3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island. We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current price of the country.

3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We have no lease of the island.

3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants, that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price.

3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing.

3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No.

3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop.

3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver their fish?

3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at the Skerries to the east of Whalsay.

3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes, at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that place.

3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have nothing there.

3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out Skerries?-No.

3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting, Delting, Nesting, and other places.

3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No.

3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to their families when the fishing is over.

3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the fish they take in the island that we expect to get.

3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else.

3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick, and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as to Burra answers that question.

3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one shop there.

3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with other parts of the parish.

3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and fishermen who are not tenants.

3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you, but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes.

3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very many.

3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No.

3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce, received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never.

3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely upon the proprietor.

3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing, and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay.

3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question.

3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor.

3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the produce of the fishing.

3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes.

3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the whole procedure.

3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or six years ago.

3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received their fish himself.

3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with his fish.

3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce.

3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper.

3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the men in that island 1222: would the number of men fishing for you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think there were 155 in 1870.

3662. That sum of 1222 was the amount of cash balances due to them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which, when paid, left them entirely clear in our books.

3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to me as factor separately out of that sum.

3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts.

3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes.

3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents, and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes.

3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?- Quite the same.

3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have pass-books, and some have not.

[Page 88]

3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a page for himself.

3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are entered on the one side?-Yes.

3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing.

3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them.

3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are entered in name of the company or crew.

3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the season for their fish.

3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case. They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the rest is divided among the men.

3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season the whole is added up and converted into money.

3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just according to the price of the fish for the year.

3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for market.

3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?- Yes; a different thing altogether.

3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt.

3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish.

3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market.

3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish throughout the season?-Yes.

3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally, made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the ling is sold in these months.

3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle immediately afterwards.

3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the beginning or December.

3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think they mostly all settle about November or December.

3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think we have settled with most of our fishermen now.

3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season, and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there is a reason for that: he has been out of the country.

3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the settlement does not take place until January or February?-The settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases they may as late as January or February.

3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one district before another.

3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at Whalsay?-In some districts they are later.

3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes, frequently.

3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to settle with them immediately.

3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman, for the sake of securing his services another year.

3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's services in the following year.

3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?- Yes.

3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it goes to Spain.

3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know exactly how far they can go with their fishermen.

3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?- Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at 23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt.

3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse together on the subject if they happen to meet.

3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current price?-No.

3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?- Not that I ever heard of.

3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned.

3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any such meeting.

3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of the country?-Yes.

3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know, the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry fish has been 23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same price to south-country merchants.

3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think there has been any difference this year at all.

3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum, left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not take into consideration so much the current price as the price which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was considered a very high price.

3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes 1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year.

3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a few cases.

3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the books there, and that the people are considered to be in good circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co. there.

3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances.

3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the expenses of transit.

3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say; it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere.

3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am able to judge, they are.

3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others, but they speak pretty freely to us.

3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are well paid.

3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict their advances very much. We could not allow them to get very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their advances.

3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or money either if they require it, during the course of the season.

3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the fish factor there.

3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps they go and deal with some other person; while others may have 5 or 6, or more.

3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean money advances?-They get any money they want.

3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to, and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits statement.]

3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year to be about 362?-Yes.

3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account would come to about 920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid them a larger sum of money.

3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop; and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the course of this year than we did formerly.

3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no occasion to take so large supplies.

3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?- They had better crops, and did not require them.

3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To the good fishing and the good crops.

3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick. They are quite at liberty to come here when they please.

3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year, and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money at the shop instead of entering it in the book

3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes, frequently

3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the Union Bank, which has been established longest here.

3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No; but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I believe the sum would astonish you.

3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings bank?-No.

3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing, and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed.

3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at another time not half so many.

3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver their fish to us.

3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we have the stations on the islands.

3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the curing stations, that they are much better off as they are.

3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could not go there every time they came from the fishing.

3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to the Earl of Zetland.

3746. Have you a curing station there?-No.

3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get.

3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No.

3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to our men at Scalloway.

3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago, after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every year, we got them to sign an obligation.

3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable and was laid aside, and has never been acted on.

3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us.

3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but some of them refused, and it was laid aside.

3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter.

3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was not for delivering their fish elsewhere.

3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of them; but I don't remember their names.

3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly.

3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that were imposed were returned.

3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.

3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes.

3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their fish to us still.

3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and sold to dealers there?-I am not.

3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now. The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at Faroe.

3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes.

