In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of land-rent due on the Simbister estate were 57; but since the statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by 8, which has been paid.

3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay them in notes and gold and silver.

3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of 5 and upwards?-Yes.

3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the past year I gave cheques to the amount of 465.

3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at the bank?-I daresay they did.

3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard to the fishings?-Nothing.

3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it.

3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes.

3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you by the shipowners?-Yes.

3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their wages

3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money paid annually to each man was 11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were on an average 1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of 10, 6s. 4d, which was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and which is printed in the appendix to their report.

3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and condemn people unheard.

3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report, without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say that, they are not in accordance with the facts.

3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt.

3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay alone, I paid 1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to get.

4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to settle with them at any time during the season.

4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally. I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they want.

4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.

4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.

4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.

4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the people have more money in their hands.

4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes, it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.

4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?- Yes.

4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?- No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages and oil-money of the men.

4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that so?-Yes, that is true.

4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick- yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr. Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson & Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs. Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.

4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?- No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who would come, without regard to what part of the country he belonged to.

4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the shipowners.

4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt, because the terms of their agreement are that when they come back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they have one.

4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.

[Page 100]

4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.

4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.

4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?- Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick and get the money for them.

4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of goods from your shop?-No.

4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when the men want that to be done.

4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so. In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.

4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of their families come into town with the monthly notes when they are due and they get the money.

4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the men upwards of 10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.

4023. When that sum of 10 is paid to them, is there a standing account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year, the men's wages and oil-money came, to 221, 7s. 4d., and we had not an account standing against any of them in our books.

4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one farthing due when these sums were paid.

4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the payment.

4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No. The final release is only signed when they get their second payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s. or 15s. or 20s.

4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was made.

4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.

4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?- Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871 also.

4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'

4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives, and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time; but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.

4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of March.

4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no account running with any of these men during the period after the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the time when they settle finally until they engage again.

4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the vessel.

4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it, because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.

4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.

4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent, himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the man's friends.

4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.

4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she sends for it.

4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.

4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them, and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.

4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter better to you.

4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody who brings it.

4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.

4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these advance notes to his family.

4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.

4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.

4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?- No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.

4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your firm?-Yes.

4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.

4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain between you and the shipowners?-Yes.

4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will not increase it.

4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.

4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer period for signing the release?-Yes.

4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy. At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that regulation about settling with the men when they are landed, because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?- Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.

4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?- They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual amount paid to the men in cash.

4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by you in goods?-Yes.

4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given them any credit.

4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may have been given under monthly allotment notes.

4062. What you mean is that the 1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have given in.

4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal, and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.

4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them goods to account.

4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of the money in full when it is due. The second column in the abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and the actual money.

4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?- Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.

4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman, when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.

4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent himself?-Not that I know of.

4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner.

4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation [Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been aware of them.

4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence, nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided for in the agreement.

4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies have been made on allotment notes.

4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his wages.

4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait until the end of the month to receive her 1, 2s. 6d. she may want a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.

4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the 1, 2s. 6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require them.

4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of them have been given on allotment notes.

4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in that way as possible.

4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment notes.

4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements. If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away, it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay it after the settlement at the custom-house.

4080. Then, this total of 10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.

4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that, but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.

4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.

4083. Does the 270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.

4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?- Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of settling with the men myself.

4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the transactions?-Yes.

4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state that sum of 1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I can state just now is, that out of an average of 11, 13s. 6d., which each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three years, we only paid them 1, 7s. 2d. in goods

4087. But you cannot state that that 1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account, and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.

4088. And you cannot state that the sum of 10, 6s. 4d. was the sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's hands in cash.

4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that 10, 6s. 4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of 11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.

4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.

4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think everything has been referred to.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.

4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish.

4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him first.

4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to knit.

4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No.

4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils.

4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at the end of every month.

4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no lines, and I have not a pass-book.

4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things down in his own book, and he would not give it.

4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?- Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil.

4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any. He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter.

4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money for them?-Yes, for a little less.

4104. For how much less?-Not much.

4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got money?-No; I would be better off with the money.

4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal.

4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your knitting?-No.

4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in the turnips.

4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your father and mother?-Yes.

4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small) bit.

4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater.

4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the meal we wanted.

4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any person who would give us meal for them.

4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes.

4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes, sometimes.

4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes, when we require anything.

