3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our profit.

3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?- Yes.

3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the wholesale dealer the same price.

3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come back, then there would be a loss.

3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales for one profit.

3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular case except the one you have mentioned?-No.

3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.

3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any one.

3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.

3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.

3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not.

3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to believe that it is done.

3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the vague report so often-not once, but several times.

3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any great extent?-I could not say to what extent.

3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but only that it was common.

3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any women who have done it?-I do.

3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one who has said it to-day

3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.

3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?- Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in goods.

3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of paying their debt to another?-Yes.

3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need of it.

3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.

3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand, and that I just put it down as she said it.

3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them an extra piece of work.

3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of 'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.

3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His account would show that the amount which he received from us was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his account he would state that he had given out so much meal to them.

3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?- Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.

3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal account.

3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently.

3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?- Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got help from another quarter.

3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?- I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price, not at the cash price.

3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they had just a weekly allowance.

3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said, 'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands.

3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr. Smith?-Yes.

3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr. Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R. Sinclair & Co.

3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it.

3400. You don't know about it personally?-No.

3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to some extent.

3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in, and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well, she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of forty yards.

3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two profits on his hosiery.

3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely be embarking his capital a second time.

3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that cash again.

3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a profit which on your own statement, he does not have now. According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It might.

3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?- Yes.

3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants something different and in order to get which she might perhaps have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever she wanted,

3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two disadvantages.

3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would, if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as the cash system might be a means of producing better articles. The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes is now.

3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain seasons it is.

3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all, because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be a regular flow of goods into the market.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith, because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye them for nothing.

3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring more than they would have brought if they had been white; but that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined.

3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.

3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?- Yes.

3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No.

3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for a long time; I don't remember how long.

3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls.

3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid for them, according to what I sought.

3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave me a little money when I asked it.

3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above 6d. at a time, but I would get it.

3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was just as I had time to sit at it.

3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself entirely by my work.

3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else I had to do.

3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes.

3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No; except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the parochial board.

3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends.

3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of your knitting?-Yes.

3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money.

3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling merchants,

3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got much the same from him as I got from them.

3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little money, I would have got it.

3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine knitting.

3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes.

3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I think I am better paid by making these little haps.

3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two.

3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little.

3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting made when I had lodgers.

3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.; but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion.

3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two.

3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever as can be yet.

3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money from Mr. Linklater when I ask it.

3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and when I had nothing in his hands to get.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled.

3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to another person for cash.

3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes.

3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer. Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are taken from the customer.

[Page 78]

3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact, re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put upon the article; it may be the same price.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair & Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles, entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them according to our own judgment, without any reference to the entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of the value of which there could be any doubt.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined.

3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until lately?-Yes.

3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas Jamieson.

3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.

3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally.

3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes.

3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted, and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting.

3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the size of the shawl.

3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that way?-No.

3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it, because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it.

3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not fall in with the things I was wanting.

3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out of things I wanted.

3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were there.

3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes.

3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly.

3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's wages.

3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had required it. He would not have given it.

3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did.

3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes.

3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way.

3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?- Cotton and winceys.

3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much tea.

3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give it.

3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some time.

3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a servant.

3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at present.

3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes.

3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to, and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in money.

3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane.

3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any little thing, which she has got, we can get it.

3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson who buy hosiery?-Yes.

3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound.

3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing.

3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool.

3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes.

3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought the wool, and we spun it for ourselves.

3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes.

3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut.

3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison, or any of them.

3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No.

3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting.

3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes.

3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it; but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted.

3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply because you wanted the goods?-Yes

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON or NICHOLSON, examined.

3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it Lerwick.

3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes.

3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home; and I don't require to do it.

3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard so much said on both sides of the subject.

3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience goes.

3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing.

3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?- Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White, and been paid for them in money.

3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it.

3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't have any particular statement to make about one more than another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops.

3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the people complained about getting goods for their work. Their complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I thought they had great reason to complain.

3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much more in some cases than what they could have been got for in ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it.

3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s. from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it properly before.

3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to 10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will declare it was.

3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick when we were not dealing in the hosiery business.

3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in hosiery?-Yes.

3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience, because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery. I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4 yards-just the quantity required.

3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence, and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us. I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it, could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what made me think over it.

3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of those who paid me with 10s.

3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not get in to see him there, because there were so many people who came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here.

3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years ago.

3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would perhaps not take the goods at all.

3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without doing something for it in some other way, as has been already explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it, by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order to serve the purpose they required the money for.

3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick.

3518. Do not people in the country sometimes come in and stay with them for a night or two?-Yes but it could scarcely be called a lodging-house as that is understood in the south.

3519. But people do come from the country for a night or two, and perhaps bring their own provisions with them?-There is very little of that can be done in Lerwick at present, because there have been so [Page 80] many people warned out of their farms in the country.

3520. Have you known many cases, within your own knowledge, of girls being in straits in consequence of that system of dealing?-Yes, I have had to supply them many a time with things. I bought some little things from a girl within the last week or two at a reduced price, which she took from me because I could give her the money. I did not require the article. I only bought it from her as a charity, and I would not have mentioned it unless you had asked me.

3521. Have you ever known of girls falling into evil courses in consequence of the want of money?-Perhaps if they had the inclination, they would have fallen into them any way. I think, on the whole, that if they had money, they would be able to save a good deal out of the expense for dress which they sometimes wear. They would then have their money, to do what they chose with it. Perhaps they might apply some of it for a religious purpose, or put it into a missionary box; or if they did not think of doing that, they might have an opportunity to put it into the savings bank, which Lerwick knitters have never yet had the pleasure doing.

