5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.

5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by purchasing from other boats.

5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.

5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make purchases.

5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of individual cases that have come under my notice.

5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them do.

5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can hope to pay in one year.

5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in debt.

5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a boat were realizing upwards of 2 in a night. At that time a great many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about 20, or from 20 to 30, involved, and I presume they have not been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.

5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they never think of making any provision for the future. They know when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they were accused of running too far into debt.

5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.

5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the shopkeeper?-They are under his control.

5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes their energies.

5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a man being in debt paralyzes his energies.

5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready money?-The way in which I would understand the system operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large family, cannot afford to do that.

5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have spoken of.

5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they otherwise would do?-I think so.

6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods cheaper.

6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these merchants are higher than they are at others where that system does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal experience as to the difference in that respect.

6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.

6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above any difference in price. There are many articles I require which are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get such articles as are suitable for me.

6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.

6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in everything else.

6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery goods because they would get money from her for them. They often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour to get her to buy them.

6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.



Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.

6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.

6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.

6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for him in the summer season for the last six years.

6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.

6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.

6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.

6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.

6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe fishing. During that time I have had my freedom

6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.

6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily ability was one.

6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.

6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They are supposed to fish for their landlord.

6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, from hearsay.

6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give them to him.

6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.

6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered you a good wage?-[No answer.]

6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty until I inquired at my land-master.

6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: have they told you that that is the obligation under which they lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.

6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is the understanding that they must fish to the master.

6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th January.

6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.

6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man to read it for me.

6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.

6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.

6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read it to you?-I had other errands besides that.

6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.

6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.

6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.

6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.

6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid to go, and that I should tell the truth.

6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.

6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.

6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what had taken place between me and himself.

6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or documents.

6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?- Yes.

6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.

6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that. I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.

6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All that I remember.

6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated so much in some of your answers. You said the people at Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?- As I supposed.

6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them do it.

6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.

6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so that I don't know many of the people.

6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.

6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.

6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No answer.]

6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?- I believe they do; but I don't know.

6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of the men who do that.

6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My dealings are there, for the most part.

6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than Voe?-I cannot say.

6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it called thirteen miles; but I don't know.

6060. Are you married?-Yes.

6061. Have you a family?-Yes.

6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.

6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?- Sometimes.

6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick.

6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere too.

6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.

6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so far as I know.

6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled about the end of the year?-Yes.

6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally before.

6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]

6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the year from Mr. Adie?-No.

6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the year?-Yes.

6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for something over 7.

6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always.

6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not sure, but I think it is four years ago.

6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d., 1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I always got the cash when I asked it.

6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year.

6078. And you were delivering fish to Mr. Adie at the time you got that cash?-Yes.

6079. You were also to some extent in his debt?-Yes.

6080. Did he give you cash when you asked for it?-Yes.

6081. Did you get cash from him with which to pay your rent?-A little: 2.

6082. That is not marked in your pass-book?-No.

6083. Did you get it since the last entry was made in your book?- I got it before January. That is not all my account.

6084. Have you another book?-No.

6085. But there are some things which you have got which are not put in here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my book, and I have got what I asked.

6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have your pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-Yes.

6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I ask it to be done.

6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a hurry to get home.

6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they were not honest.

6091. Does Mr. Anderson send any smacks to the Faroe fishing?-

Not to my knowledge.

6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr. Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do.

6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes.

6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same reason?-I cannot answer that.

6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?- Not so far as I remember.

[Page 151]

6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know.

6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember.

6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some time before, but not long.

6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the merchant entirely?-Yes.

6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes.

6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters.

6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish.

6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait with which the fish are caught.

6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our own lines.

6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?- Yes.

6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not.

6107. The book you have produced is for your own family requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop.

6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses.

6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good towards selling. I get no selling fish.

6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes.

6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the stones.

6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four years, so far as I remember.

6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry.

6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?- About half a mile.

6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes.

6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge.

6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that.

6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?- No, I would not.

6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use comes from there.

6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book about with me.

6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to Ollaberry direct.

6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember.

6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for.

6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The money, of course, was his.

6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at Ollaberry?-I don't think there are.

6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the little steamboat or a packet which ran there.

6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.

6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.

6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in previous years in the same way.

6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't remember.

6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.

6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr. Adie to look over the pass-book.

6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.

6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.

6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.

6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my wife knits.

6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry, or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient. She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will buy them.

6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods.

6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for it.

6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No, not so far as I know.

6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at Lochend.

6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know.

6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an account of her own, so far as I know.

6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do with?-Yes.

6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr. Laurenson's?-No.

6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No.

6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is goods.

6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?- It is settled when she is able to pay it.

6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her favour.

6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything that I know.

6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-Yes; 8s. a year.

6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No.

6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?- Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked.

6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes.

6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of their land in Shetland?-Not in our district.

6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on Major Cameron's estate.

6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I suppose they could not comply with his terms.

6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes.

[Page 152]

6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my knowledge.

6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of.

6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes.

6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell.

6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine.

6164. Have you an account there?-Yes.

6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it; but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands.

6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No.

6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it.

6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes different ways of getting money.

6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as a tailor.

6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes.

6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally.

6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that.

6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take it home?-I take it home.

6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account; but if I want money, I get it.

6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr. Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always.

6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or trousers?-Yes.

6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr. Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to our credit, they would go.

6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally.

6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two they have generally been 6d.

6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes.

6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get a better price there?-So far as I know, we could.

6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I know.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON, examined.

6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the fishing station at Stenness.