4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness, Sandwick.

4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from you?-No.

4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes.

4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that.

4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often.

4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes.

4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person thereabout.

4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes.

4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back.

4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No.

4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but not much.

4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then.

4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little.

4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will get a shilling and a sixpence at a time.

4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for them.

4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes.

4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?- Yes.

4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton.

4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year for meal and money?-I could not say.

4136. You will get about 6 or 7 worth of dress in the course of a year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't require it all.

4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes.

4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined.

4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?- Yes.

4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for Mr. Robert Linklater for four years.

4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.

4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes.

4143. Do you ever get money?-No.

4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he said he expected money from me, and not I from him.

4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes.

4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his goods?-Yes.

4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?- Yes.

4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several persons for oil to see to knit.

4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes.

4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons.

4151. To neighbours?-Yes.

4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given tea.

4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil.

4154. When did you do that last?-Last year.

4155. Did you do it often?-Three times.

4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?- Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted.

4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could get it from.

4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea to Mitchell Sandison for wool.

4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No.

4160. It was always tea?-Yes.

4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can get for it.

4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No.

4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No.

4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No.

4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?- Yes.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North Channerwick.

4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes.

4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes,

4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once.

4170. Did you get it?-No.

4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I wanted it for at that time.

4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes.

[Page 104]

4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes.

4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might make more of it in some other shops.

4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never got money from Mr. Linklater.

4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket, and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes, often.

4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at other things than knitting?-Yes.

4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where there were better articles.

4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's.

4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery.

4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson.

4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good.

4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr. Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy things of great value from them.

4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses. I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a splendid bargain of it for money.

4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price because it was to be paid money.

4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't think it.

4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price

4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes.

4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with money if I have it.

4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for your knitting?-No, I have never done that.

4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the use of your family?-Yes.

4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got in exchange for their hosiery?-No.

4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say any person who has done it.

4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half of it in money.

4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was refused it.

4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr. Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own worsted.

4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little.

4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes, always in goods.

4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No; because they always said they never gave money; so there was no use asking.

Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined.

4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf, Lerwick?-Yes.

4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself and sell what I have made.

4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any one.

4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in that way.

4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?- Yes.

4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in the usual way?-Yes.

4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any money.

4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally half shawls that I knit.

4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me.

4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that sort of way.

4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your knitting?-Yes, much rather.

4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed.

4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in price according to the quality of them.

4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s.

4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I would be quite content to do with that.

4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in cash than of the 16s. in goods.

4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods.

4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names of two shops.]

4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?- Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods.

4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it.

4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often.

4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I went there very often, but I have not gone for many years.

4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your 14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's.

4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my other industry.

4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to, besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers.

4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with which to pay school fees?-Yes.

4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who have.

4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them quite well.

4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange for their work.

4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time.

4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business of mine; I don't know.

4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she did not say, and I did not ask.

4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?- Yes.

4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.]

4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the Lerwick knitters especially.

4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter season.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined.

4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes.

4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie, and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes.

4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop.

4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so.

4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?- The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d.

4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another, and I think 3s. is about the lowest.

4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we get there.

4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little.

4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots.

4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons.

4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things, compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No.

4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the fishermen there yet.

4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I was connected with the fishing there.

4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick.

4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so.

4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such cases since I went there.

4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest of the year.

4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes.

4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been five months there.

.

Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined.

4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.

4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of Sumburgh.

4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that rule.

4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.]

4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes.

4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I remember. That would be in the spring of 1871.

4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier.

4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No.

4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's office.

4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No.

4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No.

4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?- No; we should like a lease.

4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106] thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf, as we say, as we should like.

4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we shall.

4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish.

4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to him in a fresh state.

4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the rule very little so that I have not been called in question.

4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of your having it?-Yes.

4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish to other parties?-No, I have paid none.

4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines; but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be warned, or might be warned, on that account.

4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh.

4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant. I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms.

4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce.

4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule came into force.

4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far as I know.

4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?- Not so far as I know.

4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is not always the same price.

4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes, for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one price for saith.

4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle. We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that time.

4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have been a month earlier.

4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I remember.

4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr. Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then.

4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes.

4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large fish you get in summer?-Yes.

4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith.

4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines, and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only difference between the kinds of fishing with us.

4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all the fishing.