3522. Is there no savings bank here?-There is a post-office savings bank; but I don't think there are many of the knitters who can get the blessing of putting cash into it for a rainy day, either to pay the doctor or anything else.

3523. You seem to think that the effect of the system is to lead them to spend more of their earnings on dress than they would otherwise do?-When I was young myself and unmarried, and when I was getting dresses instead of getting money articles for my work, I would not have thought much of putting a very expensive dress on; but when I got money I did not like to spend so much upon dress, because I prized the money so much more. I only judge others as I would judge myself; but I know that when I was paid only in goods for my knitting, I would be more ready to take an expensive dress than if I were to get money.

3524. I asked you a question just now which you did not answer quite distinctly: whether you had known of girls who were knitters falling into evil courses?-I cannot say about that.

3525. Do you think girls are led to fall into a bad way of living from the system which prevails here, and from being led by it to indulge more in dress than they ought to do, or from being in straits from want of food?-I cannot answer that question. I don't see why they should do that in consequence of the system; but what I mean is, that if they could get money for their goods, that would perhaps prevent them from spending all their earnings in dress, and expensive articles of that kind, and they would have something for other purposes which are as necessary, or more so.

3526. You said the prices differed at certain shops in town: would you give me an instance of that besides what you have mentioned? Suppose, for instance, that cotton is charged at 6d. a yard, is not that the common price for cotton that is given for hosiery?-Yes.

3527. Do you know whether that could be got cheaper at any other shop?-That particular thing does not vary so much just now as it used to do; but with regard to the dress pieces, and things of that kind, I know there are some shops that have a higher price marked on the articles than the other shops have on an article of the same appearance and, I think, of the same value.

3528. You know that from examining them in the shops?-I know it by going from shop to shop and purchasing the articles with money for myself.

3529. What is your husband's business?-He is a cooper.

3530. Have you bought Shetland worsted yourself?-I have.

3531. From merchants or from people?-Generally from country people.

3532. Do you always pay money for it?-Yes.

3533. Have you bought it from merchants too?-Yes.

3534. Do you always pay them money for it?-I have seen Mr. Sinclair sometimes supply me with some of it on work, although it was a money article and I felt obliged to him for it, because I sometimes could not get it from the country as well as he could.

3535. That was given you to work into things for yourself?-Yes.

3536. But the price was the same, in both cases?-Yes; of the Shetland worsted.

3537. And when you got it from the shop in that way, it was as a favour that you got it?-Yes.

3538. What would be the value of the Shetland worsted in a shawl that was worth 20s.?-I generally deal with Mr. John White in shawls that are worth more than that. I do not send many to him now.

3539. Do you get a high price for them from him?-No; I can get as much for them in Lerwick.

3540. What price do you get for these shawls?-From 28s. to 30s.; and I can go in with the same shawl to any of the shops in Lerwick and get the same price, only in goods. I don't say that Mr. White will give us any more for our shawls than the merchants here will give us in goods.

3541. Only you think that, if you get 30s. in cash from Mr. White, you could possibly buy what you want cheaper than you would get it from the merchants here in exchange for your hosiery?-Yes, that is what I mean to say.

3542. With regard to a shawl worth 30s., how much would you pay for the Shetland worsted that it is made of?-Perhaps about 9s. or 9s. 6d., or perhaps 8s. 6d. if I could buy it economically.

3543. About what quantity of worsted would there be in it?- About thirty-three cuts to that size of shawl.

3544. Would it be worth more than 8d. a cut?-No. Some people might charge more, but I generally get it for that.

3545. Then thirty-three cuts at 3d. a cut would be 8s. 3d. for the worsted?-Yes.

3546. How long would it take you to knit such a shawl?-It would take me a long time just now.

3547. Perhaps it is hardly possible to calculate how long it would take?-No.

3548. The worsted is the only expense you would have in making such a shawl?-Yes; I could dress it for myself.

3549. But if you did not, what would be the charge for dressing?- 6d.

3550. So that the payment for your labour on a shawl of that kind would be about 21s.?-Yes; but of course, if I was getting it knitted, I might get it done for about 12s. A knitter would make it for me for that sum if I were giving her the worsted.

3551. Have you ever dealt in that way giving out worsted to knitters, and getting shawls knitted for yourself?-Only on a very small scale. I knitted more to others when I was young.

3552. But you have given out some knitting to others?-Yes, perhaps part of a shawl; so that I calculate the whole cost would be about that.

3553. Therefore, if you were giving out a shawl to knit, it would cost you 8s. 9d. for the material and the dressing, and you would pay 12s. for the knitting-in all, 20s. 9d.; and you could sell it to Mr. White in cash for 9s. 3d. of profit?-I would not call it all profit, because sometimes I have a good deal to do before I can get the worsted wrought as good as I would like to put it into Mr. White's shawls, and then I have to lie out of my money until I can get a party to take it in. Besides, if I were putting it out to knitter, I would have to stand the risk of getting it done properly to my mind. There might be some faults in the shawl; and if there was anything of that kind, there must be an allowance made for that. I am not saying that I ever did that, I am only speaking of how it could be done.

3554. You are speaking of what you could do, and of what you know can be done, from your experience in giving out part of your own work?-Yes.