3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co.

3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with the farm produce.

3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It may be the case, but not within my knowledge.

3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance; but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country.

3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases, but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his animal.

3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes.

3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could not mention any particular case.

3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that way?-No; we don't do it.

3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose.

3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they want anything. If they want money, they generally come here.

3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the others.

3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In the same way.

3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book in here and settle with them.

3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's accounts in Lerwick.

3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he receives from the men.

3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling with them when the other books are in use in the office.

3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at Scalloway?-Yes.

3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper at Scalloway is sent here.

3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes.

3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part.

3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not, because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay them.

3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?- Yes.

3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes.

3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases.

3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have to receive.

3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies there or here, as they find convenient.

3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their advances.

3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be necessary.

3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons, to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?- Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them meal and other things in order to keep their families alive.

3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons. Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell.

3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full.

3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so.

3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or not?-Yes.

3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?- Occasionally we have.

3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men when they wanted advances.

3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next year?-Yes.

3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes written and sometimes verbal.

3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give him money if he asked for it.

3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No. Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special advance.

3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an advance of 1 or 2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people when they want goods, go to the shop for them.

3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.

3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during the summer.

3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.

3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the money in their hands, and go away from us with it.

3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay; but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men go away with it out of the office.

3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?- No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.

3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West Sandwick.

3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.

3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.

3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the rental is about 400 or 500, and I think the number of tenants is about 120.

3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?- Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are bound to fish to us.

3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs. Henderson Robertson.

3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about 500 a year?-Yes; I think it is between 400 and 500.

3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps from 30s. to 5 or 6. There is one party who pays 65 or 70, but he is not a fisherman.

3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.

3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.

3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92] rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants, and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others; and I think we have the whole of these rights.

3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.

3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.

3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.

3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness; we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.

3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here. We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps supplies there also.

3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr. Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of fish?-I think not.

3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants, who are quite free.

3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with Mr. Bruce's fishings.

3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I think not.

3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.

3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.

3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a good change to pay them by wages.

3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are fishing at the haaf earn as much 15 or 20 as during the summer, and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.

3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about 5 per month. No one would engage them at that figure.

3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the men?-I think, for the most part, they do.

3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of the season they had earned with that boat and lines 200. The agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the end of the season.

3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not taken off each individual.

3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.

3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account separate from the accounts of the individual members of the crew?-Yes.

3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything beyond their own share.

3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?- No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at the debit of the boat account.

3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.

3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.

3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.

3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say. The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies either from us or from any other shop in the country.

3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.

3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.

[Page 93]

3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an account with such men than with others who did not deal with you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.

3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long as they're due a balance on the boat.

3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes; they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go anywhere else they like.

3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and go to another curer.

3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.

3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible, price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does happen occasionally.

3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.

3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from having too few bad debts?-Yes.

3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely to be unable to pay his own creditors.

3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all the profit, and he has none.

3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price.

3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only.

3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?- Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations.

3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a large number of fishermen?-Yes.

3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but such do happen occasionally through the islands.

3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it.

3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services to some one else.

3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100 fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of 2 or 3 or 4, and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again.

3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?- When he gets into our debt to the extent of 6 or 8, he very soon leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses and would get no return.

3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same principles as ourselves.

3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business, although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well, that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt.

3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish, which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?- Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make available.

3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods, and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount before he can carry on extensively.

3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come.

3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,- can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and while they may have got into his debt to the extent of 5 or 6 each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he has been giving them supplies all the time.

3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it throws the whole idle.

3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and getting rid of their services.

3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes.

3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a failure here for the last two or three years.

3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own, and they use their own boats and nets.

3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce; or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a bargain for them about the time they commenced.

3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes.

3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that the thing was not worth our attention.

3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing.

3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a price per cran?-Yes.

3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the end of the fishing.

3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes.

3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay them at the increased price.

3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,- would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their chance.

3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the market?-Yes.

3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us, and not fish for us another year.

3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the whole of the curers would require to agree to it.

3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we would keep clear of bad debts.

3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as possible?-He has the same inducement now.

3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?- They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the article.

3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods: could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence.

3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you will see that the variation has been extremely small.

PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive.

YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES Spring Summer Summer Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. 1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6 1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6 1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0 1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0

3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it.

[Page 95]

3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to the fishermen.

3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we were to buy for ready money.

3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods, that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the people in the trade.

3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen.

3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell for very much the same all over town.

3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I think they are very much the same.