6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat.

6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a number of years.

6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs. Cheyne's.

6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta.

6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any man, and I have always been so.

6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?- Yes; I always keep my own account myself.

6190. Have you a pass-book?-No.

6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have.

6192. Do you generally get your supplies and provisions from him?-I do; but I buy my provisions where I think I can get them cheapest. I am not bound to get my provisions from him.

6193. Do you find they are as good at Hillswick as you can get them anywhere else in the country?-I find that I cannot get much profit or advantage by going even to Lerwick to buy my goods, more than by buying them at Hillswick. I could not get so much profit as would pay me for my trouble.

6194. Have you bought meal at both places?-I generally buy very little meal.

6195. Do you get enough meal off your own ground to serve you?-Generally I do. I have a pretty good farm-just as much as will hold us in meal.

6196. How far do you live from Hillswick?-About four English miles.

6197. When you go to Stenness, do you get your supplies there?- Yes; the supplies that are required for the fishing.

6198. You keep an account for these with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.

6199. And that is balanced every year?-Yes; I settle once a year-perhaps in November.

6200. Have you generally a balance to get in cash?-Generally I have.

6201. How much did you get last year?-I don't know; the amount differs yearly.

6202. But how much had you to get last year?-I don't know. Perhaps I had 20 to get from him.

6203. Was that the balance which was due to you?-Yes; I suppose I got 20 of cash from him last year.

6204. Was that the whole price of your fish, or was it the balance which you got in cash?-It was the balance I got in cash.

6205. Do you think many of your neighbours got much?-I don't know, for I don't interfere with any man's accounts.

6206. Are you a skipper?-Yes.

6207. Have you any idea whether any of your men are as well off at the end of the year as you are?-I think so.

6208. Are most of them as well off?-I think so.

6209. You don't hear them talking about having balance against them?-No, I don't hear much about that. It does not lie in my way to interfere with it.

6210. Do you think the fishermen are better off now than they used to be long ago?-I think they are a great deal better off. I know I am much better off than ever my father was.

6211. How does that happen?-Because my father was a bound man, and had to fish at a very low price before he could be a tenant; but being a free man, I pay my rent on a day, and I serve any man I choose, and make the best bargain for myself that I can.

6212. Would you be better off if you knew before settling time what you were to get for your fish at the end of the year?-I know the price of the fish about settling time.

6213. But you don't know it until settling time?-No. I might be worse off if I knew it sooner, because I might get a lower figure, as the merchant could not be sure then what he would get for his fish. The price of fish in the south varies yearly.

6214. Who fixes the price at the end of the season?-I am not able to answer that exactly.

6215. What is your bargain about it?-I have had no particular bargains with the fish-curer; but there is an understanding that I have to get the highest currency of the country.

6216. Do you know how that is settled?-I don't; or if I have heard it, I did not understand.

6217. You don't know how it is found out what the highest currency is?-No; I cannot answer that exactly.

[Page 153]

6218. Who tells you what it is?-It is publicly known at settlement what is to be paid for the fish. We know what every man pays, and what the dry fish can realize.

6219. Is Hillswick the nearest shop you can go to for your goods?-It is the nearest shop that I can go to to get good goods. There are small articles sold nearer, but Hillswick is the only shop.

6220. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day to give evidence?-Nobody told me; but I heard that this was the day on which the evidence was to be given.

6221. Who told you that?-I don't remember now who told me. I think there was a lad from Hillswick who told me about it two days back.

6222. What was his name?-Arthur Sandison.

6223. What does he do?-He is the shopkeeper here for Mr. Anderson.

6224. And he told you to come here?-He told me this was the day when the evidence was to be taken, and that it was to be a public meeting. I understood something concerning it, and I came here voluntarily. There was no man who instigated me to come.

6225. Did Sandison not tell you that you had better come?-I don't remember him saying that I had better come or not; but, however, no man instigated me to come. I did not require to be cross-questioned to come; I just came freely of my own consent.

6226. You said the fishermen are better off now than they used to be: can you tell me any difference there is upon their condition?-I told you already that they were bound men before, but they are not so now with me.

6227. Is there anything else in which they are better off?-Yes; I think a free man is better in every point of view than a bound man.

6228. Do you think the men get a better price for their fish now?- I think they are getting double now for their fish what they were getting about fifty years back, or perhaps forty years.

6229. Do you know that from your father?-No; I know it from my uncle's accounts. He was a factor at Stenness; and I see from his accounts what the price at Stenness was then, and I know what it is now, and can see the improvement.

6230. Have you got his accounts?-I have. I have looked into them at home.

6231. What kind of accounts are they?-Factor's accounts.

6232. Do they show the price of the fish, or just the quantities delivered?-They show the price paid to the fishermen, and also the price of meal and other articles.

6233. What was the price of fish in those accounts?-It was as low as 4s. per cwt. for green fish.

6234. And it is now about double?-Yes.

6235. Do you remember the price of meal then?-Meal was sometimes very high. I remember seeing meal charged at 12s. per lispund of 32 lbs. This season it has been 5s. 4d.

6236. But sometimes it is higher?-Yes; the price of meal varies continually, just as it does in the south market. I don't think there is much advantage on that score.

6237. You don't think there is much difference on the price of meal, but on the price of fish there is a great difference?-Yes.

6238. Is there anything else you are able to tell me about the subject of this inquiry?-I don't think so.

6239. Have you any boys engaged at fish-curing work?-I had one boy engaged at it during the past season. He was in Mr. Adie's service at Stenness.