3555. Do you know anything about the stocking [Page 81] business-the cheaper and coarser kind of Shetland goods?-No; I have not much acquaintance with that. I may say, that while I think in Lerwick it would be far better for the people if they could get money for their work, yet the country people are not requiring the money quite so much, as they need the goods at any rate; but if, as a rule, a money system were once established, and the people were all to get money for the work, I think those who purchase the work would find the profit of it as well as those who have to sell it.

3556. Have you ever considered why this system of paying in goods is kept up?-Yes.

3557. What do you suppose to be the reason for it?-If I had had it in my power, I would perhaps have done the very same as the merchants have done, because they have got the good of it.

3558. How have they got the good of it?-Because I think they must have had a profit on it.

3559. On the hosiery?-Not so much on the hosiery as on the goods. Reason teaches me that there must be a profit somewhere, or else it would not have been carried on to such an extent.

3560. I suppose the present system of payment induces the people who sell hosiery to the merchants, to buy their goods from them rather than from another?-Certainly it does; because, when I go in with a shawl to a merchant, I consider that I have to take the whole value of that shawl out in goods.

3561. It makes the merchants sure of their customers?-Yes.

3562. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I may mention, that I think the system of paying half in money and half in goods would not do. One party was asked whether she would be pleased to take one half in money, and the rest of the payment in goods. That may be a good enough plan if it were established and carried on throughout the year; but I remember that at one time one-half the value of a shawl was given in groceries, and that plan died away. The merchants kept groceries at that time, for the sake of getting hosiery with which to supply their orders. The merchants who did so were Mr. Harrison and Mr. Laurenson. As the season of the year came round when they did not have orders for their shawls, then, if they bought shawls, they had to lay them past until the market opened again; and there were very few groceries given out, because I understood they had more profit on their drapery goods. By and by the system of giving groceries died out altogether.

3563. Was that because they had a less profit on them than on the drapery?-I understood so. I remember Mrs. Harrison, the party with whom Mr. Mackenzie lodged, telling me that as soon as the country people began to knit, we, the town's people, would suffer very much. I could not understand very well what she meant at that time, but afterwards, when the country people supplied the merchants with the goods which they required, then they saw that these people from the country only required drapery, and they could get their orders supplied from the country. That led the merchants to pay for the hosiery only in drapery goods, and the Lerwick people had to comply with the same rule. It was when the country people came in to do the knitting that the supply of groceries died away, because the merchants could get their orders so much cheaper from the country people. They did not require the groceries like the town's people, because knitting was not the only thing which they had for their living.

3564. Do you think the ready-money system would be better for the merchants than the present?-It would be better for those who have very little profit on the goods they sell, but it would not be so good for those merchants who take a great deal of profit.

3565. Are there any of the merchants who take very little profit on their goods?-There are some who have less than others.

3566. And you think they would profit by a cash system?-I think, on the whole, they would.

3567. They would have no bad debts?-No; and they would not issue so many lines or have so many clerks; and there are a great many ways in which I think it would be better for them.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, THOMAS NICHOLSON, examined.

3568. You are a draper and dealer in hosiery in Lerwick?-Yes, principally a draper. I don't do much in hosiery.

3569. You were formerly in the service of Robert Sinclair & Co.?-Yes.

3570. You have heard some of the evidence that has been given here?-Yes, some of it. I think Mrs. Nicholson and Mr. Johnstone are the only persons whose evidence I have heard throughout.

3571. Do you concur generally with what Mr. Johnstone said about the system of business here?-Yes. I also heard a good part of Mr. Laurenson's evidence, and I thought it gave a fair statement of the matter.

3572. Is there anything you wish to add with regard to the system of paying in goods?-I have nothing to add to what I believe has already been stated.

3573. Do you give lines?-Only a very few, when they are asked.

3574. Do you give them to people from whom you buy hosiery, or to those who knit for you?-Only to those from whom I buy hosiery. I don't give out any hosiery to knit at all.

3575. Is it understood in your trade, as well as in that of the other gentlemen who have been examined, that all purchases of hosiery are to be settled for in goods?-Yes, that is generally understood. It has always been the habit, and we have never got it altered yet.

3576. Do you think it would be expedient to have a change in that respect?-I believe it would, if it could only be got to work.

3577. What is the difficulty in the way of having another system?-We could not give so much in cash for the goods we buy.

3578. Do you think the people generally would not take cash?- Yes, I believe they would want goods. So far as I am concerned, they always take goods from me, and I have never heard them ask for cash. I deal both with country people and with people from Lerwick, and none of them ever asked me for it.

3579. Is it long since you left Mr. Sinclair's employment?-About two and a half years ago.

3580. There has been no important change made in the system of carrying on business either in your shop or in his during that time?-No.

3581. Do you do much in the coarser kinds of hosiery?-A little not a great deal. The stockings are generally done by the country people, and the finer work by the town's people.

3582. You buy the stockings from the country people?-Yes, I just exchange the one article for the other.

3583. You fix a nominal price at which you are to buy the stockings?-Yes; the price. I expect to get for them, as near as I can fix it.

3584. You don't expect to make a profit on them?-No; I would often be very thankful to get what I have paid for them.

3585. Then your profit is on the goods which you give in exchange?-Yes.

3586. Do you think you take a higher profit on your goods in consequence of accepting payment for them in hosiery rather than in cash?-No; the goods are all marked in plain figures. When I get cash I generally give off 21/2 or 33/4 cent.

3587. But don't you take a higher profit from all your customers because so much of your goods are paid for in hosiery?-No; if I did so, I would run the risk of losing my business; and in fact I would rather give up the hosiery altogether, because I don't think it [Page 82] pays very well, so much of it gets damaged, and the moths get into it.

3588. How long were you in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-For thirteen years.

3589. Were you acquainted both with the prices paid for hosiery goods and the prices obtained for them in the south?-Yes.

3590. Was more asked for them from the merchants in the south than was paid for them to the knitters in Lerwick?-No; we were always very thankful to get what we had given in goods for them.

3591. But if a cash price was paid for an article, was a higher price put upon it when it was sold south?-Yes; if we paid cash, we required a little more than we had paid. We could not have carried on the business without having a little profit on it.

3592. You do not give out any knitting at all?-Scarcely any. I think I have only two girls knitting for me at present.

3593. Do they get any part of their payment in cash?-Yes, whenever they ask it.

3594. But is it not the understanding that they shall be paid in goods?-Yes; it is generally understood that they shall get anything they want.

3595. How much are they in use to ask for in cash?-Probably a shilling now and then.

3596. Do they live by their knitting, or have they other means of support?-There is one party that does something for me who lives exclusively, or almost exclusively, by knitting; but almost all the girls have something else to do besides that.

3597. What is the name of the girl who lives almost exclusively by knitting?-I think one of them is Catherine Borthwick.

3598. Tea is one of the most common articles you give in exchange for the knitting?-Yes.

3599. Have you ever known of the goods you gave being exchanged for necessaries after you gave them?-No.

3600. Or of your lines being exchanged for necessaries or for cash?-I never knew of a case where that was done.

3601. Have you heard of such a thing being done?-I have heard of it; but I never knew of any of my lines, or any of the goods bought, from me, being exchanged.

3602. Are your lines generally brought back by the same parties to whom they were given out?-I think so; but I am not quite sure, because we just put on them 'Credit the bearer' so much.

3603. Have you a register of your lines?-Yes; I enter the number of the lines in a book.

3604. Was that a system which you adopted from Mr. Sinclair?-It was partly a system of my own. When I commenced on my own account, I adopted the system of keeping a check, the same as a bank chequebook.

3605. How many of these lines do you suppose you issue?-I don't do a great deal in that way. It is only for the accommodation of the parties that I give any at all. I would be quite prepared to settle with them at once if they liked.

3606. I suppose these lines are generally given for the balance upon a shawl, or anything that you buy?-Yes, for any little thing they are selling.

3607. Part of the price is taken in goods, and they take the balance in a line if they don't want the whole of it?-Yes; or perhaps a line may be taken for the whole of it, and they come and get tea and other articles as they want them.

3608. Is it generally long before they come back with these lines?-Some of them may be returned perhaps in a few days, and some of them in a few months. A country girl may keep a line beside her for perhaps a month or twelve months. I have known them keep them for three years, when I was in Mr. Sinclair's employment.

3609. Then the system of lines existed when you were with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

3610. But he had not a register of them at that time?-Not for all the lines: he had a check for them, but they were not all registered then.

3611. Are you aware of the fact that the knitters in Shetland are anxious to sell their goods to others than merchants, in order to get ready money for them?-I believe some of them are; but I never met with many who were anxious to sell their goods for cash.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.

3612. Do you wish to add anything to your previous evidence?-I wish merely to say, that I have known cases where people have gone out with hosiery and sold it for money, and then come into our shop and bought what goods they required.

3613. Was that hosiery which had been offered to you before and was refused?-Yes.

3614. You had refused to buy it at the price they wanted?-Yes; at any price. I remember one case of that kind with regard to some half-stockings.

3615. When you refused to take them, the woman went and sold them elsewhere, and then came back to you with the money?- Yes.

3616. Was that long ago?-Yes, a good while ago. Of course there may have been other cases of that kind which I don't know about, but in that particular case the woman told me she had done it, I don't remember her name.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3617. Do you wish to add anything?-I should like to state something which struck me just now about a case where I saw lines given for money. It occurred in my own shop, and I believe it occurs oftener than we think; but there was one time when I detected it. A customer came into my shop and made some purchases, and at the same time another customer came in who I knew had got lines from the shop. The first person who was making the purchase was carrying through a cash transaction with me, and I expected to have been paid in money for it; but the other customer who had the lines took the other person aside and handed over the lines to her, and I was paid with them. I did not object to take the lines for their value, because the goods were charged at a fixed value for cash or line, but it certainly deprived me of the cash at that time.

3618. And it deprived you also of the profit which you would have had upon the goods that ought to have been given for the line?- Yes. I merely mention that as an instance in which cash was given for lines.

.

[Page 83]

Lerwick: Monday, January 8, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM IRVINE, examined

3619. You are a partner of the firm of Hay & Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am.

3620. You have been so for many years?-Yes.

3621. I presume you take a principal part in the management of the affairs of that firm?-I do.

3622. In consequence of hearing that this inquiry had been appointed to take place, you have prepared a written statement with regard to the system pursued in the fish-curing business in Shetland, which you now hand in?-Yes.

3623. It is a correct statement?-It is quite correct, to the best of my knowledge.

[The following statement was put in by the witness:-]

I have had many years' experience of Shetland business generally, and especially of the fish-curing trade. Most of the time I have been connected with my present partners, and we have curing stations and establishments at several parts of the islands. We also manage four estates in the country-two as factors for the proprietors, and two as lessees. For the first we only account for the rents collected, but for the other two we pay fixed tack-duties.

The tenants on one of the estates for which we act as factors are altogether free to fish where they choose, and to dispose of their farm produce as they think proper, and their rents are received in cash every year at Martinmas. The tenants on the other, which I believe is next the largest in Shetland, are also free (with the exception of the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries); and we seldom see them unless when they come to town to pay their rents. Some fish to one curer, and some to another, as they find convenient; and they are quite at liberty to dispose of all their produce, such as cattle, ponies, hosiery, and the like, where they can obtain the best prices. We are not liable to the proprietor for bad debts on this estate either, but the rents are generally well paid, and very few of the tenants are in arrears.

In Whalsay there is only one curing station, and we pay the proprietor a yearly rent for the stores, booths, kelp-shores, and other privileges; and receive fish, oil, and kelp from the tenants, for which we settle at the current prices of the country. We have a factor there, with assistants, who manages for us, and supplies fishing materials and other necessaries to the men and their families during the year; and I usually go there myself soon after Martinmas, to square up accounts, pay the balance due the fishermen, and collect rents from the tenants. We also pay large sums of money at all our other country stations. In 1870, when north settling, I paid the men at Whalsay, after deducting their advances, 1222; and I find from a state prepared by the factor, that of fish, oil, and herrings received there that year, amounting to 2529, 15s. 1d., we paid the men 1584, 12s. 9d. in cash. We have not yet made up a similar account for 1871; but when settling there lately, after retaining their advances, I paid them no less than 1374. There are very few debts in the books there, and the people are considered to be in good circumstances.

Of this estate I can speak with confidence, as the management is more immediately in my department. There are 430 tenants on the lands-nearly all fishermen and sailors. When we strike out of the arrear list those tenants who have not had the opportunity of paying their rents for last year,-two who are old and infirm, and another who retains his balance for alleged improvements,-the amount due for the three years it has been in our hands is only 57, 13s. 1d. None of the tenants have been warned or sold out.

Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland. Many of them have sailed in all quarters of the world. Newspapers are now circulated all over the islands; and the Aberdeen, Leith, and Clyde Shipping Companies' powerful steamers bring mails with great regularity twice a week in summer, and once a week in winter; and in consequence of the frequent communication, all sorts of farm produce have largely increased in price. I have seen eggs selling in the islands at 11/2d. for sixteen,-now the price is 10d. per dozen; butter 6d., now 1s. and 1s. 2d. per pound; fat cattle 3 each, now 6 to 7; ponies 40s., now 6 to 10.

In our dealings with fishermen, they are charged the same prices for goods that we sell at for ready money to the public. We employ a number of carpenters and other tradesmen here, all of whom receive their wages in cash every Saturday night.

The Burra Islands are one of the properties which we hold in tack. We have two curing stations in the islands for convenience of the fishermen, and factors on the spot to receive the fish as they are landed from the boats. The fishings are prosecuted on the coasts in small boats in spring and summer, but the best of the men are employed out of the islands, and the fishings are now very unimportant. These men who fish out of the islands are employed in smacks belonging to Hay & Co., and various other owners, and prosecute the fishing on the coasts of Faroe and elsewhere, from the end of March to the middle of August. Those who fish to us get the same as those who are employed by others. The tenants of these islands sell their cattle, ponies, hosiery, eggs, and all other produce (except the few fish caught on the coast), as they like, without let or hindrance. We have no shop in the islands, and the men employed by us get their supplies from our stores here and at Scalloway. Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad fishings, when we had to give them large quantities of meal for their support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the islands were indebted the best part of 1000. We made an attempt at that time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their parents, and I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it had a contrary effect to what we intended, and, so far as I remember, the money was given back. I do not mention that the men are confined to our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose, and all our fishermen over islands can do the same, and at settlement receive their season's earnings wholly in cash. I believe this is the general practice; and were it otherwise, there is the small-debt court, the sheriff court, and several lawyers here to help them to their rights.

On the other estate referred to of which we are lessees, the tenants who remain at home are nearly all employed in the ling fishing. Some go south sailing, and pay their rents in cash, and we never exercise any control over them; but as we pay the current price to the tenants who remain at home, we insist on getting their fish as a security for their rents, otherwise the improvident might squander their earnings, and in some bad years be unable to pay. We never interfere with any of the tenants' produce except fish, on this estate more than the others. They are left to dispose of it where they like.

We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys [Page 84] from all quarters during the summer months, but after they settle, we have no transactions with them till another year comes round, when they return to our employment if they think they have been well served.

As already mentioned, we are engaged in the deep-sea cod fishing, and, like others, send vessels to fish at Faroe, Rockall, and Iceland. The crews are engaged on shares, and the fish are salted on board, and afterwards landed at the curing stations in a wet state. When ready for market, they are sold at the best price that can be obtained, and, after deducting expenses and other charges according to agreement, the proceeds are divided equally- one-half to the owners, and the other to the crew. Fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured on monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. The fishing season being short, the utmost activity is necessary; and when the weather is favourable, the men are often obliged to work day and night.

Shetland fishermen are not altogether dependent for their livelihood on the produce of the fishings. In most cases they have farms that can keep their families six to eight months, and with good crops many of them have no occasion to buy meal the year round. They cannot afford to use fresh beef, but, as a rule, most families can kill a pig; and on the whole, in ordinary seasons, I believe they have a much greater abundance of the necessaries of life than a great many people of their class in the kingdom. They are, without doubt, more independent and less under control than mechanics and others (who are obliged to work under a master a stated number of hours every day), and consequently are more happy and contented. We have no international societies in Shetland. Some of the dwelling-houses are not what they should be, but a great improvement has taken place in this respect since the timber-duty was repealed; and, for my own part, I would ten times rather live a year in a Shetland cottage, surrounded by pure air, than week in one of the slums of London or Glasgow.

Preparations for the ling fishing commence early in spring. The men form themselves into crews, and appoint the most experienced man as skipper. If they have no boat of their own, one must be hired, or a new one built; but the lines in most cases belong to themselves, and they always find curers ready to supply them with what they want, on condition that they receive their fish.

No curer would be safe to make these advances, without the men engaging to deliver their fish-a new boat alone costing about 20 without lines, The price of the summer fish is seldom fixed until the end of the season, when the fish are sold for the south-country markets.

Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and in the end come to grief. I have known crews to be engaged at fixed prices before the commencement of the fishing but as markets improved towards the end of the season, we were obliged to throw the agreement aside and pay the same as others, in order not to lose the men's services the following year. When the fishing season is over and the fish prepared for market, south-country dealers contract for it at prices free on board; and with them again there is competition, so that curers seldom fail to get the full value of the article.

People in the south, who have to pay perhaps 4s. to 7s. 6d. for a fresh cod or ling, are surprised to hear that the poor Shetland fishermen only get 6d. to 9d.; and we have had a great deal of clever writing on this subject lately, without much common sense. The shipping price of ling in the past season has been 23,-rather higher than usual,-and fishermen have been paid 8s. per cwt. wet, or about 9d. per fish. Although it has been rather a good year for curers, the following statement will show that fortunes are not rapidly accumulated in the trade:-

21/4 cwt. wet fish, cured ready for market, weigh only 1 cwt.-21/4 cwt. @ 8s. 0 18 0 Add cost of salt, hire of vats, tubs, tarpaulins, and other curing materials; also wages to men and boys splitting, washing, and drying; and expense of flitting from beaches-weighing and storing usually reckoned. . . 0 3 0 1 1 0

21s. per cwt., or 21 per ton, leaving 40s. to the curer, out of which he has to pay store rent, weighing, shipping, skippers' fees, gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss by small and damaged fish, and of interest-the sales being made at three months in October, and the men settled with in November; and further, when the risk of sales is also taken into account, the sum left to remunerate the curer for his season's work is not very large.

One great drawback on a Shetland business is fishermen's bad debts, and our chief study is to limit the supplies when we know the men to be improvident; but it is quite impossible to keep men clear when the fishing proves unsuccessful. There is no difficulty, however, when dealing with careful men.

At various stations round the islands near the fishing grounds, where there are natural beaches, the men have small huts to live in during the fishing season, and the crews assemble there about the middle of May to commence operations. The merchants or fish-curers have the necessary curing materials on the spot, and factors, splitters, and beach boys attending to receive and cure the fish; and, while the fishing is carried on, the men go to their respective homes every Saturday, taking with them small and unmerchantable fish for the use of their families-returning to the stations, with provisions for the week, every Monday. They generally make two or three trips during the week, according to the state of the weather, and weigh and deliver over the catch when they land. Their families get supplies from the factor's shop as required; but the men have opportunities weekly of seeing their accounts and can limit these supplies if they choose.

The Whalsay fishermen deliver their fish in summer, and live at small holms to seaward of the main island near the fishing ground, and a large boat is employed to remove their fish to the beach at Simbister to be dried. The men are thus enabled to make more voyages to the haaf than by landing each time at the curing-beach.

As settling time approaches, our managers in the country prepare by sending for the men, and reading over to them individually their private accounts, comparing and making up pass-books, where any are kept, and giving copies of the accounts when desired; and when we come to settle, each man knows exactly the amount of his season's expenditure.

If a ready-money system were adopted, and payments made in cash for each landing, I believe it would scarcely be practicable to carry it out. Large sums of money would require to be kept at these stations,-men with some knowledge of figures and accounts to be always present,-and half the fishermen's time would be taken up with the settlements. The money would then be carried home to their families, and in many cases at the end of the season there would be little left to pay rent and provide necessaries for the winter months, when there are no fishings, and no work except at their own farms. Such a mode of dealing would otherwise injure the men, as curers with small means would be driven out of the trade, and in some measure competition prevented.

From twenty-five to thirty years ago I had several opportunities of seeing how the fishings were conducted Barra and South Uist. At that time the fishermen were all living in wretched hovels along the sea-coast, and the islands let for grazing cattle and in sheep farms. Very few of them were able to keep a cow, and they knew nothing of the luxuries of life, and could scarcely command a bare existence. Their chief living in winter [Page 85] and spring was potatoes not fit for pigs, and shell-fish, with any small fish they could catch in the bays. There were plenty of fish on the coast, but no middle-men with capital to encourage the men to work. In summer they prosecuted the fishing a little distance outside of the islands, where their buoys could be seen from the shore. Their boats were clumsy and unmanageable-some with sails and some without; and the lines were made by themselves out of hemp obtained on credit, and only lasted one year. They were set on the fishing ground at the commencement of the season, and seldom taken up to dry. Now, however, I understand large capital is embarked in the fishing trade in that quarter, and of late years it has been very prosperous, and the circumstances of the natives greatly improved.

In 1785 a Commissioner was sent by Government to inquire into the state of the fisheries in the Hebrides, and in his report to a committee of the House of Commons, on being asked 'whether he thought it would be benefit to the lower classes of people if any of the tacksmen or others were debarred by law from entering into a contract with these people for obtaining the pre-emption of their fish, etc., as specified in his report,' he answered, 'That, so far from thinking it would be a benefit to the people, he should think it would prove a material injury to them; for they have no other possible way of being supplied with the necessaries they want from distant markets but by the intervention of those persons who keep stores in the manner described in the report; neither have they in general any means of finding money to purchase boats and other necessary apparatus for fishing; and that, unless they were furnished by these storekeepers upon credit, very few of them could engage in the fisheries at all; and, in the present situation of that country, as they have no other possible way of paying the debts they thus contract but by the fish they catch, no person would furnish these upon credit unless they had the pre-emption of them: that it has been already stated in the report, that this kind of trade, though apparently very oppressive to the poor in all cases, affords but very little profit to the merchants; and that he knew several instances where the people who keep these stores, by acting in a disinterested manner, have contributed very essentially to promote the welfare of the country.'

Since that date the Shetland fisheries also have been largely extended by the introduction of capital and the opening of stores among the different islands, where the men can always obtain fishing materials and supplies for their families; but to the present day the answer still holds good: curers must have the pre-emption of the fish, as a security for payment.

In the evidence before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh lately, witnesses were examined who had little knowledge of Shetland business, and many of the statements were not only contrary to fact, but simply absurd. For instance, can any man of common sense imagine that a merchant would come to grief in consequence of not having enough of bad debts, and that if he could carry on until he had 2000 of bad debts, he would do a flourishing trade, 'because they keep it going in a circle, and it never gets worse?' That was one of the extraordinary statements made to the Commission. Is it not clear that if a dealer with small means emptied his shop of goods to people who could not pay for them, then, as soon as the bills he had granted for these goods fell due, he might shut it up?

As already mentioned, the Shetland fishing trade has been largely developed by increased capital of late years, but in all time past it has been conducted on the same principles, with few modifications, as at present, and will be so, I think, in all time coming. If the islands and their fishing banks could be removed to near London, where the fish might be sold fresh at high prices, the fishermen would be greatly benefited; but as this is impossible, we must all submit to the inevitable. It is true, Government may attempt to change the trade by Act of Parliament; but in that case they will either have to remove the entire fishing population to some other and better country, or keep them at home as paupers, by annual grants for food and clothing.

We are not engaged in the hosiery trade; but I know it to be the most troublesome business in the islands, being conducted chiefly by barter. I think it could not be carried on very well to any extent otherwise. We would be quite ready to embark in it and buy for cash, if we could make a commission; but I do not believe it would pay the expenses and servants' wages. Giving goods in exchange, hosiers can afford to allow a much higher price for the articles than we could for cash, and therefore very little of the trade would come our way if we took it up.

Besides the fishing trade, we have acted a long time as agents for ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits whale and seal fishing. These vessels call here to complete their crews in February and March; and when they return, the men are either landed at Lerwick, or some other point of the islands as they pass south. When they go out, the men are engaged at the shipping office, and receive a month's wages in advance, in presence of the shipping master, and the agents are reimbursed when they send the accounts to the owners. When the ships return and the men are landed, they disperse without a moment's delay (in most cases) to their several homes, and come back to Lerwick to settle for their wages and first payment of oil-money, individually, as it suits their own convenience; and in the same way, a second time, to receive the balance of their oil-money and sign the ship's release. This may be better understood from the following correspondence that took place the past year between Hay & Co. and one of the Peterhead shipowners, in respect to a notice said to be issued by the Board of Trade, headed 'Truck System in Lerwick:'-

'PETERHEAD, 16 1871. 'R. KIDD HAY & CO. 'I enclose you letter I have received from H.M. Customs as regards the engaging and paying of the men engaged in the Greenland fishing ships. You will know how to act in regard to this. You have likely received direct orders, and I only enclose it to keep you in mind of it.' The document to which Mr. Kidd's letter refers is given below.*

* 'TRUCK SYSTEM IN LERWICK. 'It appears from the returns and documents received by the Registrar-General of Seamen, that the indulgence granted by the Board of Trade under their special regulations, M. 2884/1864, to the owners and masters of sealing and whaling vessels, in respect to seamen engaged at Orkney and Shetland, has in a great measure been abused, and the whole object of the regulations defeated by the agents employed by and representing the owners at Lerwick. The Board of Trade are informed that many of the Shetland seamen who should have been discharged before the Superintendent there, within a reasonable time after their being landed on the termination of a first or second voyage, remain undischarged and unpaid even into the currency of the succeeding year, and that some of the releases for 1870 still remain incomplete.

'It should be borne in mind that the exceptional regulations referred to were issued by the Board of Trade, with a view to the convenience of the owners and masters of this class of vessels, and the protection of the Shetland seamen; but as the latter intention seems to have been purposely frustrated, the Board of Trade direct you to inform the owners and masters of those vessels whose crews are engaged before you during the ensuing season, that unless they cause their agents to comply with the spirit as well as the letter of these regulations, and discharge the men within one month of their being landed, the Board will be necessitated either to render the regulations more stringent, or withdraw them altogether. If the latter alternative were adopted, the discharge of the Orkney and Shetland whaling crews would have to take place under the more rigid terms prescribed by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, which of all other vessels at ports in the United Kingdom.'

'CUSTOM HOUSE, PETERHEAD, '10 1871

'SIR,-The foregoing is a copy of directions just received from the Board of Trade, dated 7th March, regarding the faulty way in which seamen are discharged from Peterhead whaling vessels at Lerwick; and I now beg to call your attention thereto, requesting that you would instruct your agent at Lerwick to attend to the previous instructions issued, which were circulated among the masters and agents when they were issued. 'W.R. BALFOUR. 'Mr. R. KIDD, Merchant.'

[Page 86]

'LERWICK, 27 1871. 'HAY & CO. R. KIDD.

'We are duly favoured with your's of 16th instant, enclosing a communication from the Board of Trade in reference to payment of wages to Shetlandmen on board of ships in the Greenland trade, and headed by the words, 'Truck in Lerwick,'-a cry raised by a stranger who has taken up his residence in Shetland, and is now endeavouring, by every means in his power, to make himself prominent both here and elsewhere.

'We utterly deny that we have ever 'purposely frustrated' the Board regulations in respect to the payment of these men; on the contrary, we have kept a clerk, whose time has been chiefly occupied in settling the wages in presence of the collector as they came to town one by one, according to their own convenience; and you know how far the commission we get from the ships can go towards his salary. Nobody can compel the men to come to town all at one time for their wages; and if the releases of 1870 are not yet completed, it is not our fault.

'Without attaching any blame to you, we consider the document referred to-if it is meant to apply to us-a gratuitous insult. The Greenland agency is no great object, and after this season we shall not put ourselves in a position to have it repeated.'

'PETERHEAD, 23 1871. 'R. KIDD HAY & CO.

'I sent the document from the Board of Trade, in case you should not have received a copy. I am of opinion that the men will suffer more by this new order than the merchants, from the experience I have had here. Were I not to give some credit to some of our own men during the winter, their families would starve. I do not wonder you feel sore upon the subject of the report.'

'LERWICK, 27 1871. 'HAY & CO. R. KIDD.

'We have yours of 23d instant. With respect to advances, our people are differently circumstanced from yours. The married men have all farms in the country, and the young men live with their friends there, and we never see them from the time they settle the one year until they come to town to engage the next; so during the winter they neither ask, nor would we give them any supplies if they did, as in all probability they would offer their services first to agents who held no claim against them. Of the twenty men engaged for the 'Mazinthien,' not one was due us a shilling, and their month's wages was paid to them in cash at the shipping office at the time they signed articles; and any advances their families may get during their absence is given on their monthly notes, which are the only authority we have for making the deduction from their wages when they return.

'A great deal of absurdity has been written lately on this subject by well-meaning people, but who were entirely ignorant of the whole matter, and ready to believe whatever was told them, without taking the trouble to ascertain whether it was true or false.'

'LERWICK, 22 1871 'HAY & CO. R. KIDD.

'Referring to your letter of 16th March, we now send you enclosed abstract account of payments to Shetlandmen on board vessels for which we have acted as agents during the past three seasons, 1869, 1870, and 1871, to show how far we have benefited by what the Board of Trade are pleased to call the 'Truck System in Lerwick.'

'We are almost inclined to suppose the document now referred to, received in your letter of the above date, was titled at Peterhead, as we can scarcely believe it would be issued from a public office in London before previous inquiry had been made on the subject.

'As to signing the releases at the Custom House, neither the owners nor agents of the ship can compel the men to come to Lerwick for their wages, otherwise than they find it convenient for themselves. It would save us much trouble if they would wait in town a few hours after the ship's arrival, and receive their wages all at once at the Custom House; or, when they happen to be landed at a distance from Lerwick, if they could arrange to meet together here for the purpose at the same time.

'While matters remain as at present, whether these releases are signed or not, we can only do as we have always done in time past: pay the men promptly when they call. The supplies mentioned in the account now enclosed consist mostly of meal given to the men's families to account of their half-pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents, and servants' wages receiving and delivering it; so that, beyond the 21/2 per cent. commission on the wages, we have no inducement to continue in the trade.'

The abstract account above referred to is given below.*

* ABSTRACT ACCOUNT of WAGES paid by HAY & CO., Lerwick, to Shetlandmen belonging to Ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits Seal and Whale Fishery, during the years 1869, 1870, and 1871:-

Name of Ship Men Amount of Supplies before Paid in Wages and Sailing, and to Cash Oil-Money family during the Man's Absence 1869 Labrador 20 94 14 10 4 3 9 90 11 1 1869 Intrepid 28 355 0 21/2 71 19 51/2 283 0 9 1869 Alexander 21 272 19 8 31 14 11 241 4 9 Total 69 722 14 81/2 107 18 11/2 614 16 7 1870 Labrador 21 196 9 5 7 18 0 188 11 5 1870 Mazinthien16 226 18 0 49 7 1 177 10 11 1870 Eclipse 12 256 2 0 29 5 9 226 16 3 1870 Erik 30 562 0 6 66 17 41/2 495 3 11/2 Total 79 1241 9 11 153 8 21/2 1088 1 1/2

1871 Labrador 25 221 7 4 ...... 221 7 4 1871 Erik 26 138 2 5 8 15 3 129 7 2 1871 Eclipse# 1871 Mazinthein# 1871 Erik to D. Straits# 51 359 9 9 8 15 3 350 14 6 1869 69 722 14 81/2 107 18 11/2 614 16 7 1870 79 1241 9 11 153 8 21/2 1088 1 81/2 1871 51 359 9 9 8 15 3 350 14 6 199 2323 14 41/2 270 1 7 2053 12 9 1/2 Average per man for the three years 11 13 6 1 7 2 10 6 4

# Voyage not ended.

In conclusion, I have only to add, that Hay & Co. have given notice to their friends, the shipowners in Peterhead and Dundee, that they cannot continue any longer to act for them.

3624. You say in that statement that you manage four estates in the country: what are these estates?-There are two for which we act as factors-the estates of Lord Zetland, and Mr. Bruce of Simbister; and there are two of which we are lessees-the Burra islands, belonging to the Misses Scott of Scalloway, and the Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmavine.