland.

7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.

7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in this parish.

7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.

7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was 193, 7s. 6d., of which 17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental charged to tenants is 176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.

7108. The 17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co. themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate on which they graze.

7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about 130 or 140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep up the property.

7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will have anything.

7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually understood so.

7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co. chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that they entered into it.

7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding. The highest is 6, and the lowest is 2, 7s. I may say that the rents on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.

7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.

7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.

7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants fishing to other curers.

7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.

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7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.

7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no consequences have followed.

7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have been none at all.

7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in this parish.

7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were four deep-sea boats from Yell.

7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.

7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large. Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.

7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No; it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as 3; but in our case it has never been above 48s.

7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.

7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat: she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.

7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are allowed to pay for them in three years.

7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the fishing.

7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co. from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.

7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had no profit by doing it.

7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.

7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70 from Northmaven, in 16 boats.

7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it was approximately about 1220.

7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That is their earnings from the fishing alone.

7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary course of business.

7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.

7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them, because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going over the accounts.

7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the men?-Yes. It will be a little over 12.

7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?- Yes.

7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the fishermen.

7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes; there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their earnings.

7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8 in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.

7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from 2 to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their chance of the fishing of these two lines.

7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.

7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads' fishing was more than their fee.

7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't think so.

7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part of the country.

7149. Then, from 1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose you would deduct 18 or 20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about 20 or 25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the average for the men much higher than I have put it there.

7150. It would leave about 13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of the men?-Yes.

7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-553 and 170 additional approximately for rent.

7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes; that is taken off their fishings.

7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about 8?-Yes; and if you deduct about 2 for each man for boat hire and provisions through the year, then the difference between the 8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to their families during the season.

7154. Adding about 2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the supplies at the fishing station, that makes the 10, and the balance of 3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the year?-Yes.

7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are all quite near.

7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.

7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop through the year, being returned to it for purchases.

7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?- Yes.

7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a single year?-It varies very much.

7160. Would it be 100 or 200?-No; I don't think it is so much as that.

7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?- They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr. John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and Hillswick.

[Page 172]

7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come back to me in turn.

7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there are six overdrawn accounts.

7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.

7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way.

7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always found it to be the best principle.

7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left the employment in consequence of being in debt.

7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.

7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.

7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an unfavourable year.

7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I think four or five years ago.

7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of years?-In two or three cases it has done so.

7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases just now.

7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was cleared off?-Yes.

7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.

7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.

7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.

7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if they were the proprietors.

7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else they would have to pay it.

7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the royalty to the proprietor.

7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp too.

7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.

7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.

7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should have the kelp shores.

7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid by them?-Yes.

7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods, and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value for it without having any profit on it.

7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in cash for it, then there would be no profit.

7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you have a profit on the goods?-Yes.

7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?- There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.

7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it for last year, when there were twelve tons.

7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales, but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was 5, 10s. per ton.

7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on board ship?-No.

7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and re-shipped again.

7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at Simbister?-Yes.

7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s. per cwt.?-I don't think it would.

7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at 4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d., and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and shipping and transhipping again.