6240. Mr. Adie keeps a shop there during the fishing season?- Yes; to supply the fishermen with any necessaries during the time of the fishing.

6241. Does your boy keep an account at that shop?-He has only been employed for one season, and I kept his account and settled for him myself. He is quite a young boy-only thirteen years of age.

6242. Do you think it is better for you to do that than to allow him to have an account of his own?-He is not capable of keeping accounts yet. He has had no education for that.

6243. Had he no separate account in Mr. Adie's shop?-It was a mere trifle.

6244. Was he paid his balance?-Yes; it was paid at once in cash. Mr. Adie paid it to me.

6245. Is that a usual way of doing with the beach boys?-I think every one who had cash to get got it at once, and the man who was careful would get his cash at once. If I had 50 to get from the fish-curer, I would get it handed to me at once. I say that from my own personal experience; and that is always so with careful men.

6246. Then you are a successful man, and I daresay you have a large balance at your bank account?-I have too large a family to have a large balance there. I require a great deal of money for my family.

6247. Have you ever gone to the Faroe fishing?-I have only been a ling fisher.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, HENRY WILLIAMSON, examined.

6248. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.

6249. Do you hold some land on Mrs. Cheyne's estate?-Stenness is the station where we fish; and the farms we hold under crop, and where we live, are near it, at Tangwick.

6250. Your land is on the Busta estate, and you pay your rent to Mr. Gifford?-Yes.

6251. Are you free to fish to anybody you like?-Yes.

6252. For whom do you generally fish?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for twenty-three years back.

6253. Do you get your goods at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick?-Yes, for the most part, or anywhere else I choose.

6254. Is there any other shop in the neighbourhood where you get goods?-Yes, occasionally. There is a shop at Ollaberry; and there is a store of Mr. Adie's at Stenness, kept by a factor during the fishing season.

6255. Are there also some small shops in the country?-Yes.

6256. Do you sometimes get goods from them?-Yes; if I require them, and if it is convenient for me.

6257. But most of your dealings are at Hillswick?-Yes, because it is near hand.

6258. Is it as handy a place for you as any?-Yes.

6259. Do you keep an account there?-Yes.

6260. Is it settled at the end of the year, when you settle for your fish?-Yes.

6261. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year in cash?-Yes, for the most part I have.

6262. How much?-It varies very much, according to the fishing. We had a good season this year, and consequently we had a good return.

6263. But sometimes you have a balance against you?-I have not had that for some time back. When the fishing is good, of course a careful man will be able to save money.

6264. Is it five or six years since the balance was on the wrong side for you?-It is between twelve and twenty years since I was due anything; but I found no difference in the man I was serving, when I required money in advance then, than I do now when I have money of my own to get.

6265. Do you get cash in the fishing season when you ask for it?- Yes; whenever I asked for it, even when I had to ask for it in advance, I got it.

6266. Are you quite satisfied with the goods you get at the shop?- I am quite satisfied both with the qualities I receive, and with what is charged for the goods I require.

6267. Would it do you any good to have the price of your fish fixed at the beginning of the year, so that you would know what you were to get for them?-I am convinced that it would be a great disadvantage to the fishermen at large in Shetland; and that was partly [Page 154] what brought me here, when I heard there was to be a meeting. I knew little about it until I came here, but I thought I was called upon to come and give you my views upon it truly. I think the present system in Shetland has done better for the fishermen than any new system would do which could be brought in; and I think I know about it, because I have been at the ling-fishing for fifty-four years.

6268. Have you always had your price fixed according to the currency at the end of the year?-Yes. We only know our price some time before settling time, and I suppose we are paid according to the current price which rules in the south market.

6269. Do you think the price is always fairly enough fixed according to the sales which the fish-merchants have made?-I think so.

6270. Do other people not think so?-I don't know. I hear very little said about that; and as to that, I would not regard much what others said. I would have more regard to my own views.

6271. But have you heard complaints made about that?-I have no doubt I have heard them. It is a very common thing for us to hear people complaining.

6272. Is it the men who are bound to fish that are more apt to complain?-No doubt it is; but I am quite convinced, as I have already said, that any change in the system will not benefit the labouring men.

6273. Why?-Because I think they are fully as well served now as they could be. Those who are not able to pay at the time for what goods they require are dealt fairly with, and are never brought to a stand.

6274. Then you think it is an advantage for the fishermen, in a bad season, to be able to get an advance in order to carry them through until the following year?-I know it is, because, although I have never been one farthing in debt, yet there are many men with families who I know, if it had not been for the kindness of the merchant or his factor in giving them advances, would never have been able to carry through, because they had no means of their own, and their families did not support them.

6275. Are there many men you have known of that kind who have been carried through the season by the advances of the fish-merchant?-A great many in some seasons, but not at present. These have been fine years for Shetland.

6276. But some seasons ago, when the fishings and the crops were not so good, were there many such men?-About twenty years ago there were plenty of them.

6277. Were there many of them five years ago?-I don't know that there were so many of them then. There was a bad season a short time ago; but it is turned twenty years now since there were such bad times in Shetland, and the people were carried through then chiefly by the kindness of the merchants for whom they worked.

6278. They got advances on their accounts just in the same way as you would get your cash paid to you, if the merchant were due it to you?-Yes; and not only that, but I know that the curers often paid their rents for them in cash in advance, although I did not have much experience of that myself.

6279. Were these advances generally made in money, or in articles which the men wanted out of the shop?-Generally in goods.

6280. When a man wanted food or provisions, I suppose he would generally get them advanced to him out of the fish-merchant's shop?-Yes; or any place where it would be most convenient.