4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it.

4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?- Not so far as I know.

4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?- No.

4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that kind that I remember of.

4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That was under old Mr. Bruce.

4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it.

4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr. Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.

4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us. That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.

4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay & Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally good, but there are other things there which are as good and as cheap.

4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin Henderson's.

4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile.

4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that.

4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr. Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr. Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property.

4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?- There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island, and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side.

4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but we are on the south point, so it does not much matter.

4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all in equal bondage.

4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes.

4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are.

4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107] would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr. Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.

4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.

4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do.

4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do.

4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far as I know.

4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's shop instead of from other places.

4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s. on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less, in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll.

4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs. to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll, and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was.

4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?- There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He said he made a difference in the price on account of the short weight, but I never knew what that difference was.

4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls, and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs.

4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?- When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose on weight.

4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is.

4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other places it is 35 lbs.

4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness.

4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness, while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?- Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll, there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what that difference was.

4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32 lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price.

4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at settlement.

4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle.

4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No.

4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes.

4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price.

4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known.

4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men present who can tell that.

4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or required, it slipped past me.

4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way, he has but a poor chance.

4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our shop account.

4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that time?-I cannot speak for others.

4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No.

4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember.

4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him, and found the accounts run pretty straight.

4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small note-book]

4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been anything marked against me which I have not had.

4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own handiwork.

4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your own, made as you got the articles?-Yes.

4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me the prices when I got them.

4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your private memorandum were the same as those charged against you at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth mentioning.

4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?- I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me, 'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way, there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he would not swear he was right.

4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick, and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it is 3s. a boll dearer at least.

4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an account for several years back?-Yes.

4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement, and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the price of his meal.

4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I did not know the prices until then.

4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you remembered the prices which were charged against you at settlement?-Yes.

4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869.

4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?- Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month.

4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?- Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick.

4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal with him.

4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes.

4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?- Last night.

4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these things so distinctly, as I have not compared them.

4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?- Mostly everything.

4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his property, they must fish to him.

4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr. Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly bring before you.

4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when we required it.

4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very bad season.

4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for them?-We believe so.

4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season.

4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have money to get.

4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's curers?-Yes.

4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your land?-I did not know that by experience until last year.

4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him. I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if you want him.

4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the day of the month I cannot state.

4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was before we settled,-perhaps in January.

4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my boy should take the wages that he had been offered.

4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay them tolerably well.

4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known that.

4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him.

4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought as a beach boy the previous year.

4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness.

4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay.

4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season.

4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after.

4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it. The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing, but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and search the parish for another to fill his place.

4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very common, but they do happen sometimes.

4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?- Yes.

4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in public what was said to me.

4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not know where to go if I should be turned off.

4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all he said?-Yes.

4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I knew it by his voice and tone.

4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money out of him.

4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No, he did not say that.

4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I could state.

4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept my word that he should not work for any other man if you required him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he worked for Mr. Bruce that year.

4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him; and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than 3, but he did not say how much more.

4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has been done.

4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at settlement.

4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop, or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes.

4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in name of a beach boy?-Yes.

4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15, and so on.

4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble and without a gloom.

4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife.

4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy. Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for him, and anything else he may require.

4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that point.

4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No.

4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied to them during the season than the amount of their wages at settlement?-I can say nothing about that.

4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore.

4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of the money is taken by the proprietor.

4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?- We think so.

4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted.

4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord.

4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their share of the proceeds?-Yes.

4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these occasions in the landlord's store?-No.

4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes.

4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe, so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case. Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land, the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our case worse than before.

4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for us. It cannot remedy our case.

4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?- From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning, after I have prepared it for winter.

4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at a reasonable figure.

4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate still.

4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their fishing.

4419. Do you mean that your farm does not pay its own rent from the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us for half the year.

4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent, and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to pay both the land rent and the meal.

4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our circumstances would be improved.

4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of our fishing at the same time.

4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your own price?-Yes.

4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?- We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to that.

4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves.

4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it.

4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not had a chance to cure them ourselves.

4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence Shewan is one.

4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes.

4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes.

4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing anything else. There are others who cure them besides him.

4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but that must improve his circumstances too.

4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness, also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish.

4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present who have done so.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined.

4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.

4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north.

4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?- Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know.

4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is.

4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I deliver my fish, which is called Voe.