3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would not come to us.

3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little.

3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the hosiery merchants as well as in other trades.

3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was examined into.

3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper than they do.

3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much.

3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it referred to the home fishing chiefly.

3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself.

3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get it, I will be ready to show it.

3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this year.

3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?- They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to go again.

3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands. When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come through our hands, and we had not that check upon them.

3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say, and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years. Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter.

3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal.

3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher rent than we had paid before.

3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out.

3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the same time.

3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well, that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually, others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it with when the rent time came round, and of course he would not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum, payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him. The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year.

3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas,

3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time.

3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew our lease.

3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing.

3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?- If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place.

3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96] been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra.

3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No; but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor.

3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few.

3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not.

3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum.

3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can tell you the tack-duty afterwards.

3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes.

3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they choose.

3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much fish he has purchased from all quarters.

3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot.

3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?- Yes.

3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that, within the last few years it has generally been less, where they settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when we came to arrange the men's accounts.

3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market.

3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it would.

3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they would, because they have no means for curing.

3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?- I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers. If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ children for that purpose, and members of their own family.

3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for the market.

3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who understand the process of curing-to attend to them.

3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish would realize a much less price for them than you could give him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an unmerchantable state.

3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes.

3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick, was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states, that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it.

3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes.

3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt of that clause?-Yes.

3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were two or three of them who come to me complaining about their treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to compel them to deliver their fish to him.

3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was appointed factor.

3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence.

3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know about it.

3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously.

3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him.

3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very few conversations with him on the subject.

3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in Shetland?-Perhaps it would be.

3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish than is the case now.

3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.

3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?- Perhaps so.

3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and such an obligation formerly?-No.

3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?- Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think there are only two or three of them.

3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you refer?-Yes.

3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him and offer their fish as well as his own tenants.

3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants' fish, but only a part.

3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to parties whom they appoint.,

3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also.

. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something said about it, I think it better to read it-

'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869.

'James S. Mack, Esq.

'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people.

'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear-

'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from the island or expel any such son from his home.

'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave them in a state of good repair without any indemnification.

'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While the price given is never than one shilling per hundredweight the average paid for green fish in the Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per cran below the market price is a common thing.

'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and land; while the price paid in is one shilling per hundred, other merchants paying in money <two shillings and sixpence> per hundred. To evade this obligation a regular system of deception is practised most offensive to the moral sense, and, as a consequence, few of the oysters go into the hands of the lessees.

'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money the article thus obtained.

'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees, and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people and surrounding Islanders.

'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being they pay the stipulated rent.

'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county, paying their rents in money.

'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them.

'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend, introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts in the proper training of the young.

'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan, in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them a lasting benefit.

'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through me, now solicit your sympathy and aid.

'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially welcomed by.'

That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes on it at the time, which I may read also-

'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack, S.S.C., Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of the Burra Islands under the present Tack.

'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat.

'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay 1 per annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be compelled by law to assist them?

'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens, would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however, are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to uphold their own houses.

'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue that the price allowed 'is never than one shilling per hundredweight below the average price paid for green fish in the Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per cran below the market price is a common thing.' It is so far from the truth as scarcely to be worth denial; and if the author of this statement had been desirous to get at facts, he could without difficulty have discovered that his informant, was practising a deception on him, and that the Burra people had not this evil to groan under.

'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants, themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them, with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra people would soon be little better than paupers?

'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of 200.

'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could have no objections if the balances due to them were paid.

'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago, when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have since been selling them in large quantities here and there without let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted. The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set at rest now for the remainder of the lease.

'The fifth statement appears to be, that people living in the Islands, not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined, either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants.

'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less harmless description that had not always passed through a custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they liked.

'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it happens at this very time two tenants from these islands have taken farms, and are about to remove to the land of bondage-Burra.'

3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in Burra?-Yes.

3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against that, and endeavoured to put it down.

3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it.

3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is anything.

3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think there is any smuggling going on now.

3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in Burra?-Yes, it was one reason.

3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get their goods where they like.

3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they can get supplies from other people as well.

3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and some from others.

3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they were taken up in such quantities and sent away.

3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally.

3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they take up?-No; they have not been doing it.

3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few to get now that it is no object to go in for that.

3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters from Burra.

3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that [Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows 1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 138 19 3 " Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2 " North Roe . . 539 9 01/2 1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2 " Dunrossness . . 395 19 3 " North Roe . . 757 17 01/2