6281. But you say that in these bad years, when a man was behind, it was the fish-merchant who carried him through?-It was. They were carried through merely by the agency of the fish-curer.

6282. Did the fish-curer carry them through by giving them money with which to pay their rent?-No; the curers brought in sufficient meal to serve their purposes.

6283. And that meal was sold at the merchants' shops, and put to the account of the men?-Yes.

6284. Was that done with clothing too?-Yes, clothing, and whatever they required to get.

6285. But all that was done by these merchants in the confidence that the men would pay them, if they were able, by the next year's fishing?-No doubt they were repaid in some cases, but in some cases the repayment was very slow. That depended altogether upon whether the times turned out favourable.

6286. Do you know any of the men who were helped through in that way?-I have no doubt I know them, but I have no interest to say much about them. I don't want to enter into that matter at all. I am getting well advanced in life, and I don't want to speak about my neighbours' affairs.

6287. Were there many of your neighbours who were carried through in that sort of way?-There were a great many of them who required supplies.

6288. Did it take a great many years to carry some of them through, and to enable them to pay up what had been advanced to them?-I cannot tell how their accounts may be standing at present.

6289. Then you only suppose that some of them may have been able to pay up their debt in the course of the following year?-I know they did so; and I might take myself as a specimen of that.

6290. But you said that you have not required any advance for many years back?-Certainly.

6291. Do you think that within the last ten or fifteen years there have been many men who have required to be carried through in that way?-I don't know. Probably there may have been, but I have not been requiring that for myself.

6292. But you have been speaking about your neighbours, and you say it is an altered time with them?-It is, even within the time you have mentioned.

6293. Do you think some of them, within that time, may not have been able to pay their arrears in the course of next season?-I cannot exactly say.

6294. But you have said so?-Well, it would rather appear so.

6295. You think they may have been so much in debt, that it required more than one year for them to pay it up?-It is very probable that may have been the case.

6296. Have you any boys engaged on the beach?-No.

6297. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; they are always working away at it.

6298. Where do they sell their hosiery?-At different shops.

6299. Do they go to Lerwick with it?-Sometimes.

6300. Are they paid for it in goods?-I don't know. I don't inquire much about it.

6301. Have they got accounts of their own?-Yes; they keep their own accounts.

6302. Do they help you to keep the family?-I am not requiring it. I can keep my wife and myself; and my two daughters knit to provide themselves with what they want. I never inquire whether they get part cash for what they sell or knit.

6303. Do they clothe themselves by their own knitting?-Yes.

6304. Do they never help you to buy provisions for the family at all?-They work very hard at it, but I do not require them to bring any food into the house. I can buy it myself.

6305. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day?-No; I came to Hillswick on an errand to Mr. Anderson's shop, and I heard that the meeting was to take place to-day. Mr. Sutherland also told me about it.

6306. When did you hear about it first?-I can't exactly say. I heard about it some time in the course of yesterday, but I cannot say who told me. I told then that there was to be a meeting on Thursday at the school-house.

6307. Do you not remember who told you?-No.

6308. Were you told about it at Stenness?-Yes; I was told about it in the place where I live.

6309. But you don't remember who first mentioned it?-I do not.

6310. Are you sure you don't remember?-Yes; [Page 155] I can't remember exactly who told me, for I just heard the story among the public.

6311. Was that among the public at Stenness?-Yes.

6312. Was there not some one from Hillswick who brought the news to you?-There may have been, for anything I know.

6313. Was it some of your own family who told you-No. I heard it down at the station, where the boats come in from the sea.

6314. Was Mr. Sandison there?-Arthur Sandison was at Stenness on Tuesday.

6315. Did you see him then?-I did. There were some affairs that he and I had to manage, because he is Mr. Anderson's factor in summer, and I have to do with curing fish for Mr. Anderson in winter.

6316. Did Sandison tell you about the meeting?-No.

6317. Are you sure of that?-Yes.

6318. Did you not speak to him about it on Tuesday?-I don't remember whether we said much about that, or anything about that at all. There are various things that I may have exchanged words about with him which I don't remember.

6319. Then you may have been speaking to him about it on Tuesday?-No; I had not heard any word about it on Tuesday.

6320. Are you able to say that Sandison did not speak to you about it on Tuesday?-I don't recollect him speaking about it at all.

6321. Do you swear that you did not speak to Sandison on Tuesday about this meeting?-I would not be safe to answer, because my memory might not hold good. Recollection gets short when age comes on, and I would not care for swearing to that.

6322. You say it was only yesterday that you heard about the meeting?-Yes.

6323. Can you swear you did not hear of it before yesterday?-I swear that I don't recollect of hearing about it before yesterday.

6324. Is it possible you may have been speaking to Sandison about it?-I may have done so; but if I did, I have completely forgotten about it.

6325. Do any of your family work at kelp?-Yes; my daughters work at it.

6326. What do they get for that?-I suppose the price varies.

6327. Do they gather the sea-weed and make the kelp themselves, and sell it?-Yes.

6328. What do they get for it per cwt.?-I cannot tell. I think the price is 4 or 4, 10s. per ton; but I am not very sure.

6329. Do you know how that is paid to them?-They are paid in cash if they ask for it.

6330. But they have accounts of their own?-Yes.

6331. Who do they sell it to?-I think they sell it to Mr. Anderson.

6332. And it will be settled for when they settle their accounts?-I believe so.

6333. Do you know if there is any difference in the price of kelp, according as it is paid in goods or in cash?-I don't know, for I have never inquired about that.

6334. You said that a number of your neighbours had been carried through by the fish-merchant when they were in arrear from the badness of the season, and you also said that you knew a great number who had been so carried through?-Yes, a good many.

6335. Have you any objection to tell me their names?-I don't know whether I could call their names to recollection.

6336. I asked you to tell me their names in private, and you objected to do so; but I now ask you upon your oath whether you remember the names of any such men?-I don't think I could tell any of their names now. I would know their names quite well at the time when they were getting what they were requiring, but I cannot name any of them now.

6337. Is that because you don't remember them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, Mrs. MARY HUGHSON, examined.

6338. Are you the wife of Andrew Hughson, a fisherman and tenant here?-Yes; he is a tenant to Mr. Gifford on the Busta estate.

6339. Where do you live?-At Hillswick.

6340. Is your husband a fisherman?-He is a day labourer for the most part, and does land-work. He has been at the fishing, but not lately.

6341. Is he too old to go to the fishing now?-No; but he has been used to work on the land.

6342. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Very little.

6343. Do you knit any at all?-I knit for the family.

6344. Don't you sell your hosiery?-I have not sold much here. It is not very long since we came from Lerwick.

6345. Did you use to sell it there?-Sometimes.

6346. Were you always paid for it in goods?-Yes.

6347. Did you want to get cash for it?-No, I never asked cash.

6348. Do any of your daughters knit hosiery here?-Yes; and they sell it in Lerwick, as they were born there.

6349. Do they always go to Lerwick with it?-No; they sometimes sell it to Mr. Anderson at Hillswick.

6350. Do they always get goods for it?-Yes.

6351. Do they want cash?-They don't ask for it; it is not the custom.

6352. Are they quite content to take the price in the goods they want?-I suppose so.

6353. Do they also work at kelp?-Yes, in some way, we all work at kelp.

6354. How do you sell it?-We get 4s. 6d. per cwt. for it from Mr. Anderson.

6355. How are you paid for it?-We are paid in whatever we may ask for, in meal or tea, or goods of any kind.

6356. The way in which the kelp trade is carried on is, that you gather the kelp yourselves, and burn it and sell it?-Yes.

6357. Have you to pay for the privilege of gathering it?-We pay nothing.

6358. Can you sell it to any person you like?-There is no person buying it here except Mr. Anderson.

6359. How do you settle about your kelp? Have you an account in Mr. Anderson's books?-We get what we want, and pay for these goods with the kelp, and then anything we take out additional goes into the account for another year.

6360. Do you only settle once a year?-Yes.

6361. Do you always get 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it?-Yes; I got 5s. per cwt. some years ago, but the price is lower now.

6362. How long, in the course of the year, do you work at the kelp?-We work at it while the season is dry-from Whitsunday till the 1st August.

6363. During that time how many cwts. will you and your daughters gather?-Some years less, and some years more. We will sometimes have about 2 worth.

6364. That will be about half a ton?-Yes.

6365. Did you take the price of that in goods?-We took some part of it in clothes, and some part in meal or tea, or just what we required of money articles.

6366. What do you mean by money articles?-Groceries, or meal or bread, or anything of that kind.

6367. Why do you call them money articles?-Because it is not often that they are got for hosiery or anything of that sort.

6368. Is it a common way of speaking here, to call groceries money articles because they are not given for hosiery?-Tea is sometimes given for hosiery, and bread and meal. They will give a certain quantity of these money articles for hosiery if they are asked for.

6369. Is there a less price given for the hosiery if it is paid in money, or in money articles?-I don't know; I never asked or received money, for hosiery either here or elsewhere.

[Page 156]

6370. Is there a different price for kelp according as it is paid in money or in goods?-I have heard it said that it is 4s. in money, or 4s. 6d. in goods.

6371. Have you always got the price of it in goods?-Yes.

6372. Did you never get money for your kelp at all?-No; I never asked money, and I never got it.

6373. When is the kelp settled for?-We settle for it when we sell it.

6374. Do you sell it all in a lump at the end, or at different times during the season?-Perhaps we sell it every time we burn it, and we settle for it then.

6375. Do you go to the shop and say how much you have?-Yes. We tell the merchant how much we have, and he takes us in and pays us for it then.

6376. Is there anything marked into a book about it?-Nothing. We get payment for it when we sell it. If we are due anything to the merchant, he takes it off the price, and then we get the balance in whatever way we want.

6377. Do you take the whole value of it at the same time?- Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6378. How do you know whether you are due anything at the time?-We ascertain that from the books.

6379. Is there an account in your name in Mr. Anderson's books?-Yes; and if there is anything over at the end of the season, we get it.

6380. Is it paid to you in cash at the end of the season?-Yes; if there is anything due at the end of the season, we get it in cash.

6381. Have you ever got any cash from him at the end of the season?-I never asked it, because I just cleared off with him; and perhaps there was nothing due to me.

6382. Do you think you would be any better if you were paid in cash?-I don't know. I am getting so far on in years, that it is not much cash I would have to get now.

6383. Do you and your daughters agree to keep the same account?-Yes; the account is generally in my name.

6384. Who does your husband work for?-He has been at the fishing, and he has been doing land-work for different people. He was working last summer to an Orkney man, who was over here at the building of the church.

6385. Does he work at farm-work, or how?-He just works at day-work, or lime-work, or anything he can get.

6386. Is he a stone-mason?-He is just a day labourer; he is not a mason.

6387. Do you keep an account at the shop at Hillswick for all your provisions and all the soft goods you want?-I have no account there just now.

6388. But you say that you are paid for your kelp by being settled with in an account?-Yes; we are paid off then for what is due to us, and there is no other account kept until the following year.

6389. You say you have never asked to be paid in money: is it all the same to you whether you are paid in money or in goods?-It is all the same.

6390. Do you swear that it is all the same to you?-It has been the custom to pay in goods, and there is no other place we could go to where we could get the money, besides if we got the money, we would just give it back into the shop that was handiest.

6391. Did you tell any person that you were afraid to come here today?-No, I was not afraid to come.

6392. Did you get any advice from any person about speaking the truth when you came here?-No.

6393. Are you sure about that?-I came to speak the truth when I swore to do it.

6394. But before you came, did you say anything to any one about being afraid to come, and were you advised to speak the truth?-I know to speak the truth.

6395. But did you say anything to any person about being afraid to come here?-I cannot recollect. I said to Mr. Sutherland that I wondered there were no other women asked to come besides me because there are plenty in the place. Mr. Sutherland asked me if I got money for anything; and I said I never did, and that I never asked it either for knitting or for kelp. I told him that if I had asked it I did not know what might have been done; but I never did ask it, and Mr. Anderson knows himself that I never asked money for knitting. But when I was asked to come here, I was nowise afraid to come and tell the truth.

6396. Did you say to any one that you did not like to come, for fear of the merchant?-No, I did not say I was afraid for the merchant.

6397. What did you say about the merchant?-I said I did not know why other people should not come as well as me, and that I wondered why no other women were summoned but myself.

6398. Did Mr. Sutherland advise you to speak the truth when you come, and not be afraid?-I spoke to Mr. Sutherland, and told him I did not know where I had to come.

6399. Did Mr. Anderson speak to you about coming here this morning? Did you see him to-day?-Yes, I saw him, and I spoke to him here.

6400. What did he say to you?-Mr. Anderson told me to bring my pass-book, whatever state it was in; but it has not been used for some years.

6401. Was that it pass-book for the kelp?-Yes, it was it pass-book for the goods that were used for the family.

6402. Had you a pass-book some years ago?-Yes; it is in the house.

6403. But you don't enter your purchases in that pass-book now?-No.

6404. Do you generally buy what you want at Mr. Anderson's shop?-Yes.

6405. What do you buy there?-Meal or tea, or whatever I am needing.

6406. How do you pay for that? Do you pay in money?- Sometimes in money and sometimes in knitted things or in work which my husband does.

6407. Does your husband work for Mr. Anderson?-Sometimes.

6408. When he works a day's work to him, does he get his money for it, or is it put down in the account?-It is put down in the account.

6409. But you said you had no account?-Well, I have no account.

6410. Has your husband an account?-Yes; when I said I had no account, I meant that I had no account for kelp and hosiery, but there is an account in my husband's name.

6411. And when he works for Mr. Anderson, his day's work is put down in the account?-Yes.

6412. What does he work at?-Stone-work, or any other kind of house-building.

6413. Is that account settled in money or goods?-In goods. I don't believe he has ready money to get; he is due something.

6414. Is he generally due something?-Yes; he has been due something for a while.

6415. Is it generally for Mr. Anderson that he works?-Only sometimes.

6416. When he works for other people, is he paid in money?- Yes; when he works for Mr. Sutherland, or any man who has no shop, he gets ready money.

6417. But if he works for any one who has a shop, is he paid in goods?-He does not work for any one who has a shop, except Mr. Anderson.

6418. And he is not paid in money for that because he is due Mr. Anderson an account?-His work is put into the account, and he gets what he needs for the house.

6419. How many years has he been in that position?-I cannot say; I have not been settling for him.

6420. Has he been working in this neighbourhood for a number of years?-Yes; we came here from Lerwick about 1858.

6421. When did you begin to get into debt?-I cannot say, because my husband was at the fishing then.

6422 Is it long since he got into debt?-It is some years; but I cannot say how many, because I have not been settling his account.

[Page 157]

6423. Is his account settled every year?-Yes.

6424. At what time?-About Martinmas or the 1st November, just at the time when the fishermen are settled with.

6425. Do you know that there is generally a balance against your husband at the end of the year?-Yes.

6426. How much will that balance be?-I cannot say.

6427. Although there is that balance, you can still get what you want from the shop in the way of provisions or clothing?-Yes; when he is working for Mr. Anderson.

6428. Is he at liberty to work for any person here who will give him the highest wage?-Yes.

6429. There is no interference with him in respect to that?-No.

6430. Then it was your husband's pass-book that Mr. Anderson referred to when you came here today?-Yes; I told him I did not have it, but he said I should have brought it.

6431. But it is a good many years since anything was put into that pass-book?-It is.

6432. Is it your fault that the things were not entered?-He was not working for Mr. Anderson for some time about the time when the book was stopped. We were buying our meal and other things at some other place and we were not keeping regular accounts then.

6433. Why did you not put your things into the pass-book when you began again to deal at Hillswick? Could you not be bothered?-I don't know.

6434. Did you ask for a pass-book then?-No.

6435. Is your husband here?-No; he is off fishing at the long lines to-day.

6436. Is he one of a boat's crew there?-Yes.

6437. How many are there in that boat's crew?-I think there are four.

6438. Have they gone to fish on their own account?-Yes; they are just trying to get some fish for the house.

6439. He is not going to sell them?-No; he has not been in the habit of doing that.

6440. Are all the fish he catches in winter used for your own house?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, EUPHEMIA PETERSON, examined.

6441. Do you live at Hillswick with your father and mother?- Yes.

6442. Is your father a fisherman?-Yes.

6443. Has he a bit of land?-Yes.

6444. Do you sometimes knit?-Yes; it is not very much I knit; the most of it is for my father and brother.

6445. Do you sometimes sell your knitting?-Sometimes.

6446. Where do you sell it?-At a place called Hillyard, on the other side of Roeness Hill, to Laurence Smith.

6447. How are you paid for it?-I get perhaps 16d. or 18d. for a spencer.

6448. Do you get that in money?-No; in goods.

6449. What kind of goods?-Cotton.

6450. How many spencers will you take to Mr. Smith at a time?- Sometimes I only take one. I had three spencers with me the last time I went, at 16d. apiece.

6451. That was 4s. What did you get for that?-I bought 41/2 yards of white cotton; nothing else.

6452. Was that all you were to get for the 4s., or are you to go back again?-No; I just got it all in cotton.

6453. You had not an account there?-No.

6454. Was it common white cotton you got?-Yes.

6455. Do you remember what was the price of it per yard?-I don't remember.

6456. How long is that ago?-It is about three weeks ago, or perhaps more.

6457. Was the cotton a thing which you wanted at the time?-Yes.

6458. What did you do with it?-I made petticoats and other things with it.

6459. Was it fine cotton?-It was sheeting cotton.

6460. Do you never get money for your knitting at any time?-No; I never asked money for it.

6461. Do you knit with your own worsted?-Yes.

6462. Do you make the worsted yourself out of the wool of your own sheep?-Yes.

6463. Do you work at kelp?-I have been at it three times, but I am not working at it now.

6464. Did you sell the kelp yourself?-No. I wrought last with Maria Sandison, and we got 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it from Mr. Anderson.

6465. Were you paid by Mr. Anderson for the kelp you had made, or did Maria Sandison get the money for you?-She got it.

6466. Then you don't know how the price was settled?-No.

6467. Did you get money for your share of it?-Yes. I got 2s. 6d. one time; at another time I got 3s.; and I don't recollect what I got the other time.

6468. Did you get that money from Maria?-I got a line for it. I did not get any money, but I got goods for the line.

6469. I thought you said you got money?-They will give money if we ask for it, but I did not ask for the money.

6470. What did you ask for?-I took goods for it-cotton.

6471. Did you want the cotton?-Yes.

6472. Did you get the money from Maria Sandison?-No. She gave me a note, and I took it to the merchant.

6473. What was the note?-Just a bit of paper with some writing put down upon it.

6474. Was it signed by anybody?-It would be signed by the shopkeeper.

6475. And you took that to the shop and got what you wanted?- Yes.

6476. How much did you get?-I don't remember.

6477. How long ago is that?-I don't remember.

6478. Did you ever get any money for your kelp at all?-I never got any money; I never asked it.

6479. Why do you say that you never asked it?-Because I was just needing the cotton, and I took it.

6480. But why do you say that you never asked for it? Do you mean that you would have got it if you had asked?-Yes; I might have got it.

6481. How do you know?-There are some who have got it when they asked for it, but I never did.

6482. Do most of the women get money for their kelp?-I cannot say.

6483. What does your father do with his eggs?-He sells them.

6484. Have you a great quantity of eggs to sell?-Yes; in summer we have a good many.

6485. How many will you have in a week?-I cannot say.

6486. Do you generally take them to sell?-Sometimes.

6487. How many will you take at a time?-Perhaps a dozen or half a dozen.

6488. What do you get for them?-We sometimes get 6d. a dozen, but we have got 7d. We got that in the past summer.

6489. Do you get money for that?-We never take it in money; we just take in goods.

6490. Is that the way all the people hereabout do with their eggs?-I think it is the way that most of them do with them.

6491. Where do you take them to?-Sometimes to Mr. Anderson's, and sometimes to Laurence Smith's.

6492. Is Smith's farther away than Anderson's?-Yes; it is about two miles from us.,

6493. Do you get the same price from both places?-I got a halfpenny more from Laurence Smith.

6494. But the price was paid to you at both places in goods?-Yes.

6495. What kind of goods do you get for your eggs?-I cannot say; sometimes we take tea.

[Page 158]

6496. Do you just get the goods when you go, or is there an account kept?-We just get them when we go. We have no account at all.

6497. Is your father here to-day?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON, examined.

6498. You are a merchant and fish-curer in Hillswick?-I am.

6499. And you are the proprietor of the estate of Ollaberry?-No; I am only tacksman.

6500. Is Ollaberry in Northmavine parish?-Yes.

6501. Your brother, I understand, is proprietor of that estate?- Yes.

6502. Do you carry on business at Hillswick under a firm or in your own name?-In my own name.

6503. I presume the way in which you arrange for the payment of your fishermen is similar to that which prevails in other parts of Shetland-viz. that the fisherman engages to fish for you for the season at the summer fishing, and to receive payment for his fish in winter at the price then current after the sales have been made? -Yes.

6504. Is it the case also that the way in which you keep accounts with your fishermen is that a ledger account is opened in name of each man, in which the entries on one side consist of advances made to him for the purpose of outfit and lines, boat-hire when the boat is not his own, or for the price of the boat if he is buying it by instalments?-Yes.

6505. And on the other side is entered the price of his fish, and anything else that may be due to him by you?-Yes.

6506. Is there any further explanation you desire to make about the way in which these arrangements entered into and carried out between you and your fishermen?-I think that is all, except the inducement I have held out to fishermen to buy their own boats and lines. My practice for several years past has been that when they bought their own boats and lines, and were free of debt, I allowed them 6d. a cwt. extra on their fish.

6507. That is to say, that a fisherman who hires his boat, or one who is paying up the price of his boat by instalments, or who is in debt, is paid for his fish 6d. a cwt. less than one who is not in your books for boat-hire or for the price of his boat?-Yes.

6508. Is that intended as an inducement to a man to get clear of his boat-hire or of debts of that sort?-Yes, it was so intended by me.

6509. How long has that system been in operation?-I think since 1864.

6510. Have many of the fishermen got clear of their debts in consequence of that inducement, so far as you can judge by your experience?-I think so.

6511. You think that system has had a beneficial effect?-I think so, judging from the diminution of the debts. I have taken the last four years, and struck an average with regard to that.

6512. You have made a calculation applying to the last four years, showing what?-Showing the degree in which the fishermen have reduced their debts. I don't have that calculation with me here.

6513. Was it made for your own private use?-Yes. I wanted to see whether I was correct in giving the fishermen that advantage, and I found that the average amount to which the fishermen were in debt was 13 each year.

6514. Was that an average only of those who were in debt?-Yes.

6515. And your calculation showed that the average debt of each fisherman was 13 this year?-Not this year, but taking the average for four years.

6516. I understood it was entered into for the purpose of comparison with the period before the system you have now mentioned was introduced?-No. The calculation I made was for the purpose of satisfying myself whether I was correct in giving that 6d. per cwt. in advance extra.

6517. Then do you find that the fishermen who are in your debt now were indebted to you to the amount of 13 on an average?- Yes.

6518. Are you of opinion that that is a less amount of debt per man than existed before that system introduced?-I am.

6519. Did you enter into any calculation over period of years before the introduction of the system, in order to compare it with the state of matters during the last four years, or have you made that comparison just from your general knowledge?-Just from my general knowledge. I did not make the calculation so accurately for the previous period as for the last four years.

6520. But you are clearly of opinion that the amount of debt before that system was introduced was greater than it is now?-I am clearly of that opinion.

6521. How many of the men do you calculate are now in your debt to that average extent?-I am not able to answer that question exactly.

6522. Can you not give an approximation to the number?-I am afraid not.

6523. How many men do you employ altogether in the ling and cod fishing in summer?-I have no cod fishing,-only ling fishing, in which I think I employ about 120 or 130 men.

6524. Is that at Hillswick, or at all your stations?-At Hillswick.

6525. But you have stations at other places?-Hillswick is the business place, but we have fishing stations at different places-at Roeness Voe, Hillyard, Hamnavoe, and Stenness.

6526. Have you none at Ollaberry?-Only in winter time. We get some fish there in winter-principally small fish, cod, and some ling.

6527. You said that you don't send men to the cod fishing?-No.

6528. How do you distinguish between the cod fishing proper and the cod which you get in winter?-There are different names for the different kinds of fishing. The Faroe fishing is a different thing from the home fishing.

6529. But some people subdivide the summer fishing into more than one kind?-There is cod fished for in the voes near the coast during the winter, but they are generally a smaller size than the Faroe cod.

6530. Is that what you call the winter fishing?-Yes.

6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to the Faroe fishing.

6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?- Yes.

6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and what they get are thin and of an inferior quality.

6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes.

6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in November or December?-Yes.

6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear.

6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your debt?-I don't think so.

6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them; there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time with them when their children are small.

6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter payments could be introduced in your business which might encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful consideration.

6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159] system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?- Yes.

6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred to you?-I don't think there is any other.

6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes by the men themselves.

6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once, any more than they would have done if it had been put to account.

6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men require it.

6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish.

6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they were really in necessity for something.

6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes.

6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?- Yes.

6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes.

6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that kind.

6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him.

6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from us.

6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general practice.

6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation whatever.

6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any difference in the way in which you would deal with him afterwards?-None whatever.

6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes.

6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive business also.

6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes.

6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a larger business than mine.

6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes.

6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe.

6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr. Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account.

6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea.

6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I believe it is.

6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say, to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station.

6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think it has ever been acted upon.

6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They generally take that liberty.

6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are weighed by your factor?-Yes.

6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies. Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear off their little bits of accounts there.

6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his present needs?-Yes.

6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps 5 or 6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season.

6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as one might suppose?-No.

6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not; although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I wished to do so.

6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present.

6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the land?-I think that is understood.

6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their bargain, but I think it is understood.

6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of, do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not very sure about that.

6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly.

6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that.

6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no objection to deal in that way.

6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think that is quite right.

6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which might not come my way.

6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?- Yes; in cattle and other things.

6584. Do you send them south?-Yes.

6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so.

6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?- Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them through the parish.

6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?- That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent, and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my debt.

6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak to it positively.

6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?- Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson & Co.

6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.

6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I do.

6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes.

6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except the fishing stations I have already mentioned.

6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish at Stenness and at Hamnavoe.

6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No.

6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that you receive fish in winter?-Yes.

6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed by you?-Probably between 50 and 60.

6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I think scarcely so many.

6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a woman's book?-Yes.

6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes.

6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you are asked?-Certainly.

6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to 10 for time summer and harvest.

6603. Do those to whom you pay 10 have charge of the curing?- Yes; I have given the whole range.

6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has charge of the curing.

6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?- Yes.

6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the end of the year?-No.

6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that.

6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with the other people employed by you?-Yes.

6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes.

6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We generally strive not to allow them to get into debt.

6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year: is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are others again who have money to get.

6